2017 was our 20th year online!

Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 3 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Shop our online store for music lovers
SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Wessell Nickel & Gross
PianoForAll
(ad)
Best of Piano Buyer
 Best of Piano Buyer
(ad)
Faust Harrison Pianos
Faust Harrison 100+ Steinway pianos
Who's Online Now
33 members (Fer15, composingkeys3, cozmopak, doremi, CraiginNZ, Gord Webster, EPW, JB_PW, 8 invisible), 450 guests, and 445 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Key Linkage, instead of Key Pivot ?
#3039054 10/24/20 08:02 PM
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 5,942
C
5000 Post Club Member
OP Offline
5000 Post Club Member
C
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 5,942
This is in the "just musing" category . . .

We assume that a DP key has a _pivot point_, and that, as you play closer to the pivot point, the leverage of your finger changes. (That is, the key becomes hard to press down, near the pivot point.)

So the distance from the end of the key, to the pivot point, is an important parameter. And the longer it is, the deeper the DP has to be, and we know about those trade-offs.

But there are _thousands_ of "linkages", known to mechanical engineers, that let a designer _simulate_ a longer lever than is physically present. One could (for example) devise a linkage that would let a key move _straight down_, along its whole length:

. . . simulating an infinite-length keystick.

I can see that there's a trade-off between the (relative) simplicity of existing key mechanisms, and a mechanism with multiple joints (including possibly sliding joints).

. . . With modern materials and production techniques, is such a key action feasible ?

. . . Might it be cost-effective ?

. . . Has anyone (or any manufacturer) tried to make it work ?

This idea is on the other end from "haptic keyboards" -- there's no software at all.


Thanks --


. Charles
---------------------------
PX-350 / microKorg XL+ / Pianoteq / Lounge Lizard / EV ZXA1 speaker
(ad)
Sweetwater Sale
Sweetwater Sale
Re: Key Linkage, instead of Key Pivot ?
Charles Cohen #3039087 10/25/20 12:21 AM
Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 5,026
G
5000 Post Club Member
Offline
5000 Post Club Member
G
Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 5,026
I do recall that some synth boards do have a straight up/down path for the keys, making for the same keypress weighting front to back.

But I will say that on several of my laptop and desktop trackpads have simple lever pivots, making it nearly impossible to press down from the top half of the trackpad; it's such a usability compromise you'd think they would move on to one of these different joint systems.


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50, Kawai MP11 || Kawai NV-10
Re: Key Linkage, instead of Key Pivot ?
Charles Cohen #3039130 10/25/20 06:03 AM
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 8,587
8000 Post Club Member
Offline
8000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 8,587
I imagine it would be impossible mechanically. Electrically, you could have "variable power steering" towards the pivot end of the keyboard.
On all 88 keys!
I'd been thinking the same as you. And on cars, differential gears reflect a not dissimilar age old problem.
When turning right, only the right driving wheel grips; the other freewheels. Since the car tends to lift at the right, traction is partially or completely lost from the driving wheel.
You try solve that one! But there'll be an electrical solution.


"I am not a man. I am a free number"

"[Linked Image]"
Re: Key Linkage, instead of Key Pivot ?
Charles Cohen #3039133 10/25/20 06:25 AM
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 12,644
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 12,644
Yes! Peter is on the right track.
FOUR WHEEL DRIVE PIANOS, WITH POWER STEERING AND TRACTION CONTROL !!!

Re: Key Linkage, instead of Key Pivot ?
Charles Cohen #3039135 10/25/20 06:39 AM
Joined: Nov 2016
Posts: 2,160
C
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
C
Joined: Nov 2016
Posts: 2,160
Probably the mechanical designers would want to avoid any sliding things.

Re: Key Linkage, instead of Key Pivot ?
Charles Cohen #3039137 10/25/20 06:56 AM
Joined: Oct 2018
Posts: 749
P
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
P
Joined: Oct 2018
Posts: 749
When Casio first mentioned their PXS series and it had such a short key length I secretly hoped that they had attempted something of that kind, but, well, it's just another short distance to the pivot. It can't be an impossible problem - can get people onto the moon but can't simulate a longer pivot? No, that just isn't right. Come on, NASA, get cracking on it!


regards
Pete
Re: Key Linkage, instead of Key Pivot ?
petebfrance #3039146 10/25/20 07:41 AM
Joined: Nov 2016
Posts: 2,160
C
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
C
Joined: Nov 2016
Posts: 2,160
Originally Posted by petebfrance
can get people onto the moon but can't simulate a longer pivot?

