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Wrist/forearm rotation
#3038899 10/24/20 11:31 AM
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I watched the video below the other day. I thought that the rotation tip that Lisa gave was going to be easy but my wrists just don’t want to obey.
Strangely, my left arm is better than the right but in general, whenever I lose concentration and look at my hands the wrists are locked and not rotating at all.

Does anybody know any tricks or exercises that force you to rotate the wrists as nothing I’ve tried seems to be working and my wrists always want to be static.


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Re: Wrist/forearm rotation
treefrog #3038914 10/24/20 12:19 PM
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It is not the wrist that rotates but the forearm from the elbow. The wrist can not rotate just flex. There is no particular reason why it would not work for you. Just extend your arm in front of you, hand parallel to the floor and then rotate 90 degree to put it vertical and back. Thats the movement, just in a much smaller increment. The rest is just a matter of practice. Take a fifth on your piano and practice to alternate the C and the G between 1 and 5, very slowly and then faster. Thats about it !

Re: Wrist/forearm rotation
treefrog #3038919 10/24/20 12:33 PM
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It doesn't really explain when it is helpful. Did you discuss with your teacher? I think maybe the rapid tremolo octaves it is helpful?


Re: Wrist/forearm rotation
treefrog #3038939 10/24/20 01:30 PM
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Moo
I find forearm rotation useful with virtually everything—- it might just be s small rotation if the notes are close together.


"Music, rich, full of feeling, not soulless, is like a crystal on which the sun falls and brings forth from it a whole rainbow" - F. Chopin
"I never dreamt with my own two hands I could touch the sky" - Sappho

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Re: Wrist/forearm rotation
treefrog #3038944 10/24/20 01:38 PM
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What the video doesn't tell you is that you need alignment and control in order to fully utilize rotation. The wrist doesn't move.


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Re: Wrist/forearm rotation
dogperson #3038949 10/24/20 01:43 PM
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Originally Posted by dogperson
Moo
I find forearm rotation useful with virtually everything—- it might just be s small rotation if the notes are close together.

Yes. I’ve done some research and it appears to be a fundamental part of being able to play piano without getting fatigue by sharing the exertion required across parts of your body other than just your fingers.
It also looks very natural.

I’m slowly getting there by doing it very slowly with separate hands. Sometimes I get what Lisa referred to as 'tipping' but then I lose it again.
I guess it just takes time and if it takes a few months then so be it. It’s just one of those things that the body doesn’t seem to find naturally.

Re: Wrist/forearm rotation
treefrog #3038956 10/24/20 01:59 PM
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It's what I love about 1/3 trills. You get to add a bit more rotation in there to assist with the speed than you can with consecutive fingers.

Re: Wrist/forearm rotation
treefrog #3038968 10/24/20 02:35 PM
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The thing you have to learn for rotation to work is weight transfer from the shoulder through the wrist to the finger (singular). And for that to work you need a fluid wrist, completely supple and relaxed. And the thing about rotation is it comes from your elbow not your wrist. Do what she advises and you'll screw up your wrist.

A good teacher is absolutely mandatory when you are trying to learn rotational technique.

Again, your wrist needs to be *completely* *relaxed*. If you try this with a tense wrist you will ingrain a terrible habit.


With new students Chopin was chiefly anxious to do away with any stiffness in, or cramped, or convulsive movement of the hand, thereby obtaining the first requisite of fine technique "souplesse" (suppleness). -- Carl Mikuli on Chopin the teacher.
Re: Wrist/forearm rotation
treefrog #3039016 10/24/20 04:55 PM
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When is it used? 1/3 trills I can see it can help to get the speed but presumably rare. I don't remember doing this 1/3 but maybe my lack of baroque and classical period music. I think 2/3 would be easier.

Re: Wrist/forearm rotation
treefrog #3039019 10/24/20 04:59 PM
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Perhaps my issue of these youtube tips is it's not clear when to use them in music. I have seen some pianists dancing around with all sorts of unnecessary movements. I'm not sure how common rapid octave tremolos and 1/3 trills are in music. I had rotation for grieg March of the dwarfs left hand rapid runs so it can be useful. I'm not sure how often it's used. Probably something I would discuss with a teacher. Unless a passage needs a specific technical change to achieve a sound I would be wary of introducing new techniques based on youtube clips. It may cause more issues.

