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Good time to purchase a Kawai MP7SE now?
#3037798 10/20/20 04:15 PM
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Hi guys,

I initially wanted to purchase a RD-2000 because I was concerned about some Kawai actions reliability. But since then, I've found out that Kawai offer a 5 year warranty in my region, which is longer than competitors.

But the MP7SE and MP11SE were announced in October 2017, three years ago now. And from the life cycle of previous models, and new model should/may appear in the coming months. I'm not in a hurry, I still have my old Fatar keyboard Studio 900 (20 years, but with 3 keys broken now!), and will still wait until February I think.

Do you guys think it's wise to purchase it, or a new model may be released very soon? Maybe Kawai James have some information?

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Re: Good time to purchase a Kawai MP7SE now?
Mitsu #3037808 10/20/20 04:49 PM
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I wouldn't buy a piano based on the warranty.
If I believe the product has problems, I wouldn't buy it.

The problems will be a headache.
And the warranty will handle the problems only for the warranty period. After that I'm on my own.

I prefer to buy a quality product. One that needs no warranty repairs.

Re: Good time to purchase a Kawai MP7SE now?
Mitsu #3037833 10/20/20 06:56 PM
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My guess is they'll release a new MP or VPC model next year. Kawai have already released 7 new models this year - CA79, CA99, CA49, CA59, DG30, ES520, ES920.

Re: Good time to purchase a Kawai MP7SE now?
Mitsu #3037863 10/20/20 09:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Mitsu
Do you guys think it's wise to purchase it, or a new model may be released very soon? Maybe Kawai James have some information?

If you like the MP7SE, and believe its features and price are a good match for your requirements, go for it.

I do not believe the current MP models will be replaced "very soon".

Kind regards,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 & occasional rare groove player.

"I agree that the User Manual is very good." - arc7urus, March 2019
Re: Good time to purchase a Kawai MP7SE now?
MacMacMac #3037905 10/21/20 05:17 AM
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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
I wouldn't buy a piano based on the warranty.
If I believe the product has problems, I wouldn't buy it.

The problems will be a headache.
And the warranty will handle the problems only for the warranty period. After that I'm on my own.

I prefer to buy a quality product. One that needs no warranty repairs.

A company's warranty policy represents its confidence in its product. The RMA process is costly (in terms of time and/or money) for the customer as well as the company. So I would rate a product with a 10-year no questions asked warranty higher than one with a 1-year limited warranty.

You can see this play out in the computer component sector. Most DRAM manufacturers offer a lifetime warranty on their products. More and more power supply brands (white labels) have switched to a 10-year warranty on their gold/platinum certified units.

I guess the rule-of thumb to use is: the warranty on a product is inversely proportional to the number of moving parts in it.

I don't particularly mind it if a product has a short warranty as long as easily accessible service centers exist that offer cost-effective fixes to any problems that may arise.

Re: Good time to purchase a Kawai MP7SE now?
Mitsu #3037906 10/21/20 05:23 AM
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I bought ES-110 3.5 months ago and they came out with "sort of" replacement 520. I've not tried it (not yet in stores in USA West Coast) but it's heavier weight and heavier action (reportedly), so probably not interested even though some nice features.

Keeping my MP11 (not se) since saw no reason to upgrade. My Detroit keyboardist still gigs with his MP SIX (6).

And I recently bought a 96 year old tenor saxophone. So, newest isn't always best.

One BIG reason to get (or not to get) the MP7se is the key dip. It's shallow for organ use (my guess as to rationale). .7 to 1 cm for the MP11. It's why I upgraded to the MP11 (bought MP7, exchanged at store for MP11; had both at home for a month).


Selmer Mark VI Tenor (‘73) & Alto Sax (‘57), Yamaha YSS-62 Soprano Sax (‘87), Conn Naked Lady Baritone Sax (‘52), Conn New Wonder Tenor & Alto Sax (‘24), Yamaha WX5 Wind Synth (‘13), Kawai MP11 & ES-110, Numa Compact 2x, Casio PX5S, Roland VR-09, Hammond E-112 (‘69).
Re: Good time to purchase a Kawai MP7SE now?
Mitsu #3037916 10/21/20 06:22 AM
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If you like the warmer sound of Kawai DPs, I think the MP7SE is actually the best product in its price range. It's a professional stage piano, so it has more features and controls to layer and change the sound effects in real time compared to the ES series. And I think it's the best looking stage piano in its category. Solid and classy.

