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Guitar Center Mulls Restructuring
#3040884 10/29/20 11:44 PM
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Guitar Center (Musician's Friend), the largest musical instruments retailer in the US, is considering bankruptcy, according to Bloomberg. GC missed interest payments this month. The human malware situation and difficulty sourcing gear are contributing factors.

I worked at the local sporting goods store as a child so have a view. Your lawyer and banker will have more informed opinions.

It is difficult to speculate what this means for consumers. I WILL BUY EARLY AND OFTEN, with caveats including:

- Equipment vendors are reluctant to sell to GC and may confiscate some inventory lol. So if you are considering music gear purchases for the autumn or winter, GC may have a better selection now than they will going forward. I would not assume firesale prices going forward based on prior liquidity events but that is impossible to predict.

- For all purchases, I might use a credit card with "good protection". For in-store purchases, maybe leave the store with all the gear I paid for.

- CAUTION. I would NOT make any deposits or down payments on equipment. I would NOT leave any equipment in a store for repair, preparation, consignment sale, etc. The cash & equipment may become difficult or impossible to retrieve.

Gibson and Fender guitars have a lot of exposure so maybe, combined with the human-malware situation, guitar warranty claims from the store or Gibson/Fender are a bit less "certain". I don't know what other major vendors have major exposure to GC; Yamaha does good volumes but is the largest global musical instrument maker. A few GC managers in second & third tier cities told me they never saw a Kawai instrument in-store (I have seen some Kawai digital pianos in the NYC store).

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Re: Guitar Center Mulls Restructuring
newer player #3040899 10/30/20 02:05 AM
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I have to say that I wouldn't miss GC if they vanished. They sell only low-level and junk-level pianos that I'm not interested in.

Maybe the situation is different with guitars and drums?

Meanwhile the Sam Ash stores I've visited sell much better quality goods. It's like night and day.

Re: Guitar Center Mulls Restructuring
newer player #3040915 10/30/20 04:02 AM
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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
I have to say that I wouldn't miss GC if they vanished. They sell only low-level and junk-level pianos that I'm not interested in.

Maybe the situation is different with guitars and drums?

Meanwhile the Sam Ash stores I've visited sell much better quality goods. It's like night and day.

Sam Ash barely exists - only 45 locations - and Guitar Center factually doesn't "only sell junk". They sell top-level synths and you can even order cabinet pianos from them ( https://www.guitarcenter.com/Yamaha-Clavinovas.gc ). Sounds more like you've never actually BEEN to Guitar Center and just wanted to trash them. They also sell basically every major stage piano that gets discussed here, except Kawai but basically no one sells Kawai stuff in the US for whatever reason. And MOST people have to start at the low level. This is really bad news for the hobby as a whole. Pianos over $500 are NOT "entry level" no matter how people want to label them. If Guitar Center disappears, it will much harder for kids to start the hobby unless a replacement shows up. It would be nice if Sam Ash was nationwide but they're not. It's great that YOU have that option but 90+% of the country doesn't.
Originally Posted by newer player
The human malware situation

Calling it "human malware" isn't funny. That doesn't even make sense because "malware" is just short for "malicious software". COVID-19 isn't software. It's far more dangerous than "software". That's extremely disrespectful to the 1.18 million people (and counting) that have died to the virus.

Re: Guitar Center Mulls Restructuring
newer player #3040924 10/30/20 04:37 AM
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Yes, there aren't many Sam Ash stores. That's unfortunate.

But please don't talk trash. I have indeed been to Guitar Centers ... three different stores.

There's one here nearby, west of Raleigh. Their best piano was an RD2000. Best by far.
Everything else was deep low end. And then there were three Williams pianos ... the bottom of the bottom.

When I lived in Florida I visited the GC in Hallandale. They, too, carried only the low-end.
Two of the pianos on display were not working ... one of them broken, cracked down the middle.
What kind of management allows such a trashy retail floor?

Meanwhile the Sam Ash in Pompano Beach had a broad range of pianos, with one section devoted to consoles, and a separate section for stage pianos.
Prices ranged from well under $1000 to over $3000.
At that time the high-end goods, both Yamaha and Kawai, were restricted to piano dealers and not available to music stores. But they had a range of Arius pianos.
I cannot remember whether they had any Kawai, but I do remember the Kawai "sample key mechanism" on display in its plastic case. That leads me to think they had some Kawais, but I don't remember seeing one.

The situation has changed today. I'm not sure when the change happened... but the Sam Ash in Raleigh had Yamahas all the way up to the CLP685.
And a great price on the 645 PE ... only $2800.
The piano section was pristine ... better displayed than what I've seen at some proper piano dealers.
They had a bench at each piano, and all pianos were in working condition ... but no Kawais.
The stage piano section had at least a half dozen models on display, all working.

