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Originally Posted by propianist
This idea is not easy to implement and test, because obviously the required hardware is not commonplace.
Beyerdynamic Headzone Pro was on manufacturer's attempt at head-tracking headphones, but I can't think of many others... (off the top of my head, haha)

The hardware for determining head orientation is present in a number of recent Bose products, including the QC35s and the Frames. They've abandoned further audio "AR" development, though, and the SDK for making use of the abilities might not be available any more.

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I just tried the New York D, and compared with my Ivory American Concert D, I still prefer Ivory! In fact, at the Prelude preset, the synthesized sound of PianoTeq still exists. I'll just say, I wasn't convinced by how good it's sounding now -- the sampling is still much better and more inspiring to play.
propianist, I love your idea of head tracking! But to me, I'm not very much a moving person when sitting at the bench, and so I don't want my experience of the piano sound to be so unstable. Plus, I like playing the piano but hearing it as an audience member or someone close by, not as a player. But your idea might be able to work in 5 years, if not a decade. It's an expensive one, but very ambitious, and for those who need it, it would be a great plus!

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https://youtu.be/-kT_ukP-cOM

Above is a video on the latest version of PianoTeq I just found on YouTube.

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Originally Posted by Gamma1734
What about people who play with speakers?
I myself do.
But I am talking here specifically about Pianoteq's binaural mode with the virtual headphone position, for playing on headphones. If head-tracking positional data could be acquired by some 3rd party hardware (?) and sent back as MIDI parameter data into Pianoteq, live in realtime, then you could animate the virtual headphones orientation to follow your real physical head movements and you would hear a "virtual sonic binaural reality".

Originally Posted by Gamma1734
Or people who have very expensive headphones?
I myself do.
My planar magnetics weren't cheap!
However the emergence of a new breakthrough tech like VR headsets didn't frighten away everyone who already owned expensive 4K OLED televisions or home cinema projectors. In fact, those very people are the ones who are MOST keen to try out the new awesome VR experience, those are the people who are the real videophile enthusiasts!!!
Perhaps the only pianists who don't need to get excited about this are people who already own a real Steinway grand piano. Lucky gits.

Originally Posted by Gamma1734
I would like to test such a scenario to be able to decide what is more worth: Excellent sound quality or the feeling of being immersed? (Both would be perfect, obviously.)
If the headphones are bad it's still a question what feels better. It seems like a good idea, but often technologies have been good ideas (only, sadly) and still died at some point because something else won.
Yep, I'm hearing that on FM...!
I know we've witnessed quadraphonic sound, ambisonics, 5.1 surround, ultra high sample rates, etc. all never really going mainstream, and some just die away. Hopefully compressed MP3 will die away as computers can download uncompressed WAV fast enough nowadays.

But if someone never tried these ideas, in the first place, progress would never happen.

As I said before, a lot of the VR tech and hardware already exists to make it happen for video AND audio, so all I'm asking for is an audio only solution to be adapted via MIDI or USB to Pianoteq.
I still think the user could wear a headband or an illuminated baseball cap or something which could be easily used with your existing headphones without needing to replace them...?

Originally Posted by MacMacMac
I think 88 controls on a piano is quite enough. Beyond that ... if the makers can't set up the VST to sound reasonable with a preset or two or three then they haven't done their job properly.

Control parameters which act globally cannot apply the right amount of whatever to the treble notes without also messing up the bass notes - always a compromise. The 88 graphic slider approach allows user to draw a curve on the screen, which sculpts the given parameter to suit the desire. Yes the concept requires a little more intellectual understanding, but assuming you have this, it is 100% certain that 88 sliders is a better approach. That's why Pianoteq started doing it, and now others like VSL are doing it too. Offering a variable curve as a control rather than a fixed absolute value is essential to the success of the parameter. Where would you be without velocity curve graphs??? I remember when digital pianos had touch response HEAVY / MEDIUM / SOFT and that was crap. Surely you agree curves are progress. The 88 graphic slider is just that - a pictorial representation of a curve, which is quite appropriately quantized into 88 finite steps because there 88 keys to which the parameter is being applied.

