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Re: Lisitsa records Einaudi album
bSharp(C)yclist #3040653 10/29/20 11:46 AM
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Originally Posted by bSharp(C)yclist
If listening to music inspires you in a positive way or induces a positive feeling inside, how can it be wrong? Why care about who wrote it or how "well" it was written? I see many saying the could write better music. Then do so. I challenge you to make as much money as Einaudi! And maybe that's where the hatred comes from? Jealousy? I don't get it ...

I am all tolerant regarding music taste of people and really don't care who loves what. Whatever makes people happy 👍🏻

HOWEVER! Money is not how one measures the quality of music. Or otherwise we should praise Justin Bieber, Jeniffer Lopez, etc, and not be allowed to question its quality perhaps?


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Re: Lisitsa records Einaudi album
CyberGene #3040665 10/29/20 12:23 PM
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Originally Posted by CyberGene
Originally Posted by bSharp(C)yclist
If listening to music inspires you in a positive way or induces a positive feeling inside, how can it be wrong? Why care about who wrote it or how "well" it was written? I see many saying the could write better music. Then do so. I challenge you to make as much money as Einaudi! And maybe that's where the hatred comes from? Jealousy? I don't get it ...

I am all tolerant regarding music taste of people and really don't care who loves what. Whatever makes people happy 👍🏻

HOWEVER! Money is not how one measures the quality of music. Or otherwise we should praise Justin Bieber, Jeniffer Lopez, etc, and not be allowed to question its quality perhaps?

Sure, I can agree with that. But how are we measuring quality of music in this thread? What is the definition of quality music?


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Re: Lisitsa records Einaudi album
FloRi89 #3040740 10/29/20 03:02 PM
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Originally Posted by FloRi89
Originally Posted by bennevis
Why not start a thread about the recording in ABF instead (as I was gently hinting earlier) if you really want a 'friendly discussion'?? (- as Chrispy's thread seemingly got ignored because of his title).

That's a high level of gatekeeping, even for classical music. So if something get's posted here that you don't like the poster and everyone doesn't agree with you will be snarked upon and attacked until the thread is closed? Did you know that Einaudi actually seems to be quite humble about his success? Maybe you should take that as an example.
I know nothing about him, and I don't care to.

I was merely giving a helpful suggestion, as is my wont. (I give helpful suggestions all the time, to all and sundry....... cool)


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
Re: Lisitsa records Einaudi album
Chrispy #3040742 10/29/20 03:08 PM
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I don’t know how we measure it but I know how we do not: by its profitability.

I’d say that “quality” is a multi-faceted term that has no clear meaning for everyone. I’d risk choosing a definition though 😀 As silly as that is. I’ll base my definition on the grounds we’re in the classical piano forum. How likely it is that this music will be studied by classical pianists, and how often it will be performed and recorded by classical pianists, and then how likely it is that it can enter classical music theory books or classes. I’d say highly unlikely. It’s all subjective, I know 😛

Last edited by CyberGene; 10/29/20 03:09 PM.

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Re: Lisitsa records Einaudi album
bSharp(C)yclist #3040744 10/29/20 03:12 PM
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Originally Posted by bSharp(C)yclist
But how are we measuring quality of music in this thread? What is the definition of quality music?
Quality is quite easy to define in music.

For instance:

This is quality:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U37SB4i54JU

.....and this isn't:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HkgCN-ogAjY

Spot the difference. They are both easy to play, and of similar level of difficulty, both use simple straightforward harmonies, and both have well-defined singable tunes.

And one is a lot more popular than the other......... whistle


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
Re: Lisitsa records Einaudi album
Chrispy #3040893 10/30/20 12:55 AM
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It was hardly an identical thread in ABF. I posted there because Monica K, who was a valued member, and friend to many here, loved Einaudi and that video made me think of her. She passed away and I thought others would enjoy a tribute. It certainly wasn't posted to "spread the cause", and it's honestly pretty despicable of you to suggest posting to the thread for that reason. But bennevis, over the years I've noted that despicable seems to be your modus operandi, so I can't say I'm surprised. Anyway, please do not add comments to the ABF post for any other reason than to honor Monica K, and certainly don't do it to start any kind of flame war.