Maybe the moon thing is easier.

To some extent they are simulating a longer pivot by the vertical offset between the actual pivot point and the key surface. (Which of course exists in acoustic piano keys too due to their thickness.)

But the effect is quite small. And if you make a huge offset it then also makes the tip of the key move front to back more.

Related:
http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthre...ion-thread-lets-do-this.html#Post3021455
http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthre...ion-thread-lets-do-this.html#Post3021598

Re: Key Linkage, instead of Key Pivot ?
Charles Cohen #3039153 10/25/20 07:52 AM
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 697
B
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
B
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 697
Originally Posted by Charles Cohen
This is in the "just musing" category . . .

We assume that a DP key has a _pivot point_, and that, as you play closer to the pivot point, the leverage of your finger changes. (That is, the key becomes hard to press down, near the pivot point.)

So the distance from the end of the key, to the pivot point, is an important parameter. And the longer it is, the deeper the DP has to be, and we know about those trade-offs.

But there are _thousands_ of "linkages", known to mechanical engineers, that let a designer _simulate_ a longer lever than is physically present. One could (for example) devise a linkage that would let a key move _straight down_, along its whole length:

. . . simulating an infinite-length keystick.
I already posted this idea about 12 months ago I believe... I even registered the trademark:

InfinitePivot smile


Piano is one of the best human inventions of the past 320 years - help evangelize the magic!
Re: Key Linkage, instead of Key Pivot ?
Burkey #3039159 10/25/20 08:10 AM
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 697
B
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
B
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 697
Originally Posted by Burkey
Originally Posted by Charles Cohen
This is in the "just musing" category . . .

We assume that a DP key has a _pivot point_, and that, as you play closer to the pivot point, the leverage of your finger changes. (That is, the key becomes hard to press down, near the pivot point.)

So the distance from the end of the key, to the pivot point, is an important parameter. And the longer it is, the deeper the DP has to be, and we know about those trade-offs.

But there are _thousands_ of "linkages", known to mechanical engineers, that let a designer _simulate_ a longer lever than is physically present. One could (for example) devise a linkage that would let a key move _straight down_, along its whole length:

. . . simulating an infinite-length keystick.
I already posted this idea about 12 months ago I believe... I even registered the trademark:

InfinitePivot smile
Sorry, it was actually 15 months ago, and it was actually CyberGene:

http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2866428/burkey.html#Post2866428

And then blatent trademark infringement here:

http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2985278/clothearednincompo.html#Post2985278

Last edited by Burkey; 10/25/20 08:20 AM.

Piano is one of the best human inventions of the past 320 years - help evangelize the magic!
Re: Key Linkage, instead of Key Pivot ?
Charles Cohen #3039162 10/25/20 08:28 AM
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 697
B
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
B
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 697
Actually clothearednincompo may have beaten CyberGene to the idea by a couple of months:

http://forum.pianoworld.com//ubbthr...ure-of-dps-in-the-2020s.html#Post2835990


Piano is one of the best human inventions of the past 320 years - help evangelize the magic!
Re: Key Linkage, instead of Key Pivot ?
peterws #3039163 10/25/20 08:31 AM
Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 5,026
G
5000 Post Club Member
Offline
5000 Post Club Member
G
Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 5,026
I think a lot of us have had this idea (and posted it) over the years here, I bet the first few mentions probably predate the tenure of many of us!

Originally Posted by peterws
I imagine it would be impossible mechanically.
Peter, I wondering what aspect would impossible (or difficult from a physics perspective) here? Most buttons and keycaps out there have a linear path of motion. I suppose it's mainly a problem of complexity and cost associated with having ensuring even pressure along rectangular shaped keys, but that's kind of a mechanical tolerance issue, a solvable problem...just maybe not economical or easy to build.


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50, Kawai MP11 || Kawai NV-10
Re: Key Linkage, instead of Key Pivot ?
Charles Cohen #3039166 10/25/20 08:41 AM
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 2,803
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 2,803
I had in mind some laptop keyboard where under each key, there is sort of X which lower a side of the key if we press it at the other side.
Such an action can be difficult to build then more expensive, perhaps inefficient (a key is quite long compared to a laptop key) and can interfere with the touch/feeling.

Last edited by Frédéric L; 10/25/20 08:42 AM.

