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Kawai Novus NV10 vs. Yamaha Avantgrand
#3040216 10/28/20 09:12 AM
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Hi everyone,
Although I am the second most prolific PW poster I have never posted on or read the digital forum! I have a 15 year old Mason & Hamlin BB and have not considered buying a non acoustic piano until now. I am hoping that those of you more familiar with these two models(which is almost everyone reading this post) can compare and contrast the touch and tone of these two models for me. For the Avantgrand I would only be considering the ones that come in a vertical type case, i.e. not what I think is called the N3.

My motivation for considering a hybrid is to be able to play silently and listen through headphones or to be able to play very softly. Besides the touch and tone, if you consider other things to be pros or cons please feel free to mention them. But I am not generally interested in(or even probably able to understand) the very technical information or details about the bells and whistles of each model which I assume are important to at least some of you.

Thanks for your help.

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Re: Kawai Novus NV10 vs. Yamaha Avantgrand
pianoloverus #3040222 10/28/20 09:29 AM
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I haven't played the NV10, so I can't compare them, however I own an AvantGrand N1X (and it replaced an AvantGrand NU1X) and would like to clarify what you mean by "vertical type case".

The NU1X is in an upright style cabinet but to achieve this slim shape it also uses an upright piano action, whereas the other AvantGrand pianos (N1X and N3X) use grand-piano actions. The N1X is more compact but it's still big and not very "upright" in shape. However you are probably well aware of the differences between an upright piano action and a grand-piano action, notably the inability to replay a key on the upright without releasing it fully. As a peculiar consequence Yamaha decided to put sensors only under the keys on that model and that leads to an infamous problem where an otherwise silent stroke (due to an escaped jack) would result in sudden loud note. It was rare and was later alleviated to a certain degree. But it was the reason for me to upgrade to the grand-piano action in N1X which is a delight to play.

Furthermore, the AvantGrand pianos have binaural sampling for their CFX voice, which is specifically created for headphone playing and according to the prevalent opinion, including mine, makes it a delight to play through headphones. A binaural sampling option is not available on the NV10, although some people still find it good enough for playing through headphones.


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Re: Kawai Novus NV10 vs. Yamaha Avantgrand
pianoloverus #3040225 10/28/20 09:39 AM
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P.S. To avoid being accused of Yamaha bias, let's also mention that on the other hand the piano action in the NV10 is a Millenium III action with longer keys, probably corresponding to the action in a GL30, as well as having damper-emulating weights linked to the damper pedal, so when you press the pedal, you will feel keys becoming lighter, exactly as on a real grand piano. The N1X has shorter keys, probably similar to the ones in GB1 piano and lacks any damper weights, so the key weight will not change with the damper pedal smile

Last edited by CyberGene; 10/28/20 09:41 AM.

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Re: Kawai Novus NV10 vs. Yamaha Avantgrand
pianoloverus #3040228 10/28/20 09:41 AM
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Welcome to the digital subforum, pianoloverus.

The hybrids you mention are really the pinnacle of digital pianos, so if you're looking for something as close as possible to your BB, you're definitely heading in the right direction. I'm going to assume you're focused on hybrid grands, and not uprights?

There's a thriving hybrid community here around both the Yamaha N1X, and the Kawai NV-10, which are your only two choices given the pre-requisite you note. Both products are really so similar that despite the difference we'll end up highlighting here, you should just focus on finding a shop with each and trying them out for yourself (don't forget to bring a good pair of headphones); there's very little chance of going with your gut and choosing the wrong between the two.