Is it now a good time to buy it? IMHO, absolutely yes. Its price cannot go lower than that, and right now new models are not in sight, as Kawai James confirmed.

You have just to add some good monitor speakers to it (if you want to play without headphones) and you'll have a very nice digital piano in your home/studio.

Re: Good time to purchase a Kawai MP7SE now?
Skyscrapersax #3037936 10/21/20 08:31 AM
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I don't mean I selected the MP7SE just because of its warranty. I thoroughly checked all its features, read its user manual and probably watched all videos online. I even watched videos on the ES8 to know what the tester said about its action since it's the same as on the MP7SE. So for my needs, it's a perfect keyboard, but I changed my mind and got more interested in the RD-2000 just because I had read that the RHIII action keys had many defects. So the MP7SE was my first choice, then RD-2000, then I'm now back to the MP7SE.

I thought that the Roland PHA-50 action key may be more reliable (3-year warranty), but it's no good if it works perfectly and breaks on the fourth year for example. Whereas if I get unlucky on the MP7SE the first year, then it get repaired, and breaks again on the fourth year, it will still be under warranty on the long term. All that are just assumptions, nothing might happen. And not everybody got issues with the RHIII, I also read many reviews of people being very satisfied after several years.

Just like many people, I was torn between the MP11SE and MP7SE. But I was so disappointed by the number of sounds integrated in the MP11SE compared to the less exensive MP7SE. Of course I could get an external expander (might need to buy a small one like the V3 Sound to hide it behind the DP, so that my wife doesn't see it, haha!). But the fact that the MP7SE has more integrated sounds, it's more convenient to use, and I can directly load midi files and play them (Direct Play mode if I remember the user manual, the MP7SE is GM compatible) for example, and that mode doesn't exist on the MP11SE. The MP11SE can load midi files, but only one track for piano and one track for drums. And I want to avoid using external devices. There are other aspects and compromises of course, that would be too long to talk about and argue over of course.

Originally Posted by Skyscrapersax
One BIG reason to get (or not to get) the MP7se is the key dip. It's shallow for organ use (my guess as to rationale). .7 to 1 cm for the MP11. It's why I upgraded to the MP11 (bought MP7, exchanged at store for MP11; had both at home for a month).

That's really interesting, I saw no one talking about that. So do you mean the key goes down only by 7 mm? That's really shallow, indeed. Is it down to the let-off mechanism, or down to the bottom? Why would it be that way, it's the same action on several other Kawai products, even the new ES920. I saw close-up videos on youtube, I might exactly see how deep the keys go. My current Fatar goes down by 12 mm(??), or maybe I'm not measuring the "key dip" value properly.

My main worry would be to see the successor of the MP7SE getting a GFC action (very unlikely for the goal of that stage keyboard) coming out less than a year after my purchase. My Fatar has 3 broken keys to play at home, I can still ignore them or change the scales to avoid using them, but now it's very old, I can expect more broken keys in the near future...

Thank you all for you time and help!

Re: Good time to purchase a Kawai MP7SE now?
Mitsu #3037957 10/21/20 09:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Mitsu
I don't mean I selected the MP7SE just because of its warranty. I thoroughly checked all its features, read its user manual and probably watched all videos online. I even watched videos on the ES8 to know what the tester said about its action since it's the same as on the MP7SE. So for my needs, it's a perfect keyboard, but I changed my mind and got more interested in the RD-2000 just because I had read that the RHIII action keys had many defects. So the MP7SE was my first choice, then RD-2000, then I'm now back to the MP7SE.

I thought that the Roland PHA-50 action key may be more reliable (3-year warranty), but it's no good if it works perfectly and breaks on the fourth year for example. Whereas if I get unlucky on the MP7SE the first year, then it get repaired, and breaks again on the fourth year, it will still be under warranty on the long term. All that are just assumptions, nothing might happen. And not everybody got issues with the RHIII, I also read many reviews of people being very satisfied after several years.

