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Originally Posted by pyropaul
All this nonsense about all keys in ET being the all same. It's completely incorrect! The speed of the ET thirds changes from key to key anyway if your ET is truly progressive. Many compositions are in certain keys as much for playability or singability as much as anything else. Also the instruments the composers used originally had different inharmonicity values compared to modern concert grands so any temperament on them would sound quite different to the same scheme on a modern piano. And as for the false assertion that classical music is less popular now due to ET?!! There's never been as many classical music listeners in absolute terms as today. Never!

Greetings,
to your points:
1. the speed of thirds does increase as one goes up the keyboard. However, we hear logarithmically and the tempering sounds the same.
2. None of Beethoven's sonatas was written for sing ability, and he certainly wasn't looking for the easy way to play
3. Yes the older pianos had different inharmonicity, but that hardly is a case to apply the modern ET to them.
4. In absolute terms, yes, there are more people. As a percentage of the music heard, far less.
Regards,

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When I discuss these matters with others, I do not present anything (e.g. ET or UT) as superior or inferior to the other. I simply help them to understand that GENERALLY SPEAKING, this is the way keyboards were tuned in those time periods, with some variation, but still centered around relative consonance in the simpler keys of C, F, G, etc. The result is various "colorations" in all the keys, but the basic pattern was universal enough that good musicians could identify the key being played in simply by listening to the tonality of that key.

ET has it's place in history. Modern music almost demands it. It is a universal, general purpose, all around temperament in which anything and everything sounds reasonably good (assuming it is well executed). But UT of one form or another is what the composers and musicians heard 200+ years ago, and they used it to their musical/emotional advantage. So, if one WANTS to get a little more authentic about it they can choose to have their instrument tuned in a UT (again wisely chosen and well executed).

Personally I like a mild UT for the most part. If I go for more it's Young's rules tuned to personal taste. This is because I LIKE the consonants, and I rarely play in anything beyond 3 accidentals (unless I'm in a real MOOD).

Maybe ET was used by some 200 years ago. Nobody is alive now to verify one way or another. Terminology changes over time. I prefer not to be dogmatic about it. I have no absolute data to prove it one way or another.

Peter Grey Piano Doctor


Peter W. Grey, RPT
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Originally Posted by P W Grey
ET has it's place in history. Modern music almost demands it. It is a universal, general purpose, all around temperament in which anything and everything sounds reasonably good (assuming it is well executed).

Peter, actually not. For many years I've demonstrated modern music to benefit from it.
Debussy https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GdFXGkqE-MM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pIneuz5ueDY
https://youtu.be/k61eHv9piMc?t=3780
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SthGamF8qIQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NXVShKy0LP4

Rachmaninoff
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=urDxcJIYj9I

Rebecca Clarke
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJcOSUnGSsk

Jazz
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wdMbiOlw9s

Gershwin
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nCcRGSvgmz8

Ravel
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJF4fTdu2bU

Benjamin Britten
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sboyVManGAk

John Cage
https://youtu.be/k61eHv9piMc?t=3427

Berg
https://youtu.be/k61eHv9piMc?t=5856 (In Kirnberger)

Carlo Vine
https://youtu.be/mnTDkj5dYYc?t=6669

Arvo Paart
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O7v5jYkw13w

Best wishes

David P


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David,

When you wrote:

"Peter, actually not. For many years I've demonstrated modern music to benefit from it.
Debussy"

I'm assuming you meant UT, not ET. Am I reading you correctly?

Peter Grey Piano Doctor


Peter W. Grey, RPT
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Originally Posted by P W Grey
I'm assuming you meant UT, not ET. Am I reading you correctly?
Oh yes!

It's also remarkable how the mid-Victorian Broadwoods could take a really strong UT - here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8t7l5OQKz2Y Poulenc with Kirnberger. The 3rd and 4th movements are deliberately wonky. The instrument had only recently been restrung and those movements recorded before one of the retunings. This is an 1869 cottage grand - and very ideal for accompanying.

Best wishes

David P


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Here's a good example contrasting modern "machine gun" playing https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VJ8i7ao1lyE with a good sensitive performer at the Nice International Piano Competition last year. When pianists have a more interesting sound to listen to they react to the music and in that is the aural meaning.