A few high level bits to get you started differentiating between the two (and really, most of these are minor differences):

Kawai NV-10
Costs a bit more ($9-10k street price US, pre-COVID)
Has a real damper mechanism (damper weights for each key, mechanical damper bar for the sustain pedal)
Has the same Millennium III action as found in Kawai grands, with slightly longer keysticks (like a 5'10 grand)
Has more powerful speakers
Has a touchscreen UI and dozens of instruments/voices in addition to the piano sounds

N1X
Costs a bit less ($7-8k street)
Has a real grand action, with slightly shorter keysticks (probably a 5' or 5'3 grand) (but no dampers/back action)
Has binaurally recorded samples specifically used for headphone output (which many users here really like)
Has a very basic UI and fewer sounds, bells and whistles (just sit down and play piano, rather than play around with Celesta, strings, etc.)
Has a built in audio interface for sending digital audio straight to a computer/tablet/smartphone

As a second piano to a large grand, you may find you'll either want something as close as possible in feel (NV-10 arguably has the edge with longer keys and real damper), or one the focuses on best silent play (N1X arguably if you like the binaural headphone output).

One thing to note, hybrids play silently, but they're not the quietest digitals out there. You wouldn't want to have one in the bedroom if others are sleeping, the acoustic piano action thumps louder than you might expect. For a more silent late-night pracice experience, you might need to look down-market at non-hybrid digitals.

One last note - Yamaha also makes an "N2" AvantGrand, but you should probably disregard that; it's a 10-yo legacy product that they keep in current inventory/production for reasons only Yamaha knows. The technology in the AG series has moved on significantly since then with the N1X and N3X.


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Re: Kawai Novus NV10 vs. Yamaha Avantgrand
CyberGene #3040233 10/28/20 09:48 AM
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Originally Posted by CyberGene
I haven't played the NV10, so I can't compare them, however I own an AvantGrand N1X (and it replaced an AvantGrand NU1X) and would like to clarify what you mean by "vertical type case".
Thanks for your reply including the part I didn't quote. I do know that there are basically two Avantgrand models with a vertical type case, one with and the other without a grand type action. I am interested in information about either of those models since I haven't decided definitely to only consider the one with grand type action.

Re: Kawai Novus NV10 vs. Yamaha Avantgrand
pianoloverus #3040234 10/28/20 09:50 AM
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Indeed ... I'm surprised to see you here, on the "other side of the tracks".
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Although I am the second most prolific PW poster I have never posted on or read the digital forum!

Originally Posted by pianoloverus
I am not generally interested in ... the very technical information or details about the bells and whistles of each model which I assume are important to at least some of you.
That is not a problem. When you chose the M&H, what qualities were you seeking and how did you find them?
I'm guessing you tried out some pianos and chose the M&H because it suited you.

I think it's exactly the same with the digital pianos. Try them, as many as you can.
They may not quite match up with your acoustic grand, but your wants and needs still need to be (mostly) met.
You'll find out by trying. I find the specs 'n' techs unrevealing at best, and often deceptive.

I've tried the NV10 a couple of times. It has a glorious feel. It was hard to judge the sound because (a) the speakers didn't do well in the crappy acoustic environment of the shop (not to mention a noisy eight-year-old running around), and (b) the shop's headphones were crap. But the action was superb.

I've not yet tried an N1X. The shop I visited a month ago only had an N3X. Same action (I think) and same CFX binaural voice (I think) as the N1X.
If so, the wonderful touch and sound of that N3X will suit me just fine, in the form of the much less expensive N1X.
Supplies are short. They sold two N1X models recently, hence none to show on the floor. And the next one comes along next month ... already sold in advance.

Re: Kawai Novus NV10 vs. Yamaha Avantgrand
Gombessa #3040239 10/28/20 09:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Gombessa
Welcome to the digital subforum, pianoloverus.

The hybrids you mention are really the pinnacle of digital pianos, so if you're looking for something as close as possible to your BB, you're definitely heading in the right direction. I'm going to assume you're focused on hybrid grands, and not uprights?

There's a thriving hybrid community here around both the Yamaha N1X, and the Kawai NV-10, which are your only two choices given the pre-requisite you note. Both products are really so similar that despite the difference we'll end up highlighting here, you should just focus on finding a shop with each and trying them out for yourself (don't forget to bring a good pair of headphones); there's very little chance of going with your gut and choosing the wrong between the two.

