2017 was our 20th year online!

Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 3 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments.
Over 100,000 members from around the world.
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Shop our online store for music lovers
SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Spring Into Sound Sale
(ad)
Best of Piano Buyer
 Best of Piano Buyer
(ad)
Pianoteq
Steinway Spiro Layering
(ad)
Wessell Nickel & Gross
PianoForAll
Who's Online Now
33 members (24000rpm, GnGEmpire, Beowulf, gooddog, CyberGene, Dore, dusty1920, 8 invisible), 379 guests, and 475 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Page 2 of 3 1 2 3
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,029
N
4000 Post Club Member
Offline
4000 Post Club Member
N
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,029
Originally Posted by Rhodes74
You showed the beauty of the voice, and i wanted to add the importance of soul and intellect(!) for a real great narrator. This is relatively rare and can be be really immersive for the listener.
By default, here we are discussing live performers, not robots that accurately reproduce the given parameters.

(ad)
Piano & Music Accessories
piano accessories music gifts tuning and moving equipment
Joined: Sep 2018
Posts: 48
R
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
R
Joined: Sep 2018
Posts: 48
yes, and is it not the reason we are seeing such a variety of personalities?

-Rhodes74

Joined: May 2012
Posts: 510
I
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
I
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 510
Originally Posted by Simon_b
Hi

Like Nahum I agree your list; these are the obvious choices, except Grusin, who I like, but have never heard play ballads.

I'd add Oscar Peterson. Not an obvious choice, given his reputation for virtuoso fireworks, but he was a great ballad player. You hear this best on some of his solo albums where his voicings and touch are wonderful.

Cheating, I'd add Nat King Cole from the After Midnight sessions, where he sang and played. It doesn't get much better than that.

As far as non Pianists go Ben Webster on Tenor Sax, would be my favourite.

Cheers

Simon, we have some parallel preferences. I've heard some Ben Webster ballad playing that make me tend to agree. I'll throw in Johnny Hodges. IIRC Duke had a nickname "Rabbit" for Hodges. For me it's that darting phrasing with little starts and stops, like a rabbit or other rodent.

Also, ironically, I was listening to the Nat King Cole After Midnight Sessions just last week.

I'm going to submit Duke Ellington to add to Nahum's Billy Strayhorn. Duke, like Billy, didn't play a lot of extended single line melodies in his improv. He often filled with descending arpeggios and rhythmic punctuating jabs. I figure is was a consequence of playing with a big band where single lines wouldn't cut thru.

And of course, Keith Jarrett. I've often enjoyed listening to Keith's melodic fills at the end of a phrase.

Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 1,171
E
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
E
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 1,171
Originally Posted by indigo_dave
I'll throw in Johnny Hodges. IIRC Duke had a nickname "Rabbit" for Hodges. For me it's that darting phrasing with little starts and stops, like a rabbit or other rodent

I don’t think rodent is the same either metaphorically or literally.

Joined: May 2004
Posts: 2,316
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 2,316
I have a good chart for this original ballad by Monty Alexander

Joined: May 2004
Posts: 2,316
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 2,316
I have this ballad chart too.


Jazz piano Instructor. Technical Editor for Mark Levine's "The Jazz Theory Book". Studied with Mark Levine, Art Lande & Mark Isham (1981-1990). Also: Barry Harris & Monty Alexander (1993-present).
Kawai ES110. Mason & Hamlin acoustic.
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 2,316
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 2,316

Joined: May 2004
Posts: 2,316
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 2,316

Joined: May 2004
Posts: 2,316
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 2,316

Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,029
N
4000 Post Club Member
Offline
4000 Post Club Member
N
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,029
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
2. Can you describe in not too technical terms what you see as the similarities or differences between the playing of the pianists on my list? How would you describe their ballad playing?

Thanks!
These worthy questions deserve clear answers in the field of pianism and performance. Performance philosophy questions are interesting in themselves, but they are a separate topic.

Old Folks


1. Keith Jarrett's version

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oeuaiuUBBFI


Ernestine Anderson with Monty Alexander - my favorite vocal version ; can't hear it without tears!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-MvAPEwK02I


3.Monty Alexander's version

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OuyHSLFU3ms


1.It also introduces Jarrett's typical concept of intro-theme-improvisation-theme- outro = interlude ; as well as the above mentioned qualities of performance of the theme. Here 100% of the focus is on the melody, including variation; but without any remplissage; while the left hand is correctly accompanying. Every note is functional!
I read somewhere that Jarrett had a period when he worked exclusively on the performance of naked melodies. He even copied a specific vocal performance with all the peculiarities; e.g. Peggy Lee's with George Shearing version of Don't Ever Leave Me in album The Melody At Night, With You .
About improvisation, I can only say that it is based on motivic development (as opposed to variation), which turns the performances of K.J. in one long, continuous (thanks to the brilliant rhythm section) line - from the first to the last note. The division into choruses is abolished. It's like the idea of ​​a long sustain of a single sound, transferred to the concept of playing the whole piece from the very first to the very last note, where pauses, sometimes long ones, are just as functional as the notes.


