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Differences in Shigeru Kawai models?
#3039550 10/26/20 01:45 PM
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Hi all,
I’m in a process of getting a new grand piano for my home. After spending some time trying out different brands and piano models (C.Bechstein Academy, Yamaha CXs, Schimmels and Shigeru Kawais just to name a few). I have decided to go for the SK based on the quality/ value for the money.
I have narrowed my choices down to SK5 and SK6. Neither pianos are available at my local Kawai dealer at the moment, but I have tried pretty much every Shigerus from SK3 all the way to the SK-EX. (With the exception of SK2 and SK6.) I was quite impressed with the SK5 but coming from a Yamaha C7, I thought the SK5 was still slightly lagging in the bass registers. I have also played the SK7 which imho was superior to both SK5 and my C7. However, my budget would only allow me for anything up to the SK6 which frankly I have never tried.
For those who have experienced these instruments. Did you find a big difference between these two instruments? The price difference between to two pianos in my country is about $7K USD. So, I’m looking to go for the best bang for the buck option.
I remembered when I was shopping for my Yamaha back in the 2000s, the C6 was a big jump from a C5 and nearly matched a C7 (but my budget allowed me to go for the biggest piano in that range).
Any help would be appreciated!

Re: Differences in Shigeru Kawai models?
Mark Kulanet #3039556 10/26/20 01:59 PM
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These instruments are pretty individual, but I do think the SK6 is a step up from the 5. However, I would never buy "on spec" and would insist on doing a factory or distribution warehouse selection of a properly "prepped" piano if the specific models are unavailable via the national dealer network.


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Re: Differences in Shigeru Kawai models?
Mark Kulanet #3039590 10/26/20 03:28 PM
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In Piano Buyers Guide, SK-6 is the one SK model listed in the Staff Picks:

https://www.pianobuyer.com/article/staff-picks-recommendations/

If I was to buy a SK it would be precisely a model 6.

If you do not have a floor model available, but overall like the tone and action of these wonderful pianos, it is up to you placing the order to have one brand new from the factory, as they come out very well prepped, with the highest standards possible. Besides, perhaps in your region you might have the bonus of the Master Piano Artisan having it voiced to your specifications after some time. You should check it with the dealer. Here where I live we cannot count on it, it's a shame.

Last, would there be the possibility of getting a ticket to Japan from the dealer, if you order one, so you could choose your piano in the factory?

Wish you all the best in your piano search.


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Re: Differences in Shigeru Kawai models?
Mark Kulanet #3039637 10/26/20 05:44 PM
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I've played the SK2, SK3, SK6 and SK7. The latter two were wonderful instruments. Still you have to play the piano you decide to purchase.


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Re: Differences in Shigeru Kawai models?
Fluxo #3039648 10/26/20 06:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Fluxo
In Piano Buyers Guide, SK-6 is the one SK model listed in the Staff Picks:

https://www.pianobuyer.com/article/staff-picks-recommendations/
I think this is only of minor importance. In the Staff Picks, the authors cannot put all models of even the top two Piano Book rankings because they would have too many picks. So for the highest quality pianos they mostly choose just a few models. IOW I think this at most means they think the SK6 is slightly superior to the other Shigeru models.

Re: Differences in Shigeru Kawai models?
Mark Kulanet #3039660 10/26/20 06:52 PM
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A Shigeru is at the top of my list for a dream piano, but I wish they came in satin. Because of that, I might opt for a GX of the same size if it could be voiced to sound similar to the Shigeru. I wonder if you replaced the GX hammers with Ronsens or some other top of the line hammers, you would get close.

Speaking of voicing: it's great that Shigeru sends an MPA to voice and regulate it for you. However, any work the MPA does is only temporary. After a few years of steady playing, the piano will need voicing and regulation again. Therefore the benefit of the MPA visit is limited. For the majority of the piano's life, assuming you keep it a long time, its sound and touch will be due to the skills of your local piano technician. As nice as it is to have the MPA visit, I don't see that it really affects the long term value of the piano. Nice perk, like that "new car smell," but not something worth paying extra for a new Shigeru, in my opinion.