Yamaha CLP150, Bechstein Digital Grand, Garritan CFX, Ivory II pianos, Galaxy pianos, EWQL Pianos, Native-Instrument The Definitive Piano Collection, Soniccouture Hammersmith, Truekeys, Pianoteq
Re: Key Linkage, instead of Key Pivot ?
Frédéric L #3039169 10/25/20 08:47 AM
Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 5,026
G
5000 Post Club Member
Offline
5000 Post Club Member
G
Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 5,026
Originally Posted by Frédéric L
I had in mind some laptop keyboard where under each key, there is sort of X which lower a side of the key if we press it at the other side.
Such an action can be difficult to build then more expensive, perhaps inefficient (a key is quite long compared to a laptop key) and can interfere with the touch/feeling.

Like a scissor or butterfly switch? Let us all agree that Jony Ive should not design the next DP action wink


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50, Kawai MP11 || Kawai NV-10
Re: Key Linkage, instead of Key Pivot ?
Charles Cohen #3039171 10/25/20 09:00 AM
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 2,803
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 2,803
Yes, a scissor.

I didn’t know about the scissor vs. Butterfly switch

[Linked Image]


Yamaha CLP150, Bechstein Digital Grand, Garritan CFX, Ivory II pianos, Galaxy pianos, EWQL Pianos, Native-Instrument The Definitive Piano Collection, Soniccouture Hammersmith, Truekeys, Pianoteq
Re: Key Linkage, instead of Key Pivot ?
Gombessa #3039191 10/25/20 10:22 AM
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 697
B
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
B
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 697
Originally Posted by Gombessa
Let us all agree that Jony Ive should not design the next DP action wink
Yes, I expect he'll be convicted of crimes against humanity if he makes any such attempt!

Last edited by Burkey; 10/25/20 10:23 AM.

Piano is one of the best human inventions of the past 320 years - help evangelize the magic!
Re: Key Linkage, instead of Key Pivot ?
Charles Cohen #3039192 10/25/20 10:22 AM
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 697
B
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
B
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 697
Originally Posted by Frédéric L
Yes, a scissor.

I didn’t know about the scissor vs. Butterfly switch

[Linked Image]

Is the advantage of the scissor less friction than the butterfly?

Last edited by Burkey; 10/25/20 10:24 AM.

Piano is one of the best human inventions of the past 320 years - help evangelize the magic!
Re: Key Linkage, instead of Key Pivot ?
Charles Cohen #3039202 10/25/20 10:58 AM
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 2,803
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 2,803
On a «InfiniteLength » piano action, the scissors will press the opposite side down which is important if we want the hammer pushed.

On the butterfly, the opposite side may not have enough force to push the hammer and we could have a key which is not horizontal.


Yamaha CLP150, Bechstein Digital Grand, Garritan CFX, Ivory II pianos, Galaxy pianos, EWQL Pianos, Native-Instrument The Definitive Piano Collection, Soniccouture Hammersmith, Truekeys, Pianoteq
Re: Key Linkage, instead of Key Pivot ?
Charles Cohen #3039214 10/25/20 11:57 AM
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 1,260
T
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
T
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 1,260
I thought of using a scissor mechanism too. It does have sliding contacts, but the weights on a digital piano have a small amount of sliding action as well. Noise may be an issue with the increased number of bushings that can go loose.


Moderated by  Piano World 

Link Copied to Clipboard
(ad)
Pianoteq
Steinway Spiro Layering
(ad)
PianoDisc

PianoDisc
(ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad)
Mason & Hamlin Pianos
What's Hot!!
News from the Piano World
Our October 2020 Free Piano Newsletter is Here!
---------------------
3,000,000+!
------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums RULES & HELP
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Disklavier parts needed for Yamaha Mark 3 Disklavier
by Dfrankjazz - 11/28/20 10:52 PM
Pandemic a boon for piano stores?
by doremi - 11/28/20 10:37 PM
Yamaha Clavinova cvp209 Fault
by Johnnyretro - 11/28/20 09:45 PM
DGX-660: A key in a style playing wrong...
by Kruiser_56 - 11/28/20 09:23 PM
Download Sheet Music
Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads
Forum Statistics
Forums41
Topics203,119
Posts3,028,323
Members99,409
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Please Support Our Advertisers


Faust Harrison 100+ Steinways

Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver

 Best of Piano Buyer

PianoTeq Bechstein
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads



 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter |


copyright 1997 - 2020 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.4