Just like many people, I was torn between the MP11SE and MP7SE. But I was so disappointed by the number of sounds integrated in the MP11SE compared to the less exensive MP7SE. Of course I could get an external expander (might need to buy a small one like the V3 Sound to hide it behind the DP, so that my wife doesn't see it, haha!). But the fact that the MP7SE has more integrated sounds, it's more convenient to use, and I can directly load midi files and play them (Direct Play mode if I remember the user manual, the MP7SE is GM compatible) for example, and that mode doesn't exist on the MP11SE. The MP11SE can load midi files, but only one track for piano and one track for drums. And I want to avoid using external devices. There are other aspects and compromises of course, that would be too long to talk about and argue over of course.

Originally Posted by Skyscrapersax
One BIG reason to get (or not to get) the MP7se is the key dip. It's shallow for organ use (my guess as to rationale). .7 to 1 cm for the MP11. It's why I upgraded to the MP11 (bought MP7, exchanged at store for MP11; had both at home for a month).

That's really interesting, I saw no one talking about that. So do you mean the key goes down only by 7 mm? That's really shallow, indeed. Is it down to the let-off mechanism, or down to the bottom? Why would it be that way, it's the same action on several other Kawai products, even the new ES920. I saw close-up videos on youtube, I might exactly see how deep the keys go. My current Fatar goes down by 12 mm(??), or maybe I'm not measuring the "key dip" value properly.

My main worry would be to see the successor of the MP7SE getting a GFC action (very unlikely for the goal of that stage keyboard) coming out less than a year after my purchase. My Fatar has 3 broken keys to play at home, I can still ignore them or change the scales to avoid using them, but now it's very old, I can expect more broken keys in the near future...

Thank you all for you time and help!

The keybed issue is relevant to the first batch of MP7SEs produced in 2017. Anything manufactured after that is flawless. You won't be able to find MP7SE from 2017 brand new anymore.

MP7SE has a "fast touch mode" for playing the organ. This setting parameter is called "trigger mode" and you can set it to fast/normal which is shallow/normal. You want normal touch, setting to normal! For drawbar, it's better to set it to fast. Have you seen an organ keybed with escapements?

These measurements are all questionable. Drawbar organ is a non-touch sensitive instrument. This is night and day different from a piano. In a piano, at velocity 0 we don't hear anything at all. When you pass the escapement the hammer is thrown at the strings, so reaching the bottom of the keybed in an acoustic piano is not a factor of when it sounds!

I believe what Skyscrapersax is saying doesn't make sense and is an over statement.

RHIII is used in Nord Grand.


MP7SE, compared to all the stage keyboards in the market, has the best set of features per price if you consider sounds and controlling features. Of course, measures vary, if you're looking for an audio interface you should look elsewhere.

Last edited by Abdol; 10/21/20 09:45 AM.

Kawai MP7SE, Yamaha MOTF XF6, Yamaha WX5, Yamaha Pacifica 112v
Re: Good time to purchase a Kawai MP7SE now?
Mitsu #3037979 10/21/20 10:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Mitsu
Hi guys,

I initially wanted to purchase a RD-2000 because I was concerned about some Kawai actions reliability. But since then, I've found out that Kawai offer a 5 year warranty in my region, which is longer than competitors.

But the MP7SE and MP11SE were announced in October 2017, three years ago now. And from the life cycle of previous models, and new model should/may appear in the coming months. I'm not in a hurry, I still have my old Fatar keyboard Studio 900 (20 years, but with 3 keys broken now!), and will still wait until February I think.

Do you guys think it's wise to purchase it, or a new model may be released very soon? Maybe Kawai James have some information?

Good time to buy used: Yes.
Good time to buy new: depends?

If you play the latest CA99, and compare it to the ES8 and ES920, how much advancement in a-piano sampling has occurred?