Last edited by Emery Wang; 10/26/20 06:58 PM.

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Re: Differences in Shigeru Kawai models?
Emery Wang #3039671 10/26/20 07:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Emery Wang
Speaking of voicing: it's great that Shigeru sends an MPA to voice and regulate it for you. However, any work the MPA does is only temporary. After a few years of steady playing, the piano will need voicing and regulation again. Therefore the benefit of the MPA visit is limited. For the majority of the piano's life, assuming you keep it a long time, its sound and touch will be due to the skills of your local piano technician. As nice as it is to have the MPA visit, I don't see that it really affects the long term value of the piano. Nice perk, like that "new car smell," but not something worth paying extra for a new Shigeru, in my opinion.

I disagree.

The majority of new pianos rarely get serviced beyond tuning in the first 5 years of ownership, unless something literally starts to malfunction. By spending a full 8-hour day refining everything from micro-finishing the hammers, voicing, concert-level regulation, even checking the tightness of every case screw, it ensures the piano gets off to a good start after a year of breaking in...which is where the most significant changes to voicing and regulation (and the onset of any problems until things start wearing out) are most likely.

The MPA worked on my piano for 8 1/2 hours with a level of efficiency and focus I'd never before seen from a tech. He didn't even stop to have a meal. If you don't live in a large city and hire a high-level concert tech, you're not likely to get this level of work from a local technician (at least, not in much of the US). That sort of work can cost $1,000 a day plus travel expenses.


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Re: Differences in Shigeru Kawai models?
Mark Kulanet #3039713 10/26/20 10:24 PM
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Thank you for your replies. My country is still under international travel ban, so going to Japan to test those instruments would be impossible. The dealer which is actually Kawai Thailand themselves only got SK3, SK-EX and CR40 crystal as floor models. The SK3 was nice but I felt the piano was just too small for my liking. The SK-EX was hugely discounted but still way too expensive and big. The CR40 was stunning to look at but at $105K it played just like an old RX-3 model (if I have money laying around I’d just buy one for that beautiful case).

Re: Differences in Shigeru Kawai models?
Mark Kulanet #3039714 10/26/20 10:25 PM
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I don't disagree terminaldegree. But even the best regulation and voicing needs to be redone over time. Now compared to the prep the average piano gets from the dealer, you're right: the Shigeru should be miles ahead after the MPA visits. But 5 years later, unless you can afford to fly the MPA out there again, you're stuck with hammers that need work, and regulation that is no longer what it was. At that point a good tech should be able to get it back into good shape, but that's about it. It will probably never be at the level it was 5 years ago after the MPA worked on it, and that's my point: over time you can have a performance grade piano just like any other performance grade piano, being serviced by a local tech that keeps it at the level every other well-maintained performance grade piano in the neighborhood is at. But no one will be able to tell that it was worked on by a Shigeru Kawai MPA all those years ago.

That being said, I'm sure there are very good techs in most areas of the country that can continue to make that piano shine. I bet you could maintain your Shigeru yourself to a very high level.

Last edited by Emery Wang; 10/26/20 10:28 PM.

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Re: Differences in Shigeru Kawai models?
Emery Wang #3039722 10/26/20 11:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Emery Wang
I bet you could maintain your Shigeru yourself to a very high level.

Other than tuning and minor regulation and voicing adjustments, I actually bring someone else in and pay them to make any more involved adjustments for my personal grand piano (I no longer own the SK-6). I'm far too picky and the piano's far too expensive for me to be the one screwing it up! And those good techs are at least 100 miles away from here.

My point is the most benefit to be had to having an expert-level regulation and voicing done for a home-use piano is after a year of regular playing, as that will have more of a lasting impact over time (since parts will have broken in).