A few high level bits to get you started differentiating between the two (and really, most of these are minor differences):

Kawai NV-10
Costs a bit more ($9-10k street price US, pre-COVID)
Has a real damper mechanism (damper weights for each key, mechanical damper bar for the sustain pedal)
Has the same Millennium III action as found in Kawai grands, with slightly longer keysticks (like a 5'10 grand)
Has more powerful speakers
Has a touchscreen UI and dozens of instruments/voices in addition to the piano sounds

N1X
Costs a bit less ($7-8k street)
Has a real grand action, with slightly shorter keysticks (probably a 5' or 5'3 grand) (but no dampers/back action)
Has binaurally recorded samples specifically used for headphone output (which many users here really like)
Has a very basic UI and fewer sounds, bells and whistles (just sit down and play piano, rather than play around with Celesta, strings, etc.)
Has a built in audio interface for sending digital audio straight to a computer/tablet/smartphone

As a second piano to a large grand, you may find you'll either want something as close as possible in feel (NV-10 arguably has the edge with longer keys and real damper), or one the focuses on best silent play (N1X arguably if you like the binaural headphone output).

One thing to note, hybrids play silently, but they're not the quietest digitals out there. You wouldn't want to have one in the bedroom if others are sleeping, the acoustic piano action thumps louder than you might expect. For a more silent late-night pracice experience, you might need to look down-market at non-hybrid digitals.

One last note - Yamaha also makes an "N2" AvantGrand, but you should probably disregard that; it's a 10-yo legacy product that they keep in current inventory/production for reasons only Yamaha knows. The technology in the AG series has moved on significantly since then with the N1X and N3X.
Thanks, that's just the type of relatively non technical information I'm looking for.

Re: Kawai Novus NV10 vs. Yamaha Avantgrand
pianoloverus #3040244 10/28/20 10:00 AM
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Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Originally Posted by CyberGene
I haven't played the NV10, so I can't compare them, however I own an AvantGrand N1X (and it replaced an AvantGrand NU1X) and would like to clarify what you mean by "vertical type case".
Thanks for your reply including the part I didn't quote. I do know that there are basically two Avantgrand models with a vertical type case, one with and the other without a grand type action. I am interested in information about either of those models since I haven't decided definitely to only consider the one with grand type action.

If you are open to an upright action, you should consider the NV5. If you can find one! They are selling like hotcakes as some people really love them. See this review: https://youtu.be/Bpid2CcrUw0



Kawai NV10
Re: Kawai Novus NV10 vs. Yamaha Avantgrand
pianoloverus #3040245 10/28/20 10:03 AM
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I didn't know you were the #2 poster. Quick market snapshot which certainly has some errors others will fix.

Kawai has two hybrids called Novus: NV5 and NV10 (an upright and grand type, respectively)
- note the damper equipment missing from the Yamahas

Yamaha has 4 hybrids called AvantGrand: nu1x, n1x, n2, n3x
- Older models were the nu1, n1, n3
- Only the nu1 & nu1x are upright types (hence the "u")
- The n3 & n3x have "big" footprints
- The newer "X" versions are subtle updates (a lot of people like the new binaural headphone sounds, some include a built in interface for easy connection to VI pianos etc.) The n2 has not been upgraded.
- The older n1 and n2 look quite similar but note upgraded key material, speaker system, price...

ALTERNATIVES
Confusingly, other brands market "hybrids" but these are the major pianos with "true" piano actions.

You may be able to install some silent system on your regular piano, or buy a piano with silent system Yamaha Transacoustic etc.

USED
NYC has a lot of used hybrid pianos on offer which sometimes are very cheap but not always; today there are not many but there were last month. The factory warranty is not transferrable and you have to organise a delivery method. These seem to be quite robust but you will see factory visits from time to time for issues. The actions will require regulation from time to time.

https://classifieds.pianobuyer.com/buy-a-piano/view?id=42578

EDIT- late to the party but I'll just keep this up.