The MP11SE as a concept has only got one way to go in order to further increase its competitive edge: deeper. They would need to put the GFII or GFIII into the slab format. If the sampling hasn't improved that much, there would seem to be no basis except action upgrade to release an upgrade to the MP11SE concept. It would take careful conjoint analysis to determine if there is a viable market for a weightier slab with better action.

Other options for the Kawai are to upgrade the functionality on the MP12 to match the RD2000, whilst including the GFIII, and shedding weight by utilising composites instead of metal in the case etc.

In that mode, the MP9 would be a similar spec to the MP12 (8-10 internal /extenal parts, built in audio interface, knobs and sliders like on the RD2000 for real time effects) but much lighter than the MP12. The MP9 would have to appeal to the gigging musician carrying it around, hence, lighter action, lighter board.

Personally, I really like the Dexibel vivo S9 Pro, with its magnetically controlled sliders etc. I think at this side of the stage piano market (with the CP88, Nord Grand and Sv2 going for the functionally lighter approach), Kawai should look at the Rd2000, Dexibel, and Kurweil concepts: acquiring any useful concept.

I also think that we should see Kawai offer purpose built Onkyo powered monitors or tower PA systems for their stage and slab models as the logical next step in that collaboration. If Nord can release its monitors, why not?

I would also like to see a slopping interface like on the Nord Grand, although maybe the angle should be alterable.


So, whilst there is a lot of possibilities for an upgraded MP series, I'm not convinced that currently, there is a motive to update these boards. The a-piano sampling improvement needs to be noticeably improved rather than quite subtle. Also, the RD2000 update: Kawai are better off awaiting the release of the RDX000 to see what their up against.


I would like to tell you that the MP7SE is a really great instrument. The Dexibel maybe better but not in action, and not in epiano, organ and synth sound quality. The value for money of the MP7SE is a reason in itself. IMO, there is no better compromise for the stage musician at that price (for action, functionality and sound quality) available, unless you want really light weight, with more real-time less centralised control.

Last edited by Doug M.; 10/21/20 10:37 AM.

Instruments: Current - Kawai MP7SE; Past - Kawai MP7, Yamaha PSR7000
Software: Sibelius 7; Neuratron Photoscore Pro 8
Stand: K&M 18953 Table-style Stage Piano Stand
Re: Good time to purchase a Kawai MP7SE now?
Abdol #3038017 10/21/20 12:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Abdol
That's really interesting, I saw no one talking about that. So do you mean the key goes down only by 7 mm? That's really shallow, indeed. Is it down to the let-off mechanism, or down to the bottom? Why would it be that way, it's the same action on several other Kawai products, even the new ES920. I saw close-up videos on youtube, I might exactly see how deep the keys go. My current Fatar goes down by 12 mm(??), or maybe I'm not measuring the "key dip" value properly.

MP7SE has a "fast touch mode" for playing the organ. This setting parameter is called "trigger mode" and you can set it to fast/normal which is shallow/normal. You want normal touch, setting to normal! For drawbar, it's better to set it to fast. Have you seen an organ keybed with escapements?

These measurements are all questionable. Drawbar organ is a non-touch sensitive instrument. This is night and day different from a piano. In a piano, at velocity 0 we don't hear anything at all. When you pass the escapement the hammer is thrown at the strings, so reaching the bottom of the keybed in an acoustic piano is not a factor of when it sounds!

I believe what Skyscrapersax is saying doesn't make sense and is an over statement.

1. It's not an overstatement. I had both MP7 and MP11 at home for a month. I ordered MP7 first. I immediately said "what's wrong with this keybed?" It took me a while to figuure out what Kawai was going for here....

2. My first instrument was Hammond Organ. I started playing it the month before Woodstock (July, 1969). I own a Hammond E-112 (Keith Emerson's choice to throw knives at...). 350 pounds....

3. The MP7 (I assume MP7se...) has a shallow key dip for fast organ playing with the above mode. .7 is to the bottom. It's a "compromise" action and I would be surprised if it's used in the 920 (as same doesn't have the MP7's organ capabilities [at least I don't think it does - I've been following the 520]). Playing organ on a 1 cm keydip action isn't great, especially for smears.