Beyond that... one could have different 88 graphic slider parameters for different velocity ranges, with another slider that as you raise or lower it from 0-127 moves the 88 slider curve settings through their adjustments with respect to velocity.
Keep adding an extra dimension to the equation is a basic principle of advanced maths and science. eg. Einstein and Stephen Hawking didn't get where they got to by only considering the universe space-time in only 3 or 4 dimensions. You can keep adding complexity to a model if it does help beneficially. Nothing really new here.

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I've just upgraded and I regret it. No audible difference for e-pianos, Steinway B still has pianiteqish character. NY Steinway D sounds nice though, but I still prefer sample VSTs.

I will keep using PTQ occasionally since it cuts through dense mixes well.


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The Demonstration video is terrible, I don't want to hear drums and other things, I want to hear the new sound! And when listening to the NY demos, to be honest, it sounds completely the same as the pianoteq sound I am used to. I can't hear at all any changes in the slightest form. Quite disappointed because I was really waiting for this version.
And I totally agree with the comment about presets; Sometimes I made videos clicking on "Home", "Prelude" or "Recording", in the naive belief that they are valid presets. Because actually, there are people how have no time after 12 hours of work to spend hours tweaking some knobs and just want to play!
Oh, but NO, people would comment "oh but that just sounds not good now because you use the wrong presets" or "oh that sounds bad because you have to tweak those knobs at least 14794 hours like I did". A preset which is specifically addressing "classical recordings"? Come on....


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@Gamma1734: There are volumes written on the subject of usability. You are just the latest victim of poor usability. It's a shame. frown

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In version 6, I just pick Bechstein "Player" preset for playing, and "Venue" for recording, and call it a day. I don't tweak, both due to lack of time, but also because it would drive me crazy, to always try to find an optimal setting.

What do people usually tweak ? And is there a lot to obtain/improve by doing that ?


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I do have to admit the release with the intro video is poorly done. Version 4,5, and 6 it was about piano. What is this crap with drums and backing track.


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Originally Posted by Barde
In version 6, I just pick Bechstein "Player" preset for playing, and "Venue" for recording, and call it a day. I don't tweak, both due to lack of time, but also because it would drive me crazy, to always try to find an optimal setting.

Yah, that's me too. The defaults for the Bechstein are awesome; I rarely use anything else.


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Same, I always used the "intimate" Steinway D setting and call it a day.
I do think I added a custom reverb impulse file though, because I wanted sth darker.

https://www.modartt.com/modeld

Listened a bit, doesn't sound too different to v6 to my ears.


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Gamma1734 and MacMacMac,

The problem with any factory presets is "you can't please everybody."

Suppose me or somebody "tweaked those knobs at least 14794 hours" and got something dialed in that sounded almost perfect to me... but that's only to me, with my playing style and touch, playing from my Kawai MP8 keyboard action, listening through my own custom loudspeakers in my room, or on my headphones... even if I uploaded my "almost perfect" preset settings online and shared it, how does it help you? - since you own a different keyboard model, different speakers in a different room, or different headphones, different listening volume, different ear pinna, different biological age, etc., you'll never objectively hear the same sound I am hearing. Everything would need to be further tweaked (by you) to suit your hardware / listening conditions and personal taste. That's why manufacturers can never make presets that everybody likes, or even hears the same way.

Even if I invited you to come to my house, sit behind my keyboard and try it for yourself, with everything dialed how I like it, listening as I do, at my preferred distance and SPL volume, from the same sweetspot in front of same speakers, chances are you may not like what you're hearing, if your musical tastes and piano ideals aren't exactly the same as mine. Maybe one person's ideal piano tone is a smooth lyrical romantic sound to play Chopin nocturnes, whereas another person's ideal piano tone is a bright, very attacking sound to blast out some Jerry Lee Lewis boogie woogie rock 'n' roll. For sure they would disagree about which preset sound was best.

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Nothing for months, then 3 or 4 come along at once:
Kawai ES/DG
Korg Nautilus
Pianoteq 7

just like buses.


Instruments: Current - Kawai MP7SE; Past - Kawai MP7, Yamaha PSR7000
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Well, unlike buses you can get all of them at the same time wink


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What's new in version 7

Morphing
The instruments XyloHarp, VibraDrum or GlockenTines certainly do not exist. These are however three of the many instruments you can create with the acoustic Morphing introduced in Pianoteq 7 (Standard/PRO). This innovative technology handles the morphing at the physical modelling level, providing stunning acoustic authenticity to instruments that never existed.

