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Hi, I'm preparing the 2021/22 ABRSM grade 8 exam - the recorded performance option, where you record your performance and send them the video file. I'm using my trusty 20-year-old Clavinova CVP103 to study. A friend has said that the Clavinova might not go down so well with an examiner at G8. I was considering getting a new Yamaha B1 to do my G8 on - and also because I haven't had an acoustic for 30-odd years and would like one. I only have space for a compact piano. My question is this: would a new B1 be suitable for recording a grade 8 performance? Many thanks for any views.

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Recording for a grade 8 exam I would try to use the best piano
I can. I would make sure the instrument has been tuned a few days before.
So the Associated Board GR 8 is equal to GR 10 of the Royal
Conservatory. So quite an advanced grade. You really need at least a studio size upright piano (48")
The B1 Yamaha is really quite a small entry level piano. How tall is the instrument ? You need a piano with a full sound to the bass and of course the treble must be equally rich.
Is it not possible to look for a used U1 or a K300 Kawai? Of course if you have a friend with a nice grand .......but perhaps not convenient for them or perhaps yourself....?

So no I really think a B1 Yamaha is really not a piano to record for an advanced exam.
You may of course be able to hire an accoustic piano ?
Remember the recording has to be musical, you want an instrument where response and the tone is as creative as possible.

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There are a number of "demo" videos of the B1 on Youtube. In only one I watched was the performer playing a classical piece - and a fairly easy one at that. All other demos featured jazz or popular pieces. In some videos, the 43 inch tall B1 sounded quite thin - in others the sound was fuller and warmer. The B1 might be fine for your home use - but for an exam tape you probably should find something better to record on. Do you have any friends who own acoustic pianos? Do you have access to a grand piano in a local church that you could use for a 2-3 hour recording session?


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aquatarkus, welcome to the forum and good luck on your Grade 8 exam with the ABRSM. I would actually disagree with your friend that a digital piano may not go down well with the examiner. Although it wasn't Grade 8, when I took Grade 5 and 6, they were both done on digital pianos (must to my disgust at the time...)! That said, I did my Grade 5 and 6 exams with the LCM board rather than ABRSM (various reasons but they are ultimately of the same standard). I seem to recall though that the exam boards stipulate that digital pianos can be used so long as they have a graded weighted touch like a real acoustic piano would.

Now, as for the Yamaha B1, I am not a particular fan of this piano and think there are far better pianos out there around a similar price range/size. I grew up with a Kawai K-15 E for quite some time and this got me through Grade 8 easily. In comparison to the Yamaha, I'm of the opinion that the Kawai is far better built, has a better sound/tone and is more durable in the long run. It benefits from a solid spruce soundboard whereas I think (if memory serves me correct) the Yamaha has a laminated soundboard. In simple English, the Kawai's is much better. This is quite important if you think that the soundboard acts as the 'heart' of a piano responsible for amplifying the sound and helping to produce a tone that will carry.

In my advice, if you're looking for a small 44" piano then look at the Kawai - there are few good other alternatives. However, if you can stretch both size and budget I would suggest looking at some alternatives such as:

- Yamaha B Series
- Yamaha P Series (this is my preference over the B Series. The U Series is even better but starts getting pricy)
- Feurich
- Venables & Son (probably the best quality piano for the money you will find. Happy to go into more detail having previously owned a Venables)

There are of course a plethora of other pianos to the above that I would love to recommend but we start getting into some serious £££... if money was no object I'd say buy a Steingraeber 138!

I hope you don't mind me asking but whereabouts in the world are you? This may help some of us offer some slightly more tailored advice especially in terms of recommending piano showrooms/dealers that are near to you.

Kind regards,

Will


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The P series is too small for really practicing on or recording on for a Gr 8 exam. With a B3 you have a bigger soundboard and longer strings. The tone of that piano to me is not really
nice at all.
Look for a used U1 or better a U3 or a Kawai K300 or better
a K500. If the piano is a used "grey" piano I would advise caution., They may be good, or they may be useless.

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Thank you, Will. So kind of you to answer so fully - lots to think about there, so I’ll give it all some thought. I do like the look of the Kawai K15, and very interested to learn that it got you to G8. But will look at the other options too. I’m in Northampton UK, so central England. Thanks again!
Ian

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Both B1 and K15 are around 43” tall. I’m afraid they have a console action as opposed to a typical size direct blow action that taller uprights have. At Gr8 level playing, I feel you’d benefit from a taller piano that allows better touch and control, especially for exams and recitals. I would rather go for a used u1/u3/k300/k500 in good condition than a brand new b1/k15.