Re: Kawai Novus NV10 vs. Yamaha Avantgrand
pianoloverus #3040246 10/28/20 10:10 AM
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I recently owned an N2 and now have a Yamaha DC3X. The N2 was a great instrument, but as others have mentioned, the tech is outdated. That never really bothered me though. I was blending Pianoteq with the N2 most of the time. I guess the N2 still has some value. I got 6K for trade in but it could also mean they just inflated the price for the DC3X frown

You're a much more accomplished pianist than most here I think, so I'm not sure if my opinion means much. I'd say go and try the hybrids and decide what's best for you. Do you have any interest in making use of all the tech features it has? Inputs/Outputs/Etc, VST integration? Or are you just looking for an option to use headphones? If it's just headphones, find the hybrid that has the action and sound the appeals most to you.


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Re: Kawai Novus NV10 vs. Yamaha Avantgrand
pianoloverus #3040253 10/28/20 10:23 AM
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Admittedly I didn't read everything in this thread, but I think there is a difference between these 2 products that I rarely see people mentioning when comparing them.


The nv10 only has hammer sensors.

The n1x has hammer + key sensors. This means it can trigger adaptive release samples. (and i believe has some other advantages i forgot.)


I'm not saying one is better than the other, but this is a difference that might be good to know about.

Re: Kawai Novus NV10 vs. Yamaha Avantgrand
bSharp(C)yclist #3040262 10/28/20 10:45 AM
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Originally Posted by bSharp(C)yclist
I'd say go and try the hybrids and decide what's best for you. Do you have any interest in making use of all the tech features it has? Inputs/Outputs/Etc, VST integration? Or are you just looking for an option to use headphones? If it's just headphones, find the hybrid that has the action and sound the appeals most to you.
Thanks for your reply. I doubt I will ever understand or have use for the types of tech features you mention. I would be playing it either at a very low volume or silently with headphones.

Re: Kawai Novus NV10 vs. Yamaha Avantgrand
U3piano #3040264 10/28/20 10:47 AM
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Originally Posted by U3piano
Admittedly I didn't read everything in this thread, but I think there is a difference between these 2 products that I rarely see people mentioning when comparing them.


The nv10 only has hammer sensors.

The n1x has hammer + key sensors. This means it can trigger adaptive release samples. (and i believe has some other advantages i forgot.)


I'm not saying one is better than the other, but this is a difference that might be good to know about.
Thanks. Can you explain in layman's terms what adaptive release samples are?

Re: Kawai Novus NV10 vs. Yamaha Avantgrand
pianoloverus #3040267 10/28/20 10:48 AM
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Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Thanks. Can you explain in layman's terms what adaptive release samples are?

...and to what extent exactly they are implemented on this piano?


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Re: Kawai Novus NV10 vs. Yamaha Avantgrand
pianoloverus #3040270 10/28/20 10:55 AM
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Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Thanks. Can you explain in layman's terms what adaptive release samples are?

I would caution that this discussion is getting a bit into the technical weeds (which you said you wanted to avoid); it's essentially about the methods each piano uses to determine how to strike and mute the "strings." Technically speaking, the Yamahas (N1X/N3X) use a more sophisticated method that allows for additional edge cases (e.g., very gently lifting the keys halfway and getting that buzzing sound of dampers partially brushing against strings) but in reality very few people ever these notice while playing.

This is why it's really important from a non-technical perspective to actually sit and play the pianos if you can; you may find that you notice something more realistic about how the behavior in one or the other, or you may not notice at all (and things like the quality/timbre of the samples or the weight of the keybed are far more noticeable/important to you).


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50, Kawai MP11 || Kawai NV-10
Re: Kawai Novus NV10 vs. Yamaha Avantgrand
pianoloverus #3040279 10/28/20 11:06 AM
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When you see a phrase used to describe a digital piano ...
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Can you explain in layman's terms what adaptive release samples are?
If it's not acoustic piano terminology, then it's bullcr@p.
If it's an acronym, then it's bullcr@p.
If it's a multi-word term with init-caps (esp. when trademarked), then it's bullcr@p.
Come to think of it, most everything in advertising copy and promotional material is bovine exudate.