2.Here Monty Alexander is undoubtedly influenced by both the singer and the version of Jarrett that appeared 2 years earlier. Throw in the Fender Piano with its long sustain, and you have fantastic accompaniment - every vocalist's dream, and a masterpiece of improvisation, especially at the beginning. Unfortunately, further there is a confrontation between dynamic development and the tendency to brilliant remplissage , which is not always logically justified .

Joined: May 2012
Posts: 510
I
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
I
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 510
Originally Posted by emenelton
Originally Posted by indigo_dave
I'll throw in Johnny Hodges. IIRC Duke had a nickname "Rabbit" for Hodges. For me it's that darting phrasing with little starts and stops, like a rabbit or other rodent

I don’t think rodent is the same either metaphorically or literally.

I googled it. Reportedly Duke said Hodges looked like a rabbit when he played. I still think of his playing like a rabbit - hopping and darting around, then stopping for a moment or two, then darting around. Duke also reportedly sometimes called Hodges "Jeep".

Last edited by indigo_dave; 10/29/20 08:40 AM.
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 1,171
E
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
E
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 1,171
Originally Posted by indigo_dave
Originally Posted by emenelton
Originally Posted by indigo_dave
I'll throw in Johnny Hodges. IIRC Duke had a nickname "Rabbit" for Hodges. For me it's that darting phrasing with little starts and stops, like a rabbit or other rodent

I don’t think rodent is the same either metaphorically or literally.

I googled it. Reportedly Duke said Hodges looked like a rabbit when he played. I still think of his playing like a rabbit - hopping and darting around, then stopping for a moment or two, then darting around. Duke also reportedly sometimes called Hodges "Jeep".

just taking exception to your equivocation of 'a rabbit' with 'other rodent'

If a band leader called you a rabbit because of your playing, it probably would cause a few raised eyebrows and a grin; calling you a rodent however is not good in any way and finally, rabbits are not rodents.

Last edited by emenelton; 10/29/20 11:33 AM.
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 510
I
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
I
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 510
Originally Posted by emenelton
Originally Posted by indigo_dave
Originally Posted by emenelton
Originally Posted by indigo_dave
I'll throw in Johnny Hodges. IIRC Duke had a nickname "Rabbit" for Hodges. For me it's that darting phrasing with little starts and stops, like a rabbit or other rodent

I don’t think rodent is the same either metaphorically or literally.

I googled it. Reportedly Duke said Hodges looked like a rabbit when he played. I still think of his playing like a rabbit - hopping and darting around, then stopping for a moment or two, then darting around. Duke also reportedly sometimes called Hodges "Jeep".

just taking exception to your equivocation of 'a rabbit' with 'other rodent'

If a band leader called you a rabbit because of your playing, it probably would cause a few raised eyebrows and a grin; calling you a rodent however is not good in any way and finally, rabbits are not rodents.

I stand corrected. I thought I'd read that rabbits were rodents. I was really thinking more of the behavior. I watch squirrels in my front yard thru the window while playing piano. I saw a chipmunk video recently and observed that behavior.

Back to music. I love the stories around Ellington and the human ecosystem he enabled (another potential language dispute ? ). I read someplace long ago that on occasion when Hodges played something exceptionally well or inventively, he would rub his thumb and index finger together, signaling to Duke he deserved a tip. And sometimes Duke would tip him.

Last edited by indigo_dave; 10/29/20 12:06 PM.
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,029
N
4000 Post Club Member
Offline
4000 Post Club Member
N
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,029
The concept of performing a ballad has repeatedly changed in the history of jazz: first it was a blues ballad (St. James Infirmary), then a dancing slow fox, which turned into a slow swing; and only in the late 50s, in the concepts of Bill Evans and Miles, the ballad took shape as what is familiar to us today (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PVJ5jgZU6gU).
At the same time, two points should be noted: the solo pianistic style of the ballad proceeded, and still proceeds from Chopin's prelude technique; and also, K. Jarrett pushed ballad performance much further than Bill Evans, changing the traditional 4/4 = 12/8 feeling to 8/8, which changed the sense of swing in the ballad, and required new types of techniques .KJ is a resolutely innovator of jazz pianism, and just during the period of his "Standards" series !

Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,029
N
4000 Post Club Member
Offline
4000 Post Club Member
N
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,029
Bill Evans was apparently the first to use in ballads highlighting soprano of LH chords on every beat - unlike Erroll Garner . K. Jarrett developed this transparent rhythmic effect by shifting repetition from soprano to other chords voices.

3.Monty Alexander's concept is different: he tightly fills all the pauses of the theme with passages and remplissages ; not allowing the rhythm section to be an equal partner.
It's pity- sometimes he just doesn't give the melody a chance to breathe.I would put it this way: he has a wonderful motivic thinking, in which passages a la Peterson interfere. He has so many ideas , unlike others , that he should have limited himself.

Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 1,171
E
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
E
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 1,171
Originally Posted by indigo_dave
I stand corrected. I thought I'd read that rabbits were rodents.

I read someplace long ago that on occasion when Hodges played something exceptionally well or inventively, he would rub his thumb and index finger together, signaling to Duke he deserved a tip. And sometimes Duke would tip him.




Thank-you Mr Indigo!

Joined: May 2004
Posts: 2,316
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 2,316
Ballads and rabbits? I don’t know much about that.


Jazz piano Instructor. Technical Editor for Mark Levine's "The Jazz Theory Book". Studied with Mark Levine, Art Lande & Mark Isham (1981-1990). Also: Barry Harris & Monty Alexander (1993-present).
Kawai ES110. Mason & Hamlin acoustic.
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 2,316
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 2,316
Yeah Monty sometimes has more technique than he knows what to do with, he often is guilty of too many notes as is Peterson He is also inconsistent in quality, but that is par for the course with many improvisers and I accept it. But somehow I prefer his musical character. Evans and Jarret could never play “Feelings” like Monty does in the video above. “ Montreux Alexander” is my all time favorite jazz piano trio album. When I’m dying that’s what I want to listen to. Monty has a different sounding soulfulness, more bluesy, more busy, more show-ey, than the other two men. I’d rather listen to Monty than many of the greats (Monk, McCoy, Corea) and that sounds sacrilegious but that’s me. I prefer him to Peterson too, although Peterson is s greater pianist and musician.


Jazz piano Instructor. Technical Editor for Mark Levine's "The Jazz Theory Book". Studied with Mark Levine, Art Lande & Mark Isham (1981-1990). Also: Barry Harris & Monty Alexander (1993-present).
Kawai ES110. Mason & Hamlin acoustic.
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 2,316
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 2,316
Originally Posted by Nahum
Bill Evans was apparently the first to use in ballads highlighting soprano of LH chords on every beat - unlike Erroll Garner . K. Jarrett developed this transparent rhythmic effect by shifting repetition from soprano to other chords voices.
That sounds intriguing but I don’t understand what you wrote.


Jazz piano Instructor. Technical Editor for Mark Levine's "The Jazz Theory Book". Studied with Mark Levine, Art Lande & Mark Isham (1981-1990). Also: Barry Harris & Monty Alexander (1993-present).
Kawai ES110. Mason & Hamlin acoustic.
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,029
N
4000 Post Club Member
Offline
4000 Post Club Member
N
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,029
Originally Posted by RinTin
I’d rather listen to Monty than many of the greats (Monk, McCoy, Corea) and that sounds sacrilegious but that’s me.
I agree. I wanted to mention McCoy: he runs from long melodic notes, unless it's an octave tremolo. It's clear why - his sound without pedal includes a short sustain.



Originally Posted by RinTin
That sounds intriguing but I don’t understand what you wrote.

I fell into a little despair!

[Linked Image]

Page 2 of 3 1 2 3

Link Copied to Clipboard
(ad)
Faust Harrison Pianos
Faust Harrison 100+ Steinway pianos
(ad)
Couch to Concert Hall
Couch to Concert Hall
(ad)
PianoDisc

PianoDisc
(ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad)
Mason & Hamlin Pianos
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Appraising a piano?
by jsilva - 04/13/21 09:18 PM
Bleeding edge synth tech c.1980 for Rush
by newer player - 04/13/21 08:36 PM
Yamaha U3 or Avant Grand N2
by Eggplanted - 04/13/21 05:46 PM
Kawai KXXX ATX 3
by Stax - 04/13/21 04:26 PM
Download Sheet Music
Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads
Forum Statistics
Forums42
Topics206,270
Posts3,082,137
Members101,182
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Please Support Our Advertisers

Faust Harrison 100+ Steinways

Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver

 Best of Piano Buyer

PianoTeq Bechstein
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads



 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter |


© copyright 1997 - 2021 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5