Last edited by Chrispy; 10/30/20 12:57 AM.

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Re: Lisitsa records Einaudi album
bennevis #3040900 10/30/20 02:13 AM
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Originally Posted by bennevis
Originally Posted by bSharp(C)yclist
But how are we measuring quality of music in this thread? What is the definition of quality music?
Quality is quite easy to define in music.

For instance:

This is quality:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U37SB4i54JU

.....and this isn't:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HkgCN-ogAjY

Spot the difference. They are both easy to play, and of similar level of difficulty, both use simple straightforward harmonies, and both have well-defined singable tunes.

And one is a lot more popular than the other......... whistle
Thanks for illustrating that quality is not easy to define in music. In fact, judging by these examples and your post, it's practically impossible.

It's one thing to say you don't like certain types of music; but saying that one music is better than the other is something else.


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Re: Lisitsa records Einaudi album
CyberGene #3040904 10/30/20 02:26 AM
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Originally Posted by CyberGene
I don’t know how we measure it but I know how we do not: by its profitability.

I’d say that “quality” is a multi-faceted term that has no clear meaning for everyone. I’d risk choosing a definition though 😀 As silly as that is. I’ll base my definition on the grounds we’re in the classical piano forum. How likely it is that this music will be studied by classical pianists, and how often it will be performed and recorded by classical pianists, and then how likely it is that it can enter classical music theory books or classes. I’d say highly unlikely. It’s all subjective, I know 😛

This is quite literally a thread about one of the best classical pianists in the world playing this repertoire. Wouldn’t that mean it’s high quality in your own definition.

Also I would like to add that before Gould made the famous recording of the Goldberg Variations it wasn’t regarded as quality repertoire. He made it famous and since then everyone considers it as high quality. Same is true for a lot of composers (usually they need to be dead, probably Einaudis biggest problem in the classical world)

Just face it, quality is impossible to define for art. Always has been. Comparisons are doomed, just let people enjoy the music they like.

Re: Lisitsa records Einaudi album
Chrispy #3040921 10/30/20 04:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Chrispy
It certainly wasn't posted to "spread the cause"
Really?? OK, I believe you, if you say so......

Quote
and it's honestly pretty despicable of you to suggest posting to the thread for that reason.
Are you serious??
Quote
But bennevis, over the years I've noted that despicable seems to be your modus operandi, so I can't say I'm surprised. Anyway, please do not add comments to the ABF post for any other reason than to honor Monica K, and certainly don't do it to start any kind of flame war.
Pray, enlighten me as to the real reason why you started this thread in this forum (which you hardly, if ever, post in) - immediately after another one on exactly the same person was shut down, if it wasn't to start another flame war. Which you got.

Let me remind you I wasn't part of any of that, in either thread.

Incidentally, if I may make a polite suggestion to you, put me on "ignore" as I am obviously "despicable" to you (and I wouldn't want to keep on being 'despicable' to anybody: my innate sense of decorum forbids it........ smirk ).


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
Re: Lisitsa records Einaudi album
patH #3040922 10/30/20 04:33 AM
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Originally Posted by patH
Originally Posted by bennevis
Quality is quite easy to define in music.

For instance:

This is quality:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U37SB4i54JU

.....and this isn't:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HkgCN-ogAjY

Spot the difference. They are both easy to play, and of similar level of difficulty, both use simple straightforward harmonies, and both have well-defined singable tunes.

And one is a lot more popular than the other......... whistle
Thanks for illustrating that quality is not easy to define in music. In fact, judging by these examples and your post, it's practically impossible.

It's one thing to say you don't like certain types of music; but saying that one music is better than the other is something else.
You don't think there's a difference in quality (of composition and 'inspiration') in my two examples?


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
Re: Lisitsa records Einaudi album
bennevis #3040936 10/30/20 05:23 AM
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Originally Posted by bennevis
Originally Posted by patH
Originally Posted by bennevis
Quality is quite easy to define in music.

For instance:

This is quality:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U37SB4i54JU

.....and this isn't:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HkgCN-ogAjY

Spot the difference. They are both easy to play, and of similar level of difficulty, both use simple straightforward harmonies, and both have well-defined singable tunes.