Layering
On popular demand, Modartt adds a new layering feature in Pianoteq 7 (Standard/PRO) allowing to mix several instruments, e.g. playing Bass Marimba in the low range, Xylophone in the upper range and mixing both together in the middle range. The difference between Morphing and Layering is that in the latter the two sounds are mixed together, whereas in Morphing the instrument Physics itself is being morphed.

Refined physical model
Modartt introduces a new refinement in its physical model: the double polarization. It consists in modelling string vibrations that can take any direction, e.g. parallel or perpendicular to the soundboard. The new physical model allows more complex tones to be produced, and as observed by a pianist, the sound becomes "three-dimensional". It also allows longer sustain, particularly in the bass range, with notes lasting up to a couple of minutes, just like on a real acoustic piano. All pianos in Pianoteq 7 are constructed and revoiced using this new physical model.

New grand piano modelled after a New York Steinway Model D
In collaboration with Steinway & Sons, Modartt has recorded a beautiful new Model D Concert Grand at the famous New York Steinway Hall. The reference piano was the very first produced of Steinway’s groundbreaking new flagship instrument — the Model D Spirio|r, and has been used by some of the most famous pianists in the world today. The new New York Steinway Model D for Pianoteq accompanies the existing Hamburg Steinway D and provides the famous Steinway concert piano sound with superb musical expression.

...

So, we need some experiments now to measure this longer sustain and to compare vs. 6 and 7 to see if this double polarization can be discerned.

I guess the morphing is a bit faddish; however, the layering is a development is it not?


Instruments: Current - Kawai MP7SE; Past - Kawai MP7, Yamaha PSR7000
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Originally Posted by CyberGene
Well, unlike buses you can get all of them at the same time wink

Unless you're Doc-Ock, how you going to play them all together wink

Last edited by Doug M.; 11/10/20 05:51 PM.

Instruments: Current - Kawai MP7SE; Past - Kawai MP7, Yamaha PSR7000
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Tested it (got the Upgrade for free) and found it a bit more pleasant. It's a bit less "digital" and all the custom settings i got from the FXP Corner sound a bit more natural on Version 7.


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Originally Posted by Tyr
Tested it (got the Upgrade for free) and found it a bit more pleasant. It's a bit less "digital" and all the custom settings i got from the FXP Corner sound a bit more natural on Version 7.

Are you able to record some 6 versus 7 for us?


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I have found the Steinway (either Hamburg or New York) improved compared to the Model D v6. It makes it more useful, as are the Bechstein, Petrof or the Steingraber. An huge improvement !


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That's right. You can't please everyone. That's life.

But with each of my favorite VSTs there are only a couple of adjustments. Done.
Not dozens. Not hundreds. And I'm very pleased.

Factory presets are not a problem. They're a blessing.
Originally Posted by propianist
The problem with any factory presets is "you can't please everybody."

Suppose me or somebody "tweaked those knobs at least 14794 hours" and got something dialed in that sounded almost perfect to me... but that's only to me, with my playing style and touch, playing from my Kawai MP8 keyboard action, listening through my own custom loudspeakers in my room, or on my headphones... even if I uploaded my "almost perfect" preset settings online and shared it, how does it help you? - since you own a different keyboard model, different speakers in a different room, or different headphones, different listening volume, different ear pinna, different biological age, etc., you'll never objectively hear the same sound I am hearing. Everything would need to be further tweaked (by you) to suit your hardware / listening conditions and personal taste. That's why manufacturers can never make presets that everybody likes, or even hears the same way.

Even if I invited you to come to my house, sit behind my keyboard and try it for yourself, with everything dialed how I like it, listening as I do, at my preferred distance and SPL volume, from the same sweetspot in front of same speakers, chances are you may not like what you're hearing, if your musical tastes and piano ideals aren't exactly the same as mine. Maybe one person's ideal piano tone is a smooth lyrical romantic sound to play Chopin nocturnes, whereas another person's ideal piano tone is a bright, very attacking sound to blast out some Jerry Lee Lewis boogie woogie rock 'n' roll. For sure they would disagree about which preset sound was best.
Chances are that I WOULD like what I'm hearing ... and so would lots of other people.

I'm guessing that you're a perfectionist.

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