To the OP-- yes, it's definitely tough to step down from a C7 sized piano to anything smaller. I doubt I could step back into anything smaller than 210cm after owning a 230cm behemoth for a couple years. Okay, maybe a really special S&S "long A", but it would have to be a 1 in a million example...the inability to travel freely is definitely causing difficulties for a lot of us! Any chance you could negotiate the price on the SK7 you've actually played and liked?


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Re: Differences in Shigeru Kawai models?
Mark Kulanet #3039729 10/27/20 12:37 AM
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Welcome to the Forum, Mark Kulanet. Or maybe I should say Forums or Fora... but being understood the first time is probably the way to go.

Last time I heard anything about it, Kawai was not sending the pro techs all over the world. So, the question of whether the service is worth Mark's consideration could be moot.

On the other hand, I find the argument to be specious that, because a single tuning and regulation will not last for a piano's whole lifetime, it is not worth the service. I see the visit of the pianomakers from Japan to be about education, as much as making physical adjustments to the instrument. That is what our members who have had the experience say, and my tech here in California said that during the time the tech was present--- several days--- among the other things he did was to make adjustments to the SK's that were on the floor at our authorized Kawai rep's store. He said that they were very generous, and that he learned a great deal that was very useful to him.

So, education for the end user, about what their SK could be if the best could be gotten out of it, and for the local techs; education for the future.

As for the perfect size. Hmmm. I own an RX-5, which is several years old now, and I have thought that my only regret was in not getting the RX-6, and getting that full seven feet. Then again, I do live in a house, and have neighbors; I already play whatever scales or exercises I do with earplugs, because my piano has a very big voice. So I save the ears for the real music. Had the dealer had a -6 or -7 on the floor, I would probably have ordered it and never looked back. So, I lost my virginity with an SK-7 in the back room. Oh man, the bass--- you could almost hear the strings ticking back and forth.

They would have given me full credit for my RX-5; that, and 20,000 bucks. But, the fever had died down by then.

So, Mark--- will your dealer not order the SK-6 or -7 if you put up a deposit? How about this: it is not unlikely that someone in your hometown has the model and size you want, and might be willing to let you see how it sounds and feels. You might get some good side information, at the same town.

Best of luck with your search!


Clef

Re: Differences in Shigeru Kawai models?
Jeff Clef #3039731 10/27/20 01:08 AM
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Hi Jeff, I believe that we don’t get the privilege to have a MPA visit in Thailand. However, I do have my own piano master tech who’s been working on my pianos for a long time.
The dealer is willing to order a brand new SK6 or SK7 but the price difference between the two models are close to $10K. My budget was originally an equivalent to USD$50K which would get me a brand new SK5. The SK6 is around $55K and I’m willing to stretch my budget for if it’s worth it (like if the piano is noticeably better in every single way). The SK7 would be an ideal piano but it is a bit out of my budget for the price they go for here.

Re: Differences in Shigeru Kawai models?
Mark Kulanet #3039749 10/27/20 03:31 AM
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are you sure there is no MPA visit?
I have asked kawai indonesia, and there is here.

a few years ago, I was considering to order an sk5L from japan.
but luckily finally I find one to try, and I do not like the action at all,
it is very very heavy.

how about yamaha sx series?
are there floor models to try in Bangkok?

Re: Differences in Shigeru Kawai models?
Mark Kulanet #3039764 10/27/20 04:32 AM
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Hi Mark Kulanet,

You may want to check out Sangah Noonah's YouTube and Twitch channels as she has just swapped her old Samick 225 for, I believe, a new Kawai SK6! As you may know she is a South Korean pianist who, in normal times, plays professionally for her living and is now based on the East Coast of the USA. I'm sure that she would be pleased to give her initial opinion of both the instrument and Kawai's service if you emailed her.

As I'm very much a beginner who doesn't have the physical room for even an acoustic upright I'm more than a little envious of your dilemma!