4. The guy who runs Kawai America had both in his office and didn't notice the key dip. Just measure it. I didn't like MP7's .7 keydip for Jazz piano playing. You can "swim" in an MP11's 1 cm key dip keybed, not so with MP7. I checked 100 year old Steinways (which I love) at the music school. 1 cm keydip.

5. MP7 is a professional stage piano, meant to replace 2 tier of DP and Organ. And it does a great job of that.

Last edited by Skyscrapersax; 10/21/20 12:09 PM.

Selmer Mark VI Tenor (‘73) & Alto Sax (‘57), Yamaha YSS-62 Soprano Sax (‘87), Conn Naked Lady Baritone Sax (‘52), Conn New Wonder Tenor & Alto Sax (‘24), Yamaha WX5 Wind Synth (‘13), Kawai MP11 & ES-110, Numa Compact 2x, Casio PX5S, Roland VR-09, Hammond E-112 (‘69).
Re: Good time to purchase a Kawai MP7SE now?
Skyscrapersax #3038038 10/21/20 01:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Skyscrapersax
1. It's not an overstatement. I had both MP7 and MP11 at home for a month. I ordered MP7 first. I immediately said "what's wrong with this keybed?" It took me a while to figuure out what Kawai was going for here....

2. My first instrument was Hammond Organ. I started playing it the month before Woodstock (July, 1969). I own a Hammond E-112 (Keith Emerson's choice to throw knives at...). 350 pounds....

3. The MP7 (I assume MP7se...) has a shallow key dip for fast organ playing with the above mode. .7 is to the bottom. It's a "compromise" action and I would be surprised if it's used in the 920 (as same doesn't have the MP7's organ capabilities [at least I don't think it does - I've been following the 520]). Playing organ on a 1 cm keydip action isn't great, especially for smears.

4. The guy who runs Kawai America had both in his office and didn't notice the key dip. Just measure it. I didn't like MP7's .7 keydip for Jazz piano playing. You can "swim" in an MP11's 1 cm key dip keybed, not so with MP7. I checked 100 year old Steinways (which I love) at the music school. 1 cm keydip.

5. MP7 is a professional stage piano, meant to replace 2 tier of DP and Organ. And it does a great job of that.

MP7 has RHII action while MP7SE has RHIII action.

Here is a link to the comparison of these two actions:

http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2455407/Kawai_RHII_vs_RHIII_actions.html

Your assumption doesn't seem correct to me. Here is why:

I would still say your statement is not accurate. For many reasons. Just take a look at your own statements. RHII in MP7 is different, the measurements you mentioned IMHO can't be done accurately (as well as irrelevant to RHIII).

So here is the biggest difference:

Kawai MP7 (your keyboard) has 3 fast modes: Normal, Off-fast1, and Off-fast2. This option isn't available in MP7SE (RHIII). There is only one fast mode. RHIII is one generation after RHII so generalizing your experience with MP7 to MP7SE doesn't make sense.

Last edited by Abdol; 10/21/20 01:22 PM.

Kawai MP7SE, Yamaha MOTF XF6, Yamaha WX5, Yamaha Pacifica 112v
Re: Good time to purchase a Kawai MP7SE now?
Abdol #3038060 10/21/20 02:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Abdol
MP7 has RHII action while MP7SE has RHIII action.

Here is a link to the comparison of these two actions:

http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2455407/Kawai_RHII_vs_RHIII_actions.html

Your assumption doesn't seem correct to me. Here is why:

I would still say your statement is not accurate. For many reasons. Just take a look at your own statements. RHII in MP7 is different, the measurements you mentioned IMHO can't be done accurately (as well as irrelevant to RHIII).

So here is the biggest difference:

Kawai MP7 (your keyboard) has 3 fast modes: Normal, Off-fast1, and Off-fast2. This option isn't available in MP7SE (RHIII). There is only one fast mode. RHIII is one generation after RHII so generalizing your experience with MP7 to MP7SE doesn't make sense.

1. I bought and returned MP7, not the MP7se. I bought and kept MP11 (not the MP11se). The key dip difference between MP7 and MP11 is .3 cm. I measured it very carefully and it is palpable to anybody who plays these keyboards side by side. My position is irrefutable regarding MP7 versus MP11. I owned both. Did you?

