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The standard WNG aluminum capstan, part no. 06-5303, measures about 4.93 mm diameter at the threads. The V1 capstans, part no. 06-5330, measure about 4.84 mm. They are not the same size and therefore not interchangeable, despite what WNG may tell you.
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Last edited by Emery Wang; 08/29/20 06:29 PM.
Main battle axe: Yamaha N1 Living room axe: 1999 Petrof III Road axe: Yamaha P515 Office axe: 1927 Kurtzmann upright Neighbor's axe that used to be my axe: Kawai GL10 R.I.P. axe: Kawai MP11SE
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The capstans with the coarser thread count are intended to replace the old Steinway style grand capstan with the hex head and no holes. They fit the old threads holes perfectly.
In a seemingly infinite universe-infinite human creativity is-seemingly possible. According to NASA, 93% of the earth like planets possible in the known universe have yet to be formed. Contact: toneman1@me.com
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Good to know Ed. I think the ones you're referring to are the 06-5355s. Word to the wise: use a micrometer to measure your existing capstans, then order what fits best. WNG recommended the standard capstans for my old Kawai, but the smaller ones would have fit much better.
Main battle axe: Yamaha N1 Living room axe: 1999 Petrof III Road axe: Yamaha P515 Office axe: 1927 Kurtzmann upright Neighbor's axe that used to be my axe: Kawai GL10 R.I.P. axe: Kawai MP11SE
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Just buy the larger size. Then, when replacing the smaller caps you can enlarge the existing holes with the appropriate sized bit in a small hand drill.
Last edited by nhpianos; 08/30/20 06:25 AM.
Mark Dierauf, RPT NH Pianos Piano technician & rebuilder since 1978 www.nhpianos.com
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Does anyone have an extra set of 06-5303 WNG aluminum capstans? Mine have been on backorder at WNG for 2 months now, and I haven't been able to get an update on when they'll have more. If you do, please PM me. I'd be happy to take them off your hands.
Thanks!
Main battle axe: Yamaha N1 Living room axe: 1999 Petrof III Road axe: Yamaha P515 Office axe: 1927 Kurtzmann upright Neighbor's axe that used to be my axe: Kawai GL10 R.I.P. axe: Kawai MP11SE
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Does anyone have an extra set of 06-5303 WNG aluminum capstans? Mine have been on backorder at WNG for 2 months now, and I haven't been able to get an update on when they'll have more. If you do, please PM me. I'd be happy to take them off your hands.
Thanks! I’m just about to order wng capstans and whippens. I hope they get the capstans in soon. My client will not want to wait for two months!
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Be prepared for the wait for WNG parts, but let me say emphatically -- IT IS WORTH IT!! You'll never regret it -- as long as it's done properly.
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My 5mm WNG capstans finally arrived! But alas, 5mm at WNG is about 4.85mm in the real world, so capstans only get finger tight However, a little piece of rolled up kleenex screwed in alongside the capstan makes it nice and snug!
Main battle axe: Yamaha N1 Living room axe: 1999 Petrof III Road axe: Yamaha P515 Office axe: 1927 Kurtzmann upright Neighbor's axe that used to be my axe: Kawai GL10 R.I.P. axe: Kawai MP11SE
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I called WNG on Friday and they said everything is in stock now.
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My 5mm WNG capstans finally arrived! But alas, 5mm at WNG is about 4.85mm in the real world, so capstans only get finger tight However, a little piece of rolled up kleenex screwed in alongside the capstan makes it nice and snug! be careful no to change the axis, as small deviations in tilt in the capstan will show up as erratic action ratios. I find that wood threads will tighten well if I treat them with some water-thin CA and give them 5-10 minutes to set before threading the capstan in.
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Thanks Ed. You're right, the axes are changing with my method. As for water thin CA glue, do you just buy the thin stuff and apply it straight? Water thin super glue has such a short working time. Would you use a pipe cleaner to apply into the holes? Will the glue stay workable if you keep dipping the pipe cleaner into the glue?