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Originally Posted by aquatarkus
Thank you, Will. So kind of you to answer so fully - lots to think about there, so I’ll give it all some thought. I do like the look of the Kawai K15, and very interested to learn that it got you to G8. But will look at the other options too. I’m in Northampton UK, so central England. Thanks again!
Ian

There may be somewhere closer but Chesham is not an impossible distance away. Just at the moment with Covid starting to spiral out of control it is not a good time, but once it is knocked back to where it was a few weeks ago you're welcome to use my K800 for recording some pieces.

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Originally Posted by gwing
Originally Posted by aquatarkus
Thank you, Will. So kind of you to answer so fully - lots to think about there, so I’ll give it all some thought. I do like the look of the Kawai K15, and very interested to learn that it got you to G8. But will look at the other options too. I’m in Northampton UK, so central England. Thanks again!
Ian
There may be somewhere closer but Chesham is not an impossible distance away. Just at the moment with Covid starting to spiral out of control it is not a good time, but once it is knocked back to where it was a few weeks ago you're welcome to use my K800 for recording some pieces.
A very generous and kind offer - and lucky you to own a K-800. smile


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Originally Posted by Lady Bird
The P series is too small for really practicing on or recording on for a Gr 8 exam. With a B3 you have a bigger soundboard and longer strings. The tone of that piano to me is not really
nice at all.
Look for a used U1 or better a U3 or a Kawai K300 or better
a K500. If the piano is a used "grey" piano I would advise caution., They may be good, or they may be useless.

Lady Bird, I'm not quite sure what you mean by the 'P series being too small for practicing on'? Their smallest one in the range is still larger than a B1 by 7cm in height... are you getting confused with the P Series digital keyboards that Yamaha produce? I am talking about the P Series acoustic uprights that Yamaha produce exclusively for the European market - I don't think they're available in Canada where you are based.

I have played a Yamaha P121 extensively in the past and thought it to be a very fine piano as far as that tier of piano is concerned. It would be more than suitable for Grade 8 and in my opinion is a far better instrument than any B Series model Yamaha produces. FYI the P121 is the same height as a B3.


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Originally Posted by aquatarkus
Thank you, Will. So kind of you to answer so fully - lots to think about there, so I’ll give it all some thought. I do like the look of the Kawai K15, and very interested to learn that it got you to G8. But will look at the other options too. I’m in Northampton UK, so central England. Thanks again!
Ian

Ian, you are most welcome. There are very few of us Brits lurking around this forum so it is always nice to see another (virtual) face from this side of the pond! I am based down south myself so am not particularly au fait with which piano showrooms are good to visit in your neck of the woods. The only one I can think of (and this is still a lengthy drive from where you are) is Besbrode Pianos in Leeds. That said, the lengthy drives are often worth it for the right piano...!

Please do reach out if I can be of any further assistance be that on this thread or via private message. Good luck in your search and most importantly, play lots of pianos and enjoy the process!


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Originally Posted by williambonard
Originally Posted by Lady Bird
The P series is too small for really practicing on or recording on for a Gr 8 exam. With a B3 you have a bigger soundboard and longer strings. The tone of that piano to me is not really
nice at all.
Look for a used U1 or better a U3 or a Kawai K300 or better
a K500. If the piano is a used "grey" piano I would advise caution., They may be good, or they may be useless.

Lady Bird, I'm not quite sure what you mean by the 'P series being too small for practicing on'? Their smallest one in the range is still larger than a B1 by 7cm in height... are you getting confused with the P Series digital keyboards that Yamaha produce? I am talking about the P Series acoustic uprights that Yamaha produce exclusively for the European market - I don't think they're available in Canada where you are based.

I have played a Yamaha P121 extensively in the past and thought it to be a very fine piano as far as that tier of piano is concerned. It would be more than suitable for Grade 8 and in my opinion is a far better instrument than any B Series model Yamaha produces. FYI the P121 is the same height as a B3.
As a teacher I would not recommend such small piano as one of the P series for recording for a Gr8 Associated Board or a grade 10 Royal Conservatory exam, they are rather small instruments
The pieces are quite "big" then you have the two studies ,all the technical things, scales ,broken chords , Major Minor , Diminished ,arpeggios all in four octaves.
It is extremely kind of gwing to allow his wonderful Kawai K800 to be used for the exam. Good luck on your exam !

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aquatarkus, to answer your question very simply - would a Yamaha B1 be a good enough piano to record your Grade 8 ABRSM piece on?

Yes, it would. It would be perfectly possible to do this, it would be acceptable to the exam board, and you'd have no problems with it.