Re: Kawai Novus NV10 vs. Yamaha Avantgrand
terminaldegree #3040286 10/28/20 11:13 AM
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Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Thanks. Can you explain in layman's terms what adaptive release samples are?

I don't know if "adaptive release samples" are the term usually used, I just called it that because I don't know what else to call it. But in an acoustic piano, when you release a key, the damper falls back on the string and that produces a sound. This sound is different if you release the key fast or slow, and it also matters how long you have pressed the key etc. Try pressing a key on an acoustic piano and releasing it really slowly, you will hear some sort of string sound, ring, or whatever you like to call it, because of the damper falling back really gently on the still vibrating string.

So, "adaptive release samples" are release samples that react according to how you play, so that it triggers different release samples according to how you are playing. This adds to the realism. If and how important this is, one should decide that for himself. I haven't seen one person complaining about the nv10 lacking them, so maybe it's a minor thing to most people, and goes unnoticed. I do believe there are much more important factors than this one, but it's still good to take into consideration.

Digital piano's or vst's without "adaptive" release samples can still use release samples, but the release samples will always be the same (except for volume) no matter how you play. So adaptive release samples will sound more organic.


Originally Posted by terminaldegree
...and to what extent exactly they are implemented on this piano?

I don't know this. I hope someone that knows can reply to this question. I would think since the n1x has key sensors, it would also use adaptive release samples, but I don't know for sure. If it does not, then it only matters when using it with a VST. Some of the most popular vst's use adaptive release samples, and with the nv10 you won't be able to use them.


tl;dr: Adaptive release samples sound more organic/realistic than non-adaptive release samples, one should decide for themselves if that's important or not.

Re: Kawai Novus NV10 vs. Yamaha Avantgrand
terminaldegree #3040298 10/28/20 11:45 AM
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Originally Posted by terminaldegree
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Thanks. Can you explain in layman's terms what adaptive release samples are?

...and to what extent exactly they are implemented on this piano?


...and to what extent they adapt?

Re: Kawai Novus NV10 vs. Yamaha Avantgrand
Pete14 #3040308 10/28/20 11:58 AM
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Quote
...and to what extent exactly they are implemented on this piano?

Quote
...and to what extent they adapt?

Actually, I'm not entirely sure about all of these things. Maybe Cybergene could explain, as he is very knowledgeable about these sort of things.

But I agree with what Gombessa said, it's probably best to judge by sitting down and play! I just mentioned this sensor/release samples thing as it might be an aspect that's good to know about.

About the details, I'm not sure, I take it Yamaha didn't put key sensors in there for no reason, but I don't know how exactly this would be or is used as an advantage compared to a dp with only hammer samples.

Could also be the avantgrands mainly use the key sensors, and yamaha just added the hammer sensors to the grand-action avantgrands to prevent the loud note issues that were in the Nu1/Nu1x, which have key sensors but no hammer sensors. confused

Re: Kawai Novus NV10 vs. Yamaha Avantgrand
pianoloverus #3040312 10/28/20 12:07 PM
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I just tested it again on the N1X. The most obvious scenario which is easy to hear and reproduce is this:

Play a note, then release the key slightly, say a bit below the middle so that it still sounds and is not dampened immediately. The sound will decay faster than if you keep the key fully pressed. On a piano without that feature you have only two states: either full sustain or the note is (almost) immediately dampened. Nothing in between. Whether that makes any real difference I can’t say. On my DIY controller (AKA Cybrid) there’s no such behavior supported and I don’t think it makes a lot of difference but then I’m not the most advanced player. Besides, I’ve been playing mostly digital pianos for the last 20 years and the N1X is the first to support this feature. So, it’s possible that I haven’t adopted it for, say, better legato. But an acoustic piano player may unconsciously expect it and utilize it when playing. It’s a good thing for me to start exploring in my playing, so expect that in a year I will be evangelizing about how that’s the most important feature in the world 🤣

Last edited by CyberGene; 10/28/20 12:11 PM.

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