2. Did Kawai ditch the organ optimized .7 keydip action of MP7 for MP7se? I have no idea. If so, however, it would negatively affect the organ characteristic of the keybed. .7 is better for organ playing than 1.0 cm.

3. Regardless, just measure the key dip! Maybe you like a shallow key dip for piano; I don't. As I stated, even the guy who RUNS KAWAI AMERICA was not aware of this difference. I'd be interested to know what the key dips are on these. ES-110 is 1 cm, btw, and feels great.


Selmer Mark VI Tenor (‘73) & Alto Sax (‘57), Yamaha YSS-62 Soprano Sax (‘87), Conn Naked Lady Baritone Sax (‘52), Conn New Wonder Tenor & Alto Sax (‘24), Yamaha WX5 Wind Synth (‘13), Kawai MP11 & ES-110, Numa Compact 2x, Casio PX5S, Roland VR-09, Hammond E-112 (‘69).
Re: Good time to purchase a Kawai MP7SE now?
Abdol #3038062 10/21/20 02:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Abdol
Originally Posted by Skyscrapersax
1. It's not an overstatement. I had both MP7 and MP11 at home for a month. I ordered MP7 first. I immediately said "what's wrong with this keybed?" It took me a while to figuure out what Kawai was going for here....

2. My first instrument was Hammond Organ. I started playing it the month before Woodstock (July, 1969). I own a Hammond E-112 (Keith Emerson's choice to throw knives at...). 350 pounds....

3. The MP7 (I assume MP7se...) has a shallow key dip for fast organ playing with the above mode. .7 is to the bottom. It's a "compromise" action and I would be surprised if it's used in the 920 (as same doesn't have the MP7's organ capabilities [at least I don't think it does - I've been following the 520]). Playing organ on a 1 cm keydip action isn't great, especially for smears.

4. The guy who runs Kawai America had both in his office and didn't notice the key dip. Just measure it. I didn't like MP7's .7 keydip for Jazz piano playing. You can "swim" in an MP11's 1 cm key dip keybed, not so with MP7. I checked 100 year old Steinways (which I love) at the music school. 1 cm keydip.

5. MP7 is a professional stage piano, meant to replace 2 tier of DP and Organ. And it does a great job of that.

MP7 has RHII action while MP7SE has RHIII action.

Here is a link to the comparison of these two actions:

http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2455407/Kawai_RHII_vs_RHIII_actions.html

Your assumption doesn't seem correct to me. Here is why:

I would still say your statement is not accurate. For many reasons. Just take a look at your own statements. RHII in MP7 is different, the measurements you mentioned IMHO can't be done accurately (as well as irrelevant to RHIII).

So here is the biggest difference:

Kawai MP7 (your keyboard) has 3 fast modes: Normal, Off-fast1, and Off-fast2. This option isn't available in MP7SE (RHIII). There is only one fast mode. RHIII is one generation after RHII so generalizing your experience with MP7 to MP7SE doesn't make sense.


There is something more problematic to such distinctions: in order to create relevant frame of reference, how does the RHII and RHIII action characteristics compare with other digital pianos and also other upright and grand piano acoustic actions? No point in complaining if the trait is different from instruments you've played but not that unusual persay.

As pointed out, stage pianos are not designed to be exclusively acoustic piano emulations: cash strapped bands need organs, synth, pianos, pads and other sounds all dealt with on one action. Ofcourse it's going to be a compromise. The CP4 and CP88 action NW-GH is exceedingly quick, grand for playing Billy Joel's: Prelude, Angry Young Man. Is that action similar to a grand piano? Not at all: the MP7SE feels somewhat better in that regard.

There are lots of reasons for the design characteristics of digital actions. The user gets used to their own instrument and thus feels different actions peculiar - - - not news to me! Not only did I begin playing organs (if you discount the 4-hours I spent on an acoustic upright, age 3), I have noticed significant variety between arranger keyboards, organs, digital pianos and acoustic pianos---over a span of 30 years.

You should know: compared to digital actions around in 1987, all modern digital piano actions are awesome, even actions today we consider cheap.