And one is a lot more popular than the other......... whistle
Thanks for illustrating that quality is not easy to define in music. In fact, judging by these examples and your post, it's practically impossible.

It's one thing to say you don't like certain types of music; but saying that one music is better than the other is something else.
You don't think there's a difference in quality (of composition and 'inspiration') in my two examples?
Considering there are no universally agreed upon standards regarding quality of composition and inspiration...

You yourself admitted it. You claimed that both pieces use "simple straightforward harmonies". But while the Maiden's Prayer uses the same harmonies in a loop (a variation technique that paves the way to Einaudi and Tiersen), the Mozart piece modulates in various major and minor keys. In other words: You are comparing apples to oranges and saying that apples are better, because oranges don't taste or feel like apples.

It's like if I was comparing Shostakovich's 7th symphony to Cage's 4'33". Both pieces are milestones of classical music in the 20th century. But how do you measure their quality? Answer: You don't.
Just like with Mozart, Einaudi or whoever. There is no good or bad music. Therr is just music you like or you don't.


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Re: Lisitsa records Einaudi album
patH #3040937 10/30/20 05:39 AM
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Originally Posted by patH
You yourself admitted it. You claimed that both pieces use "simple straightforward harmonies". But while the Maiden's Prayer uses the same harmonies in a loop (a variation technique that paves the way to Einaudi and Tiersen), the Mozart piece modulates in various major and minor keys. In other words: You are comparing apples to oranges and saying that apples are better, because oranges don't taste or feel like apples.

Or he is saying that modulating is better then looping, witch of course is a valid personal opinion, but isn't objectifiable. The same goes for "what I like is good music", that is also a valid personal opinion, and certainly true for yourself, but as so many people have learned before, not an universal truth.

Re: Lisitsa records Einaudi album
Chrispy #3040954 10/30/20 06:54 AM
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I thought I had said to tone the snark down.. I did say that, didn't I?

Let me be clear.. Let's stop the insulting. You don't like someone's music? Scroll on by. It's not like you are paying to be here. If you want to stir things up, let me tell you how I will fix it.

One click on your name next to your post. Then a menu comes up and I click "Edit User". Your very own user config page comes up. I click the "Permissions" tab. On that page I put a check in the box that says "Ban User". Then the scroll box for duration. Then click the update button.

It's funny, you do that a couple times and the problems magically go away.


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Re: Lisitsa records Einaudi album
Chrispy #3040956 10/30/20 06:59 AM
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I think it's interesting that Lisitsa made this recording. I have quite a lot of music in this "genre" which fits a certain mood for me. I don't subscribe to debates about quality but in this clip here I think it offers a bit of a fun template for discussing the quality of a melody when comparing apples to apples for style:

Gusty Garden Galaxy's Perfect Melody
https://youtu.be/CYE2DOybFV0

Re: Lisitsa records Einaudi album
bennevis #3040980 10/30/20 08:37 AM
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Originally Posted by bennevis
You don't think there's a difference in quality (of composition and 'inspiration') in my two examples?

No, it's completely subjective. There is nothing quantifiable or measurable. You don't state the reason why, other than to say spot the difference. It's no better than a used car salesman saying buy this car because I think the quality is better, without giving any reason why.

Now, I do agree with first video is better. But there are so many confounding factors here. It could be because the first shows static pictures, the 2nd shows the performer. Lang Lang's recording are good I think, I enjoy listening ... but not when I am looking at him.

Last edited by bSharp(C)yclist; 10/30/20 08:38 AM.

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Re: Lisitsa records Einaudi album
FloRi89 #3040987 10/30/20 08:55 AM
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Originally Posted by FloRi89
Also I would like to add that before Gould made the famous recording of the Goldberg Variations it wasn’t regarded as quality repertoire.

It was regarded as a masterpiece.

Re: Lisitsa records Einaudi album
patH #3040993 10/30/20 09:19 AM
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Originally Posted by patH
You claimed that both pieces use "simple straightforward harmonies". But while the Maiden's Prayer uses the same harmonies in a loop (a variation technique that paves the way to Einaudi and Tiersen), the Mozart piece modulates in various major and minor keys. In other words: You are comparing apples to oranges and saying that apples are better, because oranges don't taste or feel like apples.
OK, perhaps using Mozart to compare with The Maiden's Prayer wasn't the best example. I was looking for a piano piece written in a simple style, and Mozart immediately came to mind.......but even his earliest pieces (composed when he was six) shows him modulating to the dominant, and using liberal accidentals in his melodies too. Though - as always with Wolfie - you don't actually notice those accidentals, because they sound so utterly natural, as if they couldn't possibly be written any other way.