Two Sam Ash stores ... clean, pristine, professional.
Three Guitar Centers ... ill-kept, limited offerings, unappealing.

My kids grew up with flute and clarinet. We bought instruments at a local music shop.
That shop services children especially. The local middle- and high-schools recommended the store to the kids in the band.
Our north-county store had a half-dozen console pianos on display. All were working.
The store was far better kept than the GC.

So how exactly will a GC bankruptcy affect kids' entry into music?

Re: Guitar Center Mulls Restructuring
newer player #3040926 10/30/20 04:47 AM
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This is good advice ...
Originally Posted by newer player
- I would NOT make any deposits or down payments on equipment.
- I would NOT leave any equipment in a store for repair, preparation, consignment sale, etc. The cash & equipment may become difficult or impossible to retrieve.
... because Moody's has downgraded them several times over the past three years.
That includes downgrades BEFORE the corona virus era:
Code
21 May 2020	Downgrades Guitar Center CFR to Ca following distressed exchange
10 Apr 2020	Downgrades Guitar Center CFR to Caa3
21 Feb 2020	Downgrades Guitar Center CFR to Caa2; outlook negative
30 Apr 2019	Revises Guitar Center outlook to stable from negative; CFR affirmed at Caa1
17 Apr 2018	Upgrades Guitar Center PDR to Caa1/LD, affirms CFR at Caa1
14 Mar 2018	Downgrades Guitar Center PDR to Ca-PD; Caa1 CFR affirmed, new ratings assigned to proposed refinancing and exchange transaction
28 Nov 2017	Downgrades Guitar Center to Caa1; outlook negative
28 Sep 2017	Downgrades Guitar Center Inc. to B3; on review for further downgrade
12 Apr 2017	Revises Guitar Center outlook to negative

Re: Guitar Center Mulls Restructuring
newer player #3040941 10/30/20 06:01 AM
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I believe GC has been in Chapter 11 (restructuring) bankruptcy for many years. At one point, Mitt Romney, while at Bain Capital, bought the debt.

There are non-brick and mortar online stores that benefit from GC's wide presence, where people try at GC and buy online.

I'm in Hollywood and the GC and SA are across Sunset Blvd. from each other. This is GC's flagship and has an insane guitar department (as well as the totally cool hand-print walkway). It's GC, not PC! The SA has Kawai (but not the new ones just yet) and a decent ww/brass section (with repair). The GC is bigger and was just remodeled. It has superb drum, audio, etc. departments. DJ stuff is big at all of these types of stores.

GC also owns "Music & Arts," which specializes in band instruments (especially rentals) and is how many kids get their first clarinet, trumpet, etc.

There are many online only* shops: Sweetwater, Zzounds, American Musical Supply; they all basically sell the same thing at the same price. Kraft is the one that specializes in keyboards and carries Kawai. *Kraft and Sweetwater each have one store.

All of these stores have benefited immensely because of Covid. I couldn't get a digital piano for weeks due to short supply (many new entry level buyers with time on their hands).

My view is that GC's many B&M stores hurt them due to high costs and inability to compete with online only outfits. They don't offer in house financing, as do Zzounds and AMS.

Last edited by Skyscrapersax; 10/30/20 06:02 AM.

Selmer Mark VI Tenor (‘73) & Alto Sax (‘57), Yamaha YSS-62 Soprano Sax (‘87), Conn Naked Lady Baritone Sax (‘52), Conn New Wonder Tenor & Alto Sax (‘24), Yamaha WX5 Wind Synth (‘13), Kawai MP11 & ES-110, Numa Compact 2x, Casio PX5S, Roland VR-09, Hammond E-112 (‘69).
Re: Guitar Center Mulls Restructuring
newer player #3040953 10/30/20 06:51 AM
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Originally Posted by newer player
Guitar Center (Musician's Friend), the largest musical instruments retailer in the US, is considering bankruptcy, according to Bloomberg. GC missed interest payments this month. The human malware situation and difficulty sourcing gear are contributing factors.

I worked at the local sporting goods store as a child so have a view. Your lawyer and banker will have more informed opinions.

It is difficult to speculate what this means for consumers. I WILL BUY EARLY AND OFTEN, with caveats including:

- Equipment vendors are reluctant to sell to GC and may confiscate some inventory lol. So if you are considering music gear purchases for the autumn or winter, GC may have a better selection now than they will going forward. I would not assume firesale prices going forward based on prior liquidity events but that is impossible to predict.

- For all purchases, I might use a credit card with "good protection". For in-store purchases, maybe leave the store with all the gear I paid for.