Best wishes

David P


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- http://www.organmatters.com -
http://hammerwood.mistral.co.uk/tuning-seminar.pdf
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Originally Posted by Unequally tempered
It's also remarkable how the mid-Victorian Broadwoods could take a really strong UT - here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8t7l5OQKz2Y Poulenc with Kirnberger. The 3rd and 4th movements are deliberately wonky. The instrument had only recently been restrung and those movements recorded before one of the retunings. This is an 1869 cottage grand - and very ideal for accompanying.

I remember hearing Mozart on your 1859 Broadwood grand tuned in UT. It was amazing.

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Thanks - https://youtu.be/k61eHv9piMc?t=4847 might have been that.

There are also recordings of one of our first UT concerts on an 1854 Emerich Betsy - on its original rusty strings before restringing - low pitch as strings on point of breaking
https://jungleboffin.com/mp4/jill-crossland-unequal-tempered-fortepiano/mozart-fantasia.mp3

https://jungleboffin.com/mp4/jill-crossland-unequal-tempered-fortepiano/mozart-sonata.mp3

https://jungleboffin.com/mp4/jill-c...epiano/mozart-twinkle-jill-crossland.mp3

and the real exciting test -
https://jungleboffin.com/mp4/jill-crossland-unequal-tempered-fortepiano/well-tempered-bach.mp3

and I'd like to repeat that concert with our more modern instrument, or the Betsy now restrung
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7JF3YzTG7lU

Best wishes

David P


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Here's another piece of "modern" music in unequal temperament - the Cesar Franck violin sonata https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7O-guxH7Ggg

Does the temperament detract? Or the reverse?

Best wishes

David P


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Prokofiev
8th piano sonata - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KmDwrF7xq5Q
7th piano sonata
- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VkXlvZR7Oc8
- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BuBNGlR6Cao

Is ET vitally necessary for this repertoire? Or are those who promote it merely fearing redundancy?

Best wishes

David P

Last edited by Unequally tempered; 11/03/20 06:43 AM.

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David,

It sounds very nice to me.

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Thanks Peter!

From memory you tune unequal temperament also don't you?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sboyVManGAk is some Benjamin Britten, by the way.

Best wishes

David P


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David,

Yes I do. Largely I tune EBVT, but when someone is super serious about UT I offer Thomas Youngs 1799 rules according to personal taste.

Peter Grey Piano Doctor


Peter W. Grey, RPT
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I find that more spice in the mix produces more enthusiasm, as well as potentially adding to the resonance of the instrument - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sb6pt3OvU_o


Best wishes

David P

Last edited by Unequally tempered; 11/20/20 06:32 PM.

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David,

I watched this. It's great! Thanks!

Many months ago you and I discussed this tuning style and you sent me to a website to get instructions for tuning it aurally. I have tried, and I am not convinced that I have it correct. I fou d it difficult to follow the procedure there. I am wondering if you could provide a video or simply audio of the scale (temperament region and a little beyond) playing chromatic intervals (3rds, 4ths, 5ths) so that I can hear the desired RESULT. I believe I can figure out my own procedure to duplicate it aurally if I hear this. Any helpful verbal descriptions along the way could also be useful.

I eventually want to pique the interest of my better clients who already are sold on UT. I want to get their take on it, but as you know in like to use my brain, ears, and hands, rather than a machine. (No offense to those who use ETD's...its just me). Do you think you could do this?

Edit: Preferably with temperament strip in and only one string per note sounding (for greater clarity).

Peter Grey Piano Doctor

Last edited by P W Grey; 11/20/20 06:52 PM.

Peter W. Grey, RPT
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Peter - I sent details on email.

https://www.hpschd.nu/tech/tmp/kellner.html has details of tuning by ear, but I apply a twist or two. For tuners who conventionally tune fifths not on the fundamentals but by listening to the 2nd harmonic of the higher note and the 3rd harmonic of the lower note, it's better to use a machine, and Android apps are available. gStrings is a good one - nothing too sophisticated.

In Europe Vogel CTS5 tuners are used particularly by organ builders and some harpsichord and piano professionals and it's one of these that has assisted me in getting particularly reliable results in recent years. In the stroboscopic display there are nuances visible where out of tune harmonics can be seen to be running through the main display of the fundamental note and this is a very helpful indication as to where to listen particularly to what one is doing, to make choices on what one can hear rather than blindly following a machine display.

I don't follow standard tuning curves and in the bass have my own method of achieving maximum resonance.

Best wishes,

David P


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David,

I shall try again. ☺

Peter Grey Piano Doctor


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pianodoctor57@gmail.com
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