Maybe that's what marks him out as a great composer: the Art that conceals Art. Or - surface simplicity masking great complexity and ingenuity.


Originally Posted by bSharp(C)yclist
No, it's completely subjective. There is nothing quantifiable or measurable. You don't state the reason why, other than to say spot the difference.
OK, I've given my reason above.

Now - challenge me grin.


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
Re: Lisitsa records Einaudi album
bennevis #3040997 10/30/20 09:32 AM
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Originally Posted by bennevis
Originally Posted by patH
You claimed that both pieces use "simple straightforward harmonies". But while the Maiden's Prayer uses the same harmonies in a loop (a variation technique that paves the way to Einaudi and Tiersen), the Mozart piece modulates in various major and minor keys. In other words: You are comparing apples to oranges and saying that apples are better, because oranges don't taste or feel like apples.
OK, perhaps using Mozart to compare with The Maiden's Prayer wasn't the best example. I was looking for a piano piece written in a simple style, and Mozart immediately came to mind.......but even his earliest pieces (composed when he was six) shows him modulating to the dominant, and using liberal accidentals in his melodies too. Though - as always with Wolfie - you don't actually notice those accidentals, because they sound so utterly natural, as if they couldn't possibly be written any other way.

Maybe that's what marks him out as a great composer: the Art that conceals Art. Or - surface simplicity masking great complexity and ingenuity.


Originally Posted by bSharp(C)yclist
No, it's completely subjective. There is nothing quantifiable or measurable. You don't state the reason why, other than to say spot the difference.
OK, I've given my reason above.

Now - challenge me grin.


Please stop asking for proof that Einaudi is comparable to Mozart. Many composers are not, but can still be enjoyed. You don’t like Einaudi? Fine, don’t like him.


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Re: Lisitsa records Einaudi album
johnstaf #3040998 10/30/20 09:35 AM
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Originally Posted by johnstaf
Originally Posted by FloRi89
Also I would like to add that before Gould made the famous recording of the Goldberg Variations it wasn’t regarded as quality repertoire.

It was regarded as a masterpiece.
I agree.

Before Gould came along, Wanda Landowska's performances and recording (on a massive harpsichord that JSB would have baulked at) of the Goldberg were already the stuff of legends, as were Rosalyn Tureck's (on piano). Apparently, Gould said that Tureck was "the only influence" on him.

Gould's recording just made the Goldberg fashionable among the non-classical 'celebrities' of the time.......and of today's time. I've lost count of how many celebrities (major as well as minor) cite Gould's Goldberg as their only 'classical' record in the radio programs 'Desert Island Discs' and 'Private Passions', though his recording is hardly ever mentioned by classical concert pianists or harpsichordists, except as an interesting sideline.


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
Re: Lisitsa records Einaudi album
dogperson #3040999 10/30/20 09:37 AM
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Originally Posted by dogperson
Originally Posted by bennevis
OK, perhaps using Mozart to compare with The Maiden's Prayer wasn't the best example. I was looking for a piano piece written in a simple style, and Mozart immediately came to mind.......but even his earliest pieces (composed when he was six) shows him modulating to the dominant, and using liberal accidentals in his melodies too. Though - as always with Wolfie - you don't actually notice those accidentals, because they sound so utterly natural, as if they couldn't possibly be written any other way.

Maybe that's what marks him out as a great composer: the Art that conceals Art. Or - surface simplicity masking great complexity and ingenuity.



OK, I've given my reason above.

Now - challenge me grin.


Please stop asking for proof that Einaudi is comparable to Mozart. Many composers are not, but can still be enjoyed. You don’t like Einaudi? Fine, don’t like him.
Huh??

I wasn't talking about Einaudi. (He didn't write The Maiden's Prayer).

Please listen to the links I gave, before jumping the gun.


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
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