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KO #5 LH root
#3039288 10/25/20 05:49 PM
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Any idea why awkward fingerings are “urged” to be used? Such as using 5421 for LH in root position with double bass note. I just started on it so I imagine it’s extra awkward until I develop the dexterity for it.

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Re: KO #5 LH root
Sebs #3039293 10/25/20 06:18 PM
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??

5-4-2-1 is the usual fingering for C-E-G-C'. Chords & arpeggios.


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
Re: KO #5 LH root
bennevis #3039297 10/25/20 06:36 PM
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Originally Posted by bennevis
??

5-4-2-1 is the usual fingering for C-E-G-C'. Chords & arpeggios.


Thanks. But not only referring to CEGC. That’s just the example they list but says use same fingerings going up and down chromatically. For example DF#AD feels much easier with 5321 but they say use 5421.

Re: KO #5 LH root
Sebs #3039301 10/25/20 07:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Sebs
Originally Posted by bennevis
??

5-4-2-1 is the usual fingering for C-E-G-C'. Chords & arpeggios.


Thanks. But not only referring to CEGC. That’s just the example they list but says use same fingerings going up and down chromatically. For example DF#AD feels much easier with 5321 but they say use 5421.
Is that book for jazzers?

No classical book would recommend 5-4-2-1 for D, E or A major in root position.


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
Re: KO #5 LH root
Sebs #3039302 10/25/20 07:04 PM
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I think you're right to question it, Sebs. It doesn't look like an intelligent compromise to me.

K.O. Drill # 5a is also total garbage.

What's the source?


Richard
Re: KO #5 LH root
Sebs #3039305 10/25/20 07:23 PM
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I wonder if this book is trying to give you shortcuts so they can say their method is "easy," i.e. "look, you only need to remember one fingering for everything!"

I'm working my way through all the scales and arpeggios now, using the Alfred book for reference. When I'm learning a new key I'll try their fingering out. Usually it's fine, but if something doesn't feel quite right I'll make a minor adjustment...like substituting 3 for 4 or vice versa. IMO, the important thing is that you are comfortable and consistent. Figure out what feels best for your hands, and then write it down and stick with that fingering.


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Re: KO #5 LH root
Sebs #3039398 10/26/20 04:02 AM
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When learning scales and arpeggios, some fingering may feel awkward initially. For D major, the usual fingering is 5321, but for other keys, you may feel the fingering is difficult even though it is the right one. You should get a complete book with all the proper fingering for each key.

Re: KO #5 LH root
Sebs #3039400 10/26/20 04:06 AM
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Originally Posted by bennevis
Is that book for jazzers?

No classical book would recommend 5-4-2-1 for D, E or A major in root position.
God forbid, but if your left middle finger is suddenly paralyzed, what kind of fingering will you play chord Db F Ab Db? There is a dry theory that needs to be learned; but there is also a reality that can impose non-standard solutions.
It is true that the piano beginner must learn the economy of playing movements and the rational fingering that matches the anatomical structure of the hands. On the other hand, real piano life at an advanced level inevitably also includes uncomfortable situations requiring both rationalization and adaptation. Rationalization has been mentioned; the point of adaptation is to turn the inconvenient into the convenient. This requires separate work, provided that flexibility and freedom of the hands are preserved as much as possible. Students should also have an understanding of the realities of piano playing. The great F. Busoni recommended using in exercises the craziest fingering.

Re: KO #5 LH root
Nahum #3039431 10/26/20 06:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Nahum
Originally Posted by bennevis
Is that book for jazzers?

No classical book would recommend 5-4-2-1 for D, E or A major in root position.
God forbid, but if your left middle finger is suddenly paralyzed, what kind of fingering will you play chord Db F Ab Db? There is a dry theory that needs to be learned; but there is also a reality that can impose non-standard solutions.
The reality is that you are far, far more likely to develop a contracture deformity of fingers (3,) 4 & 5 (Dupuytren's) - especially if you are male and of Nordic ancestry - or suffer a traumatic amputation of several fingers, or develop weakness of the three lateral fingers (median N compression) than a sudden paralysis of the middle finger with nothing else affected. It's the reality of anatomical and medical science.