- CAUTION. I would NOT make any deposits or down payments on equipment. I would NOT leave any equipment in a store for repair, preparation, consignment sale, etc. The cash & equipment may become difficult or impossible to retrieve.

Gibson and Fender guitars have a lot of exposure so maybe, combined with the human-malware situation, guitar warranty claims from the store or Gibson/Fender are a bit less "certain". I don't know what other major vendors have major exposure to GC; Yamaha does good volumes but is the largest global musical instrument maker. A few GC managers in second & third tier cities told me they never saw a Kawai instrument in-store (I have seen some Kawai digital pianos in the NYC store).

It's going to get to the stage where only one vendor exists throughout the world, and we will have to pay money to test instruments before buying. I don't see how shops can survive when the money smart approach causes people to test in store and buy from online vendors.


Instruments: Current - Kawai MP7SE; Past - Kawai MP7, Yamaha PSR7000
Software: Sibelius 7; Neuratron Photoscore Pro 8
Stand: K&M 18953 Table-style Stage Piano Stand
Re: Guitar Center Mulls Restructuring
Doug M. #3040955 10/30/20 06:58 AM
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Yamaha had this under control by not allowing online sales of their high-end pianos.
Any such sales were deemed rogue, and they came with no warranty.
Perhaps Kawai had a similar tactic?
Originally Posted by Doug M.
I don't see how shops can survive when the money smart approach causes people to test in store and buy from online vendors.

But that was in the US. (And I don't know whether that policy still exists?)
It's clear, though, that those same pianos have been available online in the EU. Thomann is the noted example.
Different continent -- different policy.

I think I'd be hard-pressed to buy a large, heavy piano online.
People here have told horror stories about mis-handled delivery of 50 pound keyboards.
So never mind 200+ pound consoles. Cringe! I'll stick with the local retailer.

Re: Guitar Center Mulls Restructuring
MacMacMac #3040961 10/30/20 07:14 AM
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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
I think I'd be hard-pressed to buy a large, heavy piano online.
People here have told horror stories about mis-handled delivery of 50 pound keyboards.
So never mind 200+ pound consoles. Cringe! I'll stick with the local retailer.

No problem at all with delivery of my 80 pound Kawai MP1 (from Kraft) or 25 pound Kawai ESS-110 (from the local Sam Ash, but they delivered since I've no car in Hollywood).


Selmer Mark VI Tenor (‘73) & Alto Sax (‘57), Yamaha YSS-62 Soprano Sax (‘87), Conn Naked Lady Baritone Sax (‘52), Conn New Wonder Tenor & Alto Sax (‘24), Yamaha WX5 Wind Synth (‘13), Kawai MP11 & ES-110, Numa Compact 2x, Casio PX5S, Roland VR-09, Hammond E-112 (‘69).
Re: Guitar Center Mulls Restructuring
newer player #3040971 10/30/20 08:08 AM
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I used to love going to GC to check out new gear and perhaps even be surprised by something I had no idea existed (OASYS); I also enjoyed going to Macy’s for the same reason (shoes, clothing, etc..).......Now I absolutely hate it!

The last time I visited Macy’s, I felt overwhelmed by the amount of people near me (two), and I wanted to have the store all to myself, or else!

That’s what online shopping has done to me, and I suspect to others. I want to be in my own little world without having to make space for others (totally selfish and antisocial, I know, but that’s the new normal).

So yes, I’m not surprised about GC going under, but Musician’s Friend could survive? Then again, that might not be possible since these are two branches from the same -financial- tree!

Re: Guitar Center Mulls Restructuring
Kougeru #3040974 10/30/20 08:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Kougeru
That's extremely disrespectful to the 1.18 million people (and counting) that have died to the virus.
That's only the people that were tested before death.
Millions more have died without being tested. It will easily kill tens of millions worldwide. 1% x 8 billion = 80 million dead over the next 2 years is my educated guess.

I actually don't mind Trump - unlike the previous 9 presidents, he hasn't yet invaded foreign soil smile but he did make 2 mistakes, 1 grabbing women by the crutch, and 2 downplaying the danger of this virus, ostensibly because he didn't want to scare people. This is one situation when SCARING PEOPLE is precisely the go to move!

You wonder why Asia is pretty much virus free? Because SARS 1 in 2003 scared the pants off everyone!

Last edited by Burkey; 10/30/20 08:21 AM.