Your Yamaha Clavinova CVP103, for that matter, would also be good enough to do it on because there are guidelines and regulations in place about the use of digital pianos for grade exams, and the stipulation is 88 key hammer action keyboard, touch sensitive keys, and a recognisable piano sound. That might have changed over the years but that was put in place in 1990.

Now, the other posters here have said that the B1 this and that - what they mean is that there are pianos preferable to the B1, which sound better and play better, and will be more pleasing to play and better develop your playing over time. That said, a B1 would be already a big step over the CVP103.

The piano market has changed since 1990. At the low end of the new market, there were all sorts of sloppy pianos being made from surprising countries of origin (yes - some of the crap pianos were even British and German! Who'd have thought!), and most amateur players were still playing on all sorts of absolute junkers with straight strung frames, over-damper actions, things that had been in the family since grandma's mother bought it in 1910. A lot of these old junker uprights have, thankfully, moved on to piano heaven. Even the Yamaha CLP725 which is the current entry level Clavinova, or the Roland HP704 the current entry level Roland are far superior instruments musically speaking, to the piano I had for my Grade 8.

The time we are living in now is the best ever time to be thinking about a new piano. Without sounding like a sympathy seeker, a Yamaha B1 is a much better piano than I had when I sat my Grade 8, far superior in every way, and I don't think I did too badly in terms of learning how to play the piano.

All that said, I'd prefer something like a YUS5 or a Kawai K800! Or even better, a Bösendorfer 130 how about that.....!

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Joe

I really, really do not think you should compare yourself , to aquatarkus ! You would have been incredibly even on a "broken Belarus". Those pupils I taught for grade 10 exam and the grade 8 ., I would never have considered able if they did not have a reasonable size, MUSICAL piano. I am sorry that B series , those creatures are terrible. They have no tone for a start, just no tone !
It was difficult enough to try to get them to play just a musical, expressive performance. The opus 10 Beethoven in C minor ,second movement, just the opening A flat , to just get the "right opening chord " not a clang but the "beginning of ...........a dream ..."played on my Kawai grand.
How on earth on one of those ?
Just imagine practicing for months on a B1 , keeping your concentration focused with that "unclear ping"

The last time I taught grade 8 Associated Board was about 19 years ago .Perhaps it does not involve as much work as the recent grade 10 Royal Conservatory exam ? (where I successfully guided music pupils through the grade 10 exam ) Rather choose one of the P series than a B1. Actually I do not know if the B1 piano would last through all the work needed for that exam ? Technician we would need you !
I realise fully you may regard me as a mediocre teacher and you are obviously a performer., But that also may count against you and your perception ......unless aquatarkus has a real ability, and can really focus as you obviously can I would say avoid the B1.
Has aquatarkus practiced on an accoustic piano before ?

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Hi LadyBird, to answer some of your points - and I'm not disagreeing with you here -

But I think a Yamaha B1 would get through a Grade 8 exam, and it would be adequate for recording the repertoire. It's quite difficult sometimes to say negative things on this forum because one doesn't want to come across as insulting or bullish - and there are probably a few happy B1 owners who check into this forum - but yes I agree the B1 would hardly be my first choice of piano. I don't like its tone very much. The action is OK, it's Yamaha's standard action they put in a small upright. The scale of the B1 is very similar to the small Kemble that used to be made in Britain, I think it's called the Oxford. Anyway the Kemble Oxford was actually a rather nice piano in its class but the original B1 had some things that were changed for the sake of lowering the price. I don't know what new B1s are like in comparison although I'm aware of some changes, or at least I think I heard about some.

Actually LadyBird I know nothing about you as a teacher, I don't even know your name. I don't know what your students are like or what your teaching methods are like, so I don't have any opinion on you as a teacher, although I know you like nice pianos.

Thank you for your comments regarding me being able to sound good on a broken Belarus. That's nice of you to say so. I have actually worked very hard over the years on tone production and continue to do so. I didn't have good tone when I was a young pianist, I muscled through the notes. I know I didn't play too loud because my teacher really told me off for banging if it went in that direction, but I hardly had a prodigious colour palette. Even in the conservatoire, the fashion there was to play fast and loud which I could do with great ease, but I was very unhappy doing that. That's due to the way exam systems work though - you just have to muscle through the recitals and concertos until you get the degree, and sometimes there isn't much time to stop and think about what you're doing!

You might find it surprising but I taught beginner to Grade 8 for 14 years in various schools, and the pupils muscled through with all sorts of rubbish pianos in their homes, so yes I'm a performer, and I'm a teacher. Having a good piano makes a difference to a student's development. Having a B1 would be better than sticking with the Clavinova CLP103 or having no piano, but obviously it wouldn't be as good as having a taller, more professional piano.