I think that when you compare eg, the Avant Grand action with any digital action that isn't a hybrid, the gap between the best action [GFIII] and the Avant Grand or Novus NV10 actions, the difference is far greater than the difference between the £600 digital action and the £6,000 top tier cabinet digitals.

Last edited by Doug M.; 10/21/20 02:19 PM.

Instruments: Current - Kawai MP7SE; Past - Kawai MP7, Yamaha PSR7000
Software: Sibelius 7; Neuratron Photoscore Pro 8
Stand: K&M 18953 Table-style Stage Piano Stand
Re: Good time to purchase a Kawai MP7SE now?
Mitsu #3038088 10/21/20 03:43 PM
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I checked the video on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CMLwYbtLVYw&feature=youtu.be&t=27

By measuring the width of the key on the screen and comparing it to the real size of a key, I could calculate how low the keep was going, and the total I got was 1.02 cm. Yes I think the RHII might have been more shallow, but the RHIII (on the MP7SE, not the MP7) seems ok. 0.7cm is really too low for me, but it must have only concerned the MP7.

Re: Good time to purchase a Kawai MP7SE now?
Skyscrapersax #3038089 10/21/20 03:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Skyscrapersax
Originally Posted by Abdol
MP7 has RHII action while MP7SE has RHIII action.

Here is a link to the comparison of these two actions:

http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2455407/Kawai_RHII_vs_RHIII_actions.html

Your assumption doesn't seem correct to me. Here is why:

I would still say your statement is not accurate. For many reasons. Just take a look at your own statements. RHII in MP7 is different, the measurements you mentioned IMHO can't be done accurately (as well as irrelevant to RHIII).

So here is the biggest difference:

Kawai MP7 (your keyboard) has 3 fast modes: Normal, Off-fast1, and Off-fast2. This option isn't available in MP7SE (RHIII). There is only one fast mode. RHIII is one generation after RHII so generalizing your experience with MP7 to MP7SE doesn't make sense.

1. I bought and returned MP7, not the MP7se. I bought and kept MP11 (not the MP11se). The key dip difference between MP7 and MP11 is .3 cm. I measured it very carefully and it is palpable to anybody who plays these keyboards side by side. My position is irrefutable regarding MP7 versus MP11. I owned both. Did you?

2. Did Kawai ditch the organ optimized .7 keydip action of MP7 for MP7se? I have no idea. If so, however, it would negatively affect the organ characteristic of the keybed. .7 is better for organ playing than 1.0 cm.

3. Regardless, just measure the key dip! Maybe you like a shallow key dip for piano; I don't. As I stated, even the guy who RUNS KAWAI AMERICA was not aware of this difference. I'd be interested to know what the key dips are on these. ES-110 is 1 cm, btw, and feels great.


RHIII is used in ES8 as well. In the new DG30 (7000USD) and Nord Grand and a few more digital pianos' by Kawai.

I highly doubt I need to measure my keydip but to assure you, I will do it this afternoon! Although I see -0- point in doing it so. I'm expecting a 1-2mm (at least) error in my measurements. Extra 1-2mm error in the measuring tool so easily 2-3 mm error is expected.

If I owned a physics lab with laser measuring tools, then I was going to say less than 1mm error. But with a measuring tape, and the keybed plastic pad/felt pad under it, 1-2 mm difference in traveled distance is pretty natural even if you measure an acoustic piano's keydip!

Last edited by Abdol; 10/21/20 03:59 PM.

Kawai MP7SE, Yamaha MOTF XF6, Yamaha WX5, Yamaha Pacifica 112v
Re: Good time to purchase a Kawai MP7SE now?
Mitsu #3038137 10/21/20 08:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Mitsu
Originally Posted by Skyscrapersax
One BIG reason to get (or not to get) the MP7se is the key dip. It's shallow for organ use (my guess as to rationale). .7 to 1 cm for the MP11. It's why I upgraded to the MP11 (bought MP7, exchanged at store for MP11; had both at home for a month).

That's really interesting, I saw no one talking about that.