Kind regards,

Tog


Standard: Absolute beginner. Currently butchering Bach BWV846!
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Re: Differences in Shigeru Kawai models?
Mark Kulanet #3039830 10/27/20 08:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Mark Kulanet
My budget was originally an equivalent to USD$50K which would get me a brand new SK5. The SK6 is around $55K and I’m willing to stretch my budget for if it’s worth it (like if the piano is noticeably better in every single way). The SK7 would be an ideal piano but it is a bit out of my budget for the price they go for here.
As I posted earlier I haven't played a SK5, but I have played an SK6 and it was wonderful. Frankly, it was everything I could want from a piano. I've also played an SK7 and while they were at different times in different stores I wouldn't say the SK6 was substantially less piano. They were different instruments. The SK7 was a very refined sounding instrument, superbly controllable, but not so much at roaring, more of a Mozart - Haydn piano. However, it could jump out of the box when pushed. I didn't feel any limitations with the SK6. It was just a wonderful piano. Would Kawai Thailand order in an SK6 for you to try or do you have to commit to buying it?


Steve Chandler
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Re: Differences in Shigeru Kawai models?
Mark Kulanet #3039855 10/27/20 09:50 AM
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In regards to the differences, my understanding is that as you move towards the larger models the SK6 and SK7 Kawai uses their original stockpile of EZO spruce which may be a slightly higher quality spruce than the Sitka spruce they use on their smaller models. As they were running out of this spruce they switched to Sitka spruce on their smaller models as time went on- at least this is my understanding. Possibly when the project started all Shigerus started out with EZO spruce in their soundboards. Also in the SK6 and above similar to Faziolis they use Japanese box wood caps in the treble section of the bridge. Rumor has it that the Shigeru bridge (on the larger models?) is an exact replica of the bridge found on Hamburg Steinways. So as you move towards the larger Shigerus you get additional refinements not found on the smaller models, but as a Shigeru owner I can attest to the fact that even the smaller models are gorgeous instruments.


Working on:

Bach/Busoni Chaconne in D minor BWV 1004
Preludio: Bach/Rachmaninoff E Major Sonata for Violin
Chopin: G Minor Ballade


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Re: Differences in Shigeru Kawai models?
Emery Wang #3039909 10/27/20 11:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Emery Wang
I don't disagree terminaldegree. But even the best regulation and voicing needs to be redone over time. Now compared to the prep the average piano gets from the dealer, you're right: the Shigeru should be miles ahead after the MPA visits. But 5 years later, unless you can afford to fly the MPA out there again, you're stuck with hammers that need work, and regulation that is no longer what it was. At that point a good tech should be able to get it back into good shape, but that's about it. It will probably never be at the level it was 5 years ago after the MPA worked on it, and that's my point: over time you can have a performance grade piano just like any other performance grade piano, being serviced by a local tech that keeps it at the level every other well-maintained performance grade piano in the neighborhood is at. But no one will be able to tell that it was worked on by a Shigeru Kawai MPA all those years ago.

That being said, I'm sure there are very good techs in most areas of the country that can continue to make that piano shine. I bet you could maintain your Shigeru yourself to a very high level.
I was concerned about the same thing following my MPA visit. Of concern to me was if there were any nuances involved in voicing a Shigeru cold pressed hammer and if that information was readily available to piano technicians. I would imagine though that any qualified technician could work on all other components of any piano.

I posed this question to my MPA when he prepped my Shigeru. I asked him can any other technician work on my Shigeru as he just did. He said yes so long as they are good at what they do. He said the most important quality of a good technician is if they have a "good ear". He told me part of the actual training as a Shigeru MPA involved working on other high end European pianos other than Shigeru to round out their training. So my MPA from Japan was also utilized by Bosendorfer and Steinway to prep their concert grands. In fact, he was on his way to the Miami Chopin competition to prep the Steinway concert grands immediately after he prepped by my piano.