As a performer I've given concerts on pianos that are probably not much better than the broken Belarus.... I've performed on some real junkers. I've played in some places where they needed hymn books to hold up the pedal lyre, and I've played in some places where the piano has been fundamentally beautiful (relatively new Steinway D in one case) but ruined by a rubbish technician.

Regarding the P-series, actually a friend of mine who is a piano teacher in Scotland sold his grand piano because he wanted more space at home, and he bought a Yamaha P121 and a Clavinova CLP645, and he's very happy with the choice he made. He teaches up to diploma level, but most of his teaching is done in school music rooms rather than on his own piano.

I also agree that the best piano to learn on is one that will give an accurate depiction of your playing, one that is responsive enough to do put out exactly what you're putting into it, and the taller, more expensive uprights, are better at that than a Yamaha B1.

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Hi Joe ,

Thank you for trying to understand a rather complicated person like myself !
I have just realised from your post P121 .I have only ever seen a 44"inch P series piano . I do not think a P121 is in Brand Profiles, so I did not realise that the P121 was available. So yes that would be about 47" which to me now seems possible, and an attractive option.I guess the B series I tried I found really unattractive. I cannot remember all the details. Actually I think
it was about 3years ago .Knowing the dealer better it is possible that the pianos were not really tuned well or had any kind of prep work. Actually I had only tried the B2 and the B3 ,
perhaps it was also because my old Kawai and the U1 really needed to be restored or replaced and I looking for an upright,
first buying a used piano (a disaster for me because I traded in
my U1 and they sold it ! ) which I was able to return to the store. The strings were constantly breaking in my aged Kawai grand and I sold for $3,000 CAD. So believe it or not I first considered a B2 or B3 .Eventually we bought a U1 .
I remember as a child practicing on a Church piano (was awful and I afraid to be in the Church hall which an old lady told me was haunted ).I must have been about 13 or 14.I was dutifully practicing for music exams and Eistedford and the usual music festivals .My parents hired a piano , that was awful too but at least I did not have go to the dark church Hall
I cannot even remember the name of the piano that was hired. My first teacher had a Challen and it was a sweeter sound .I longed for the Seiler which we never brought with to South Africa. I must have been about 16 when my parents (with a great sacrifice for them ) bought a new Kawai grand .I remember telling my father no ,I did not expect a grand, but he insisted. So that piano and my memories of a beautiful sounding Seiler were my first real musical experiences in this world that became meaningful .

I understand that there may be people who own a B1 , B2, or B3 and I am truly sorry if I offended them .It was not intentional. A good technician, yes can do absolute wonders and really make a B1 a different piano. I do agree with that.
Quite frankly I only ever wanted to teach up to Grade 9 RC and I was persuaded by the parents and the pupils to take them through grade 10 (Associated Board gr 8)
So in saying that I always would go and see the pupils piano
before I agreed. Fortunately I never had to say no .
So I suppose I have always tried to be an idealistic music teacher ,always trying to inspire. (even if I failed).
You because you are a performer Joe ,I think follow a philosophy based on realism. The instruments,the repertoire
the approach to teaching . Your pupils are very fortunate I think. My main teacher my inspiration, but she also taught me
well. Now I never practice anymore .......so If I am not careful...
Thank for your understanding ,I am sure I am becoming more
rigid in my views. Please take no offense.
And thank you for sharing that wonderful recital with us .It was unforgettable, it was so wonderful. That Rachmaninoff for me was something I had never heard before. It too stays in my memory.

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Originally Posted by Lady Bird
I have just realised from your post P121 .I have only ever seen a 44"inch P series piano . I do not think a P121 is in Brand Profiles, so I did not realise that the P121 was available. So yes that would be about 47" which to me now seems possible, and an attractive option.

This is exactly what I was getting at LadyBird...! The Yamaha P121 which is bigger than the B1 at 44". They are a good line of Yamaha pianos and far better than the B Series (in my own opinion). In the UK, Yamaha offer the P121 and the slightly shorter P116 both of which are 47" and 45" respectively.


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I agree with Joseph Fleetwood. If it were me I’d take gwing up on his generous offer while comparing the ease of playing exercises and testing materials on his big upright and a B1 that you were considering purchasing. Try his beautiful K800 for the required recording session and you’ll then know if a new B1 is or isn’t sufficient instrument for your continued piano studies.

I used my Mom’s little Story&Clark console for the first 10 years of piano and then had a small Baldwin console for another 14 years. So yes you could do it with a new small upright, but once you try out that big K800 I think you’ll immediately want something bigger with better control and dynamic range right at your fingertips. Best Wishes on your exam.


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