Main battle axe: Yamaha N1 Living room axe: 1999 Petrof III Road axe: Yamaha P515 Office axe: 1927 Kurtzmann upright Neighbor's axe that used to be my axe: Kawai GL10 R.I.P. axe: Kawai MP11SE
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I don't understand why so many people are willing to dump CA glue into the wood of a piano. It is a non-reversible process, it is hard to control, and once it is set, it is set. Piano work is all about reversibility, non-destructive work, and extending the life of the material. CA glue isn't part of that approach. You're not going to find too many museum curators using CA glue to maintain and preserve historic instruments.
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I don't understand why so many people are willing to dump CA glue into the wood of a piano. It is a non-reversible process, it is hard to control, and once it is set, it is set. Piano work is all about reversibility, non-destructive work, and extending the life of the material. CA glue isn't part of that approach. You're not going to find too many museum curators using CA glue to maintain and preserve historic instruments. Perhaps this will help you understand: I. two drops of CA on the internal threads of a key is not what i call "dumping" 2. In this application, reversibility is not a desirable thing 3. If one cannot control a pipette, they should NOT use CA glue 4. Not all pianos are appropriately treated as instruments to curate, but, rather, to be used 5. The same procedure has been done with hot hide sizing for over a century, and that has not shown itself to be any superior. hope that helps you understand Regards,
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As for water thin CA glue, do you just buy the thin stuff and apply it straight? Water thin super glue has such a short working time. Would you use a pipe cleaner to apply into the holes? Will the glue stay workable if you keep dipping the pipe cleaner into the glue? I use the straight thin glue from Stewart-McDonald, a luthier supply company. With the included pipette, I would put perhaps two drops in the hole, letting it run down the threads. It is instantly absorbed into the wood, hardening and swelling the threads. Pipe cleaners will smoke from the exothermic reaction, and the heat will make a blob out of the end rather quickly. I just carefully treat with the pipette. It is also effective to place a drop or two on the threads in situ. It behaves much like treating a pin block with the pin in. Regards,
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2. In this application, reversibility is not a desirable thing Reversibility is always a desirable thing, unless it is the last fix the piano will ever go through. While CA will fix the problem now, who is to say that that is the last time that area of the piano will ever be repaired? Once the CA is in there, that is it. There is no reversing it in the future for other capstans or situations. The wood and CA would have to be drilled out and plugged. 4. Not all pianos are appropriately treated as instruments to curate, but, rather, to be used That is right. Junk pianos that are on their last leg are perfect candidates for using CA. Not all pianos are well-built, and not all pianos are worth doing things the right way. CA is a fast way to get the job done. It is not the "right" thing to do on a piano that has a good life ahead of it, unless you are 100% sure that no one will ever need to fix the issue again, for any reason. 5. The same procedure has been done with hot hide sizing for over a century, and that has not shown itself to be any superior. Right, hide glue has a long history of working and being reversible. Hide glue is the right way to approach sizing holes like this. Hide glue isn't "superior." But, it can be applied again in the future, and it is reversible to accommodate future changes. If you use CA glue now, you can't use hide glue later. That is the difference.
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Thanks guys, I understand both your positions. In this case piano411, I am simply trying to swell the threads a little so my slightly less than 5mm WNG capstans will stay tight. Were I to put the stock 5mm capstans back in, they would be tighter than before, but some wax should help them go in nonetheless. However, I can't imagine that someone will want to replace the WNGs with the heavier stock capstans in the future. If for some reason the WNG capstans wear out, my CA modification should not hamper a replacement WNG set, which would be the logical replacement.
Ed, thanks again for the advice. I've ordered some thin CA glue from Amazon and will give it a go this weekend.
I appreciate the feedback from both of you, it's always good to have alternative views.