Piano is one of the best human inventions of the past 320 years - help evangelize the magic!
Re: Guitar Center Mulls Restructuring
Skyscrapersax #3040979 10/30/20 08:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Skyscrapersax
There are many online only* shops: Sweetwater, Zzounds, American Musical Supply; they all basically sell the same thing at the same price. Kraft is the one that specializes in keyboards and carries Kawai. *Kraft and Sweetwater each have one store.
While technically accurate to say that Sweetwater only has one store, it's probably not fair to just call it a store. They have an auditorium for live performances, a recording studio where they offer workshops on recording techniques, they book major artists as well as featuring local artists, they are an authorized repair center for everything they sell, offer music lessons, and have workshops on a wide range of musical topics including new gear that comes in. I only went there because my wife was visiting her friend in Ft Wayne and I had nothing else to do, but I was shocked the first time I saw the place. I don't know how much of their money comes from online sales and how much from in store venues, or how they'll weather the current challenges, but I've never been in any music store that was anything like it and I wish there were a lot more like them.


Yamaha P90, Kawai GL-10
Re: Guitar Center Mulls Restructuring
newer player #3040983 10/30/20 08:49 AM
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Sam Ash is privately owned.
GC is public. They went the usual for public companies expansion route of buying other music chains instead of growing their own healthy one.
They also own Music & Arts, and it was hit very hard this year by remote education in US schools - thier main business was supply of music intruments for schools and students.
Their electric and acoustic guitar selection was decent, but the market niche was too narrow - I could not even find a VOX guitar amp I was interested in in their stores around me. Same with monitors last year. Sheet music almost disappeared from their stores, while Sam Ash still carries some, and I buy some from Sam Ash instead of online when I stop by there.


Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools because they have to say something. (falsely attributed to Plato)
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Re: Guitar Center Mulls Restructuring
newer player #3040992 10/30/20 09:16 AM
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I normally stick with Sweetwater. One time bought from GC (because of a "good deal") and it was a painful experience.

Re: Guitar Center Mulls Restructuring
newer player #3041000 10/30/20 09:40 AM
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I have a Sam Ash and Guitar Center really close to each other and I find Sam Ash more helpful and I try to give them some business when I can. Guitar Center I don't find it a pleasing experience to visit. I hope Sam Ash stays in business as I like to shop locally. My mail order place has become Sweetwater I have to admit. When I have had some questions about equipment they have always gone the extra mile to find the information. I once had three people call me back with the information. I was impressed because it wasn't a high ticket item.


All these years playing and I still consider myself a novice.
Re: Guitar Center Mulls Restructuring
newer player #3041006 10/30/20 09:59 AM
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I have loved using GC over the years. They usually price match so that's not an issue. Cables, guitars, mics, monitors, stands, etc., have always been readily available. Their temp/humidity control rooms for the acoustics guitars are great. Usually a good selection of top end Taylor's and Martin's, etc.

I would always prefer to buy a musical instrument in a store for the "try before you buy" and "easy to service/return" benefits.

I would not like to see another brick/mortar store bite the dust.

God Bless,
David


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Re: Guitar Center Mulls Restructuring
Kougeru #3041010 10/30/20 10:06 AM
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Oh snap. I saw lots of Kawai digital pianos at Sam Ash NYC on 48th Street. Not Guitar Center. Apologies for the error. That was a few years ago and virtually all the music stores and music studios in NYC closed so that made things a bit more confusing.

Originally Posted by Kougeru
Calling it "human malware" isn't funny.
Not intended to be either funny or disrespectful. Apologies to anyone who found it to be.

Re: Guitar Center Mulls Restructuring
David B #3041030 10/30/20 11:02 AM
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I agree. Online I tend to buy only inexpensive items that I know well.
But not pianos. They (and many other items) are for me in-store purchases.

With both GC and SA available, it's hard to like anything about GC. SA is just so so so so much better.
(Or maybe the GC stores aren't so roughshod in the bigger markets? Like NYC and LA? Dunno.)
Originally Posted by David B
I have loved using GC over the years. They usually price match so that's not an issue. Cables, guitars, mics, monitors, stands, etc., have always been readily available. Their temp/humidity control rooms for the acoustics guitars are great. Usually a good selection of top end Taylor's and Martin's, etc.

I would always prefer to buy a musical instrument in a store for the "try before you buy" and "easy to service/return" benefits.

I would not like to see another brick/mortar store bite the dust.
Anyway ... if GC goes under, others will arrive to fill the gap.

And there will be a gap. People won't stop wanting musical instruments.

But don't count GC out just yet. We'll see what form of "restructuring" they take on.

Re: Guitar Center Mulls Restructuring
Pete14 #3041098 10/30/20 02:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Pete14
The last time I visited Macy’s, I felt overwhelmed by the amount of people near me (two), and I wanted to have the store all to myself, or else!

I suppose that was even pre-COVID-19? :-)


Kawai Novus NV10; Yamaha P-515

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Re: Guitar Center Mulls Restructuring
newer player #3041122 10/30/20 03:29 PM
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Yes?

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