I don't think I've seen anyone talking about that either, which perhaps suggests that it's not a problem for the tens of thousands of customers that play a Kawai instrument utilising the same RHIII keyboard action.

Kind regards,
James
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Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 & occasional rare groove player.

"I agree that the User Manual is very good." - arc7urus, March 2019
Re: Good time to purchase a Kawai MP7SE now?
Skyscrapersax #3038160 10/21/20 11:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Skyscrapersax
1. I bought and returned MP7, not the MP7se. I bought and kept MP11 (not the MP11se). The key dip difference between MP7 and MP11 is .3 cm. I measured it very carefully and it is palpable to anybody who plays these keyboards side by side. My position is irrefutable regarding MP7 versus MP11. I owned both. Did you?

2. Did Kawai ditch the organ optimized .7 keydip action of MP7 for MP7se? I have no idea. If so, however, it would negatively affect the organ characteristic of the keybed. .7 is better for organ playing than 1.0 cm.

3. Regardless, just measure the key dip! Maybe you like a shallow key dip for piano; I don't. As I stated, even the guy who RUNS KAWAI AMERICA was not aware of this difference. I'd be interested to know what the key dips are on these. ES-110 is 1 cm, btw, and feels great.

So I just tried to see what is a keydip. I initially played with a key to see what's a good way to measure the traveled depth...

I spent 2 seconds and realized that measuring it is not going to work. Here is why:

1- Gently press a key so that it goes all the way down and reaches the bottom
2- When at the bottom, put more pressure slowly and you'll see it will go further down! It all depends on how hard you press the key.

I don't know how you measured the key dip, my friend but since fingers exert force at different levels some sometimes it's 1mm, sometimes 3mm...

To me it doesn't seem like a repeatable experiment.

Last edited by Abdol; 10/21/20 11:06 PM.

Kawai MP7SE, Yamaha MOTF XF6, Yamaha WX5, Yamaha Pacifica 112v
Re: Good time to purchase a Kawai MP7SE now?
Mitsu #3038196 10/22/20 04:26 AM
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Question: what exactly is this "keydip". At first I thought it would be the distance the key travels whan pressed. On my ES8, is is around 10mm (maybe a bit more) measured with a steel measuring tape close to the front edge. As I read 3mm and 7mm above, now I started to doubt of my interpretation. So, please, enlighten me.

Last edited by EVC2017; 10/22/20 04:28 AM.

Kawai ES8, Roland RD2000, Yamaha AG06 mixer, Presonus Eris E5 monitors, Sennheiser HD598SR phones.
Re: Good time to purchase a Kawai MP7SE now?
Mitsu #3038199 10/22/20 04:42 AM
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Of course it's a matter of personal preference. All I did was use a measuring tape, on new actions, with I assume similar felt treatments. The difference is quite large: 30% (.7 cm versus 1 cm). And all that did was confirm what my fingers intuitively told me immediately: the MP7's keybed just didn't feel "right" to me. You can measure acoustic pianos key dips and they will vary. I've stated my preference for 1 cm, which, upon information and belief, is "standard." Perhaps somebody could measure MP7 versus MP7se to determine if this design feature was changed?

I'm very attuned to key height and travel; perhaps others are not. On saxophone, I make extrusions to change the height of the keys to accommodate my large hands and fingers (my spread on piano is an easy C to G with Eb, G, Bb in between, like Rachmaninoff). Changing key travel itself changes pitch.

Please note that I am not denigrating the MP7's design choice. I'm a big Kawai fan and own two of their keyboards (MP11 and ES-110). And I do think the .7 key dip on the MP7 is a brilliant accommodation. But I prefer a larger key movement experience. I have seriously giant hands. Players with smaller hands might not notice it as much.


Selmer Mark VI Tenor (‘73) & Alto Sax (‘57), Yamaha YSS-62 Soprano Sax (‘87), Conn Naked Lady Baritone Sax (‘52), Conn New Wonder Tenor & Alto Sax (‘24), Yamaha WX5 Wind Synth (‘13), Kawai MP11 & ES-110, Numa Compact 2x, Casio PX5S, Roland VR-09, Hammond E-112 (‘69).
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