Main battle axe: Yamaha N1 Living room axe: 1999 Petrof III Road axe: Yamaha P515 Office axe: 1927 Kurtzmann upright Neighbor's axe that used to be my axe: Kawai GL10 R.I.P. axe: Kawai MP11SE
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No worries. Just be aware that all capstans will loosen over time and use of the piano. A similar thing happens to screws and tuning pins. It is a natural process of changes in temperature, humidity, and use. When you use CA, you are sealing off the wood so that no future sizing is possible. When that CA sizing breaks down over time, or a particular hole didn't get enough CA, the wood doesn't swell up again in the future the same way because it is sealed off. It becomes very unpredictable. If for some reason that 1-2 drops isn't enough to swell up the wood to make the difference that you are dealing with, then what happens? I guess people just dump more in and hope that it lasts over the long term.
The point is that hide glue can be done over and over. CA is basically a one time thing. After it is set, it is set.
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Thanks piano411. So how would you apply hide glue? A few drops to coat the capstan threads? I imagine if you did that, and the glue came in contact with the wood, it would bond to the wood, but not so much to the metal capstan. It then creates a film of hide glue on top of the wood threads, thus decreasing the diameter of the hole and making the capstan tighter in the hole, but allowing the capstan to still turn. That sounds like pretty much what the CA glue would do. The hide glue, however, can be dissolved with water if need be. Is that the reason you'd use hide glue here?
Main battle axe: Yamaha N1 Living room axe: 1999 Petrof III Road axe: Yamaha P515 Office axe: 1927 Kurtzmann upright Neighbor's axe that used to be my axe: Kawai GL10 R.I.P. axe: Kawai MP11SE
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I use hide glue because it is the traditional glue to use with pianos. We are all taught how to work with it in the context of the piano. It has a very long history and proven track record. We know how it holds up over time, because we have a lot of examples of how it has survived the test of time. Not only is it easily reversible, but it will bind again to itself without any issues. It doesn’t stick to metal very well, and it doesn’t create a waterproof barrier. Because it doesn’t create a waterproof barrier, we can resize the hole again in the future when it becomes necessary.
CA works differently. CA is a relatively new thing. It is not, by any means, universally accepted for use in the piano. We honestly don’t know how it holds up over time in the piano. Not very many people use it in the piano, and not enough time has passed. CA is a great sealer that creates a waterproof barrier. Some people actually use CA as a wood finish. However, with CA, you are dealing with unfriendly chemical fumes, and if you are sanding it, in the form of dust. I don’t like to expose myself to unnecessary risks like that, if I don’t need to.
When you use CA glue, some of it will stick to the metal, essentially making it thicker, and the rest of the CA will wick into the wood - sealing it off making a waterproof barrier. CA neither expands nor contracts during curing, so it won’t really make the wood “swell” up. It does, however, readily stick to metal.
In contrast, the traditional method of using hide glue to size the hole will actually swell the hole (the wood). The hide glue is essentially used to stabilize the wood and hold it in the new position. The glue gets pulled into the structure without creating a waterproof barrier. It is not a film on the wood like the CA. This is why it can be done again many times. The process is to remove the capstans, add a few drops of hide glue to the hole, and once that has dried, reinstall the capstans. You can use different concentrations of hide glue based on the needs of your situation.
When you use CA glue, it creates a waterproof barrier that hide glue, or other glues, can no longer penetrate in the future, and so you loose the ability to “swell” the wood in the traditional sense in order to size the hole.
In summary, CA will probably work in your situation. How long will it last? I have no idea. It works differently than the traditional approach. With CA, you are basically adding material to the metal, and sealing off the wood. My message is simply that there are other options that are known to last the test of time, are less destructive, and doesn’t alter the functionality of the wood.
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Thanks. Do you thin the hide glue down a lot so it flows into the threads, rather than pool into the bottom of the hole?
Main battle axe: Yamaha N1 Living room axe: 1999 Petrof III Road axe: Yamaha P515 Office axe: 1927 Kurtzmann upright Neighbor's axe that used to be my axe: Kawai GL10 R.I.P. axe: Kawai MP11SE
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