Playing all arpeggios using the same fingerings regardless of the position of black keys won't help any of that in the least.
Quote
It is true that the piano beginner must learn the economy of playing movements and the rational fingering that matches the anatomical structure of the hands.
The OP is a near-beginner.

Quote
On the other hand, real piano life at an advanced level inevitably also includes uncomfortable situations requiring both rationalization and adaptation. Rationalization has been mentioned; the point of adaptation is to turn the inconvenient into the convenient. This requires separate work, provided that flexibility and freedom of the hands are preserved as much as possible. Students should also have an understanding of the realities of piano playing. The great F. Busoni recommended using in exercises the craziest fingering.
I play at advanced (classical) level, and use the fingerings learnt from my student days (scales & arpeggios etc) automatically, all the time, without having to think about it, precisely because they have been well-practiced & ingrained. (And they can easily be adapted to suit the music being played.) That's what all classical students need to do, to facilitate their learning of more and more advanced pieces.

When I sight-read (which I do frequently), this experience facilitates playing at the right tempo with all the phrasing, dynamics and nuances in place.

When I encounter classical music that requires awkward fingerings, I take them as they come and adapt accordingly......with minimum fuss.

Jazzers & poppers may have other priorities, like transposing songs into every key on the fly(?), so I presume that the OP has been told by his teacher to learn the K.O. way (whatever K.O. is). In real life, I don't perform jazz or pop, so I leave that to the experts in those genres, like you.

I rarely ever have to transpose pieces on the fly when playing (for myself or for an audience): the only times when I had to do so were when accompanying hymns and songs, for which chords are mainly required......like church organists. And classical pianists have to be able to play chords - including big awkward stretchy ones - in all permutations. It's usually anatomical factors that cause experienced classical pianists problems with them: for instance, I, with my small hands, can play some chords that my last teacher (a concert pianist with big hands) can't.


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
Re: KO #5 LH root
Sebs #3039493 10/26/20 11:09 AM
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I agree the I in D should be 5321 not 5421. But the other ones you listed above are 5421. Those are now more comfortable for me than 5321. I vague remember not liking it when I first learned it but I got used to it and now prefer it.

As motivation, you know you'll play 7th chord arpeggios as well. So for example you'll play V7 in F major: c-e-g-b flat -c 54321. So you'll have to like the 5-4 fingering sooner or later.

Re: KO #5 LH root
Sebs #3039504 10/26/20 11:57 AM
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I think both are okay if you have very large hands. Otherwise, stick with 5-3. Also, if you're doing 5-4, make sure there's no uncomfortable stretch, and don't try to needlessly "separate" the fingers, and instead use a slight rotary movement.

Re: KO #5 LH root
ranjit #3039662 10/26/20 06:54 PM
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Originally Posted by zrtf90
I think you're right to question it, Sebs. It doesn't look like an intelligent compromise to me.

K.O. Drill # 5a is also total garbage.

What's the source?

It’s super sight reading secrets.


Originally Posted by ranjit
I think both are okay if you have very large hands. Otherwise, stick with 5-3. Also, if you're doing 5-4, make sure there's no uncomfortable stretch, and don't try to needlessly "separate" the fingers, and instead use a slight rotary movement.

54 is quite comfortable in most but 53 is even more comfortable. Is there any benefit of 54 versus 53?

Re: KO #5 LH root
wszxbcl #3039663 10/26/20 06:57 PM
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Originally Posted by wszxbcl
I agree the I in D should be 5321 not 5421. But the other ones you listed above are 5421. Those are now more comfortable for me than 5321. I vague remember not liking it when I first learned it but I got used to it and now prefer it.

As motivation, you know you'll play 7th chord arpeggios as well. So for example you'll play V7 in F major: c-e-g-b flat -c 54321. So you'll have to like the 5-4 fingering sooner or later.
[quote=wszxbcl] Thanks I didn’t see this post and that answers one of my questions I just asked above. So there is benefit to 54 and it’s a good reach to be able to do. I can play all of them with 54 just some aren’t as comfortable but it’s also my first time so I’m sure it’ll get easier with time.


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