Last edited by Moo :); 10/24/20 05:06 PM.
Re: Wrist/forearm rotation
treefrog #3039022 10/24/20 05:10 PM
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I would not use that video or things from that teacher, simply based on what I saw. If you need outside resources, go to Prof. Mortenson. For ultra basic things, see PianoOlogist and work through his first 30 - 40 introductory things. There is so much wrong with that video - like "a little bit of info" can be a bad thing.

And you don't do things with the wrist - the wrist doesn't do things. It's a series of joints that allow for a range of motion, maybe a recipient of motion - as soon as you try to do things with it, that in itself can mess you up.

Re: Wrist/forearm rotation
keystring #3039024 10/24/20 05:14 PM
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Originally Posted by keystring
I would not use that video or things from that teacher, simply based on what I saw. If you need outside resources, go to Prof. Mortenson. For ultra basic things, see PianoOlogist and work through his first 30 - 40 introductory things. There is so much wrong with that video - like "a little bit of info" can be a bad thing.

And you don't do things with the wrist - the wrist doesn't do things. It's a series of joints that allow for a range of motion, maybe a recipient of motion - as soon as you try to do things with it, that in itself can mess you up.


Mortensen on rotation
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4g-pgsSZCIY


"Music, rich, full of feeling, not soulless, is like a crystal on which the sun falls and brings forth from it a whole rainbow" - F. Chopin
"I never dreamt with my own two hands I could touch the sky" - Sappho

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Re: Wrist/forearm rotation
keystring #3039067 10/24/20 10:27 PM
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Originally Posted by keystring
I would not use that video or things from that teacher, simply based on what I saw. If you need outside resources, go to Prof. Mortenson. For ultra basic things, see PianoOlogist and work through his first 30 - 40 introductory things. There is so much wrong with that video - like "a little bit of info" can be a bad thing.

And you don't do things with the wrist - the wrist doesn't do things. It's a series of joints that allow for a range of motion, maybe a recipient of motion - as soon as you try to do things with it, that in itself can mess you up.

With respect, I will continue to use her videos and I will continue to take notice of what she has to say because I believe that she knows what she’s talking about.

She may not be your cup of tea but she’s mine.

Re: Wrist/forearm rotation
Moo :) #3039086 10/25/20 12:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Moo :)
When is it used? 1/3 trills I can see it can help to get the speed but presumably rare. I don't remember doing this 1/3 but maybe my lack of baroque and classical period music. I think 2/3 would be easier.

3/1 trills are very common in Baroque music, especially when you have to pivot over the thumb to get to a black key (because you don't want to use 3/2 and then land on the black key with your thumb). Also, sometimes in the L.H. (if you are right-handed) 1/3 trills are easier to do than 2/3 trills.


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Re: Wrist/forearm rotation
treefrog #3039105 10/25/20 03:55 AM
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Originally Posted by treefrog
With respect, I will continue to use her videos and I will continue to take notice of what she has to say because I believe that she knows what she’s talking about.

She may not be your cup of tea but she’s mine.
I wrote "based on what I saw", and to be fair, I only saw that video so it was hasty in that sense. This was not a matter of taste, however (cup of tea) but the video. She keeps talking about the wrist rotating, and you already had a problem of finding a stiff wrist. The rotation is the same movement that you make when you turn a doorknob and it is the forearm that rotates along its axis. She talks about the right thing - you do indeed do this kind of rotation for that kind of music - but the wrist part makes you try to do the wrong thing.

She does, in fact move her wrist; laterally side to side, in a small movement, which is correct, but she does not say so. When she plays the 6th, from C (thumb) to A, she moves her hand with a small "wrist movement" - actually the arm moving slightly to the right. This is also important because you don't necessarily want to stretch your hand out for that 6th (C to A) before playing - you can move to the A. That stretch or setting of the hand can in fact be the reason for your stiff wrist.

This is also the reason that I recommended Dr. Mortensen because he goes into this.

I have since looked at her Youtube channel. She does not teach much about technique, so you might want to supplement to get that side of it. I don't know if you also have a teacher to help you in this. She does seem to have some cool music things, and I can see why you like what she does.

Re: Wrist/forearm rotation
dogperson #3039106 10/25/20 03:56 AM
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Originally Posted by dogperson
Perfect! smile


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