I think one of the main advantages of having the MPA visit is that your own technician has as frame of reference of how the Shigeru should perform when at its optimum. I plan to keep my current technician who worked on my piano prior to the MPA visit and then soon after. So the MPA is a good starting point for the owner as well as the technician.

And if that fails you can always just bribe Don Mannino, kidding.... maybe.

Last edited by Jethro; 10/27/20 11:39 AM.

Working on:

Bach/Busoni Chaconne in D minor BWV 1004
Preludio: Bach/Rachmaninoff E Major Sonata for Violin
Chopin: G Minor Ballade


Shigeru Kawai SK2
Kawai VPC-1
Re: Differences in Shigeru Kawai models?
tirta #3039913 10/27/20 11:54 AM
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Originally Posted by tirta
are you sure there is no MPA visit?
I have asked kawai indonesia, and there is here.

a few years ago, I was considering to order an sk5L from japan.
but luckily finally I find one to try, and I do not like the action at all,
it is very very heavy.

how about yamaha sx series?
are there floor models to try in Bangkok?

I’m pretty sure there’s no MPA coming from Japan with the purchase in Thailand. Although they will definitely send in a local Kawai master tech to work on the piano to my liking.

The Yamaha SX series are priced much higher than the Shigerus here. I also played Yamahas for like 95% of the time from U1 uprights all the way to CFXs. I’m so used to them that I’m ready to move to another brands.

Re: Differences in Shigeru Kawai models?
Steve Chandler #3039920 10/27/20 12:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Steve Chandler
Originally Posted by Mark Kulanet
My budget was originally an equivalent to USD$50K which would get me a brand new SK5. The SK6 is around $55K and I’m willing to stretch my budget for if it’s worth it (like if the piano is noticeably better in every single way). The SK7 would be an ideal piano but it is a bit out of my budget for the price they go for here.
As I posted earlier I haven't played a SK5, but I have played an SK6 and it was wonderful. Frankly, it was everything I could want from a piano. I've also played an SK7 and while they were at different times in different stores I wouldn't say the SK6 was substantially less piano. They were different instruments. The SK7 was a very refined sounding instrument, superbly controllable, but not so much at roaring, more of a Mozart - Haydn piano. However, it could jump out of the box when pushed. I didn't feel any limitations with the SK6. It was just a wonderful piano. Would Kawai Thailand order in an SK6 for you to try or do you have to commit to buying it?

Thank you Steve for your comparison. For my experience, I have played both SK5 and SK7 on a separate occasion. While the SK5 was excellent, the SK7 felt like it was another class of instrument. The particular SK7 that I played was as good as the best Hamburg Steinway C that I performed on. Unfortunately big pianos are really hard to sell here. So I don’t think a dealer is willing to order a piano for me to try unless I put down a substantial amount of deposit for them.

Re: Differences in Shigeru Kawai models?
Jethro #3039923 10/27/20 12:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Jethro
In regards to the differences, my understanding is that as you move towards the larger models the SK6 and SK7 Kawai uses their original stockpile of EZO spruce which may be a slightly higher quality spruce than the Sitka spruce they use on their smaller models. As they were running out of this spruce they switched to Sitka spruce on their smaller models as time went on- at least this is my understanding. Possibly when the project started all Shigerus started out with EZO spruce in their soundboards. Also in the SK6 and above similar to Faziolis they use Japanese box wood caps in the treble section of the bridge. Rumor has it that the Shigeru bridge (on the larger models?) is an exact replica of the bridge found on Hamburg Steinways. So as you move towards the larger Shigerus you get additional refinements not found on the smaller models, but as a Shigeru owner I can attest to the fact that even the smaller models are gorgeous instruments.

Thank you for the information! The SK7 that I have played reminds me a lot of the Hamburg Steinway C that I recently played. The SK5 on the other hand was very refined but felt like a lot smaller piano. The sound was also a bit more clinical than the larger grand.
So I was wondering if the SK6 would be closer in term of character to the SK7 or the SK5. But based on your information, I’d think that the SK6 would leans more toward the SK7.

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