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Re: Level of risk on old Ibach
charleslang #3036855 10/18/20 01:27 AM
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N.B. - After much thought, if I was to play a harpsichord tuned to let's say, Just Intonation, I would be lost; my hears are not accustomed to the sound.


~HW


"Respond intelligently, even to unintelligent treatment."
-Lao Tzu
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Re: Level of risk on old Ibach
charleslang #3036856 10/18/20 02:09 AM
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*my ears!


"Respond intelligently, even to unintelligent treatment."
-Lao Tzu
Re: Level of risk on old Ibach
charleslang #3036922 10/18/20 08:12 AM
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Originally Posted by charleslang
So, the question is, would this change the appeal of using any particular temperament? Because, I do think this keyboard will make composing on the black keys easier for a lot of people, and even starting piano education on a tonality like C# major may make more sense than starting people on C major.
There is no appeal for people to use a particular temperament to begin with. That sense has long since died away. I try to push the concept as much as I can, but people aren't interested. It's probably just what they are used to hearing. All mass marketed music is essentially 440 equal on digital instruments. It is hard to change how people think. They all just seem to want the same boring standard 440 equal temperament.

It looks like your project is coming together quickly. Wow, that was fast. I still don't understand what you are doing and what you intend to get out of it, but it is good to see you are moving right along. I'm interested in seeing how it works.


piano tuner
Re: Level of risk on old Ibach
piano411 #3036958 10/18/20 10:53 AM
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Originally Posted by piano411
There is no appeal for people to use a particular temperament to begin with. That sense has long since died away. I try to push the concept as much as I can, but people aren't interested. It's probably just what they are used to hearing. All mass marketed music is essentially 440 equal on digital instruments. It is hard to change how people think. They all just seem to want the same boring standard 440 equal temperament.

It looks like your project is coming together quickly. Wow, that was fast. I still don't understand what you are doing and what you intend to get out of it, but it is good to see you are moving right along. I'm interested in seeing how it works.

I feel like 440 is like hammer grooves in my brain, and that’s a reason I choose 436. I also associate 440 with a certain “high” that had me sort of hypnotized in pop culture and 436 is like a relaxation of that but without feeling so flat as to be sad.

I think preference for a temperament requires a frame of mind that is pretty advanced in terms of ear training, or, it’s a kind of appreciation that’s like enjoying wind chimes, where the focus isn’t on the melody but is on this precision of harmony. There is so much complexity in music that most people are preoccupied with getting their heads around that part of it first.

What I’m trying to do with my invention is make it easier for ordinary people to understand the way a modern-day composer or pianist with basic competence sees the keyboard. Much of my own life has been spent in agony with a kind of musical inferiority complex, observing musically competent people having the time of their life enjoying keyboards while I was baffled and exasperated but I had some sort of in-built hunch that it could all be made more clear and comprehensible to people. As if musicians are all illusionists but no one is willing to share the secrets.

For a while I have anticipated that there might be two general kinds of reaction to the invention. From some advanced musicians, but also from some non-musicians who already see the piano chromatically, the reaction is likely to be that the invention seems totally unnecessary and makes only a trivial and unimportant change to the action. But from others who have no systematic understanding of music that accounts for the black keys functioning in roles just like white keys, the reaction might be almost like a miracle has been performed.

Here is the action of the invention. In the second video there is an added front rail and a capstan to create even more smooth movement. I put graphite on the dowel and can adjust the capstan precisely to prevent friction lower down in the main rail. There will also be a rail on the other side and capstans below the rail.




Last edited by charleslang; 10/18/20 10:55 AM.

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Tuesdays 5-8 at Vince's West Sacramento, California
Re: Level of risk on old Ibach
charleslang #3036975 10/18/20 12:03 PM
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Originally Posted by charleslang
Actually another question would be: was it at all common in American pianos to have the keys spacing of this Ibach, which is almost exactly 46.5 inches for the 85 keys (A to A).


My 1895 New England piano @ 46.4" ✔



~HW


"Respond intelligently, even to unintelligent treatment."
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Re: Level of risk on old Ibach
charleslang #3036983 10/18/20 12:12 PM
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Originally Posted by charleslang
I also associate 440 with a certain “high” that had me sort of hypnotized in pop culture and 436 is like a relaxation of that but without feeling so flat as to be sad.
I agree wholeheartedly, especially with the first part. I encourage people to try other pitch levels. I don't think there is anything that magically happens at 432, but there is something mind-numbing happening at 440. I kept my home pianos at 435 for a few years, now I am trying 432 for a few years. I tried 445 for a while. I would not describe that higher one as mind-numbing or hypothesizing at all, but 440 sure is.

Also, with the temperaments, I've spoken with a number of pianists that have tried different temperaments and hated the experience. They describe the experience as just a poorly tuned piano. They don't talk about color in a good way at all. I think that has to do with how the piano is tuned. Instead of tuning the whole piano and how it resonates, the tuners choke the piano down by eliminating 1/3 of the strings, plus having all of the dampers down on the strings. If tuners would learn to get the whole piano to sing, I think the different temperaments would be acceptable to more people.

I think I see what you are doing with the keyboard. Good luck!


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Re: Level of risk on old Ibach
Herr Weiss #3036989 10/18/20 12:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Herr Weiss
My 1895 New England piano @ 46.4" ✔



~HW

Thanks!
I’m glad to hear of another piano in the range around 46.5”.

Last edited by charleslang; 10/18/20 12:24 PM.

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Tuesdays 5-8 at Vince's West Sacramento, California
Re: Level of risk on old Ibach
piano411 #3036996 10/18/20 12:44 PM
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Originally Posted by piano411
Also, with the temperaments, I've spoken with a number of pianists that have tried different temperaments and hated the experience. They describe the experience as just a poorly tuned piano. They don't talk about color in a good way at all.

My reading of that situation is that they’re probably just trained as 12-tonality pianists and so they’re going to be thinking in the equal temperament paradigm. Actually I think their reaction sounds rude, or as if there’s some misunderstanding going on. The different temperaments favor certain ways of composing, in certain keys.


Semi-pro pianist
Tuesdays 5-8 at Vince's West Sacramento, California
Re: Level of risk on old Ibach
charleslang #3037008 10/18/20 01:18 PM
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Quote
Thanks!
I’m glad to hear of another piano in the range around 46.5”.

Just measured my 1930s Weissbrod 85 notes: 46 9/16"

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