2017 was our 20th year online!

Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 3 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Shop our online store for music lovers
SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Wessell Nickel & Gross
PianoForAll
(ad)
Best of Piano Buyer
 Best of Piano Buyer
(ad)
Faust Harrison Pianos
Faust Harrison 100+ Steinway pianos
Who's Online Now
79 members (bwv872, 1957, Badger1966, anotherscott, Blague, 36251, 19 invisible), 493 guests, and 421 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Page 4 of 5 1 2 3 4 5
Re: Should 'Resale Potential' Be a Factor in Choosing a Piano?
WYTILTLIS #3036477 10/17/20 12:46 AM
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 6,147
6000 Post Club Member
Offline
6000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 6,147
A new piano that has had no or minimal prep simply means it will not be showing at its best and you will be on the hook for paying for that deferred maintenance over the course of the first couple of years, instead of the dealer. The piano will be less stable in the first year, for sure.

In my experience, the top roughly 20% of dealers might tune a new piano 4-5 times in its first year on the floor, touch up the regulation, and spot voice anything that's obviously troublesome; and they may be willing to do more than that if it means making a sale. These are also the dealers who tend to keep their pianos under covers when not in use, and prefer to operate by appointment.

The next tier of dealers do minimal prep, unless you've made an advance appointment and asked to see a specific piano. Then the piano might get an extra tuning before your visit and anything obvious attended to. It's in the case of these top two groups that my advice to call ahead before visiting makes the most sense.

The 3rd tier of dealers do minimal prep only, basically unpack the piano, throw a tuning on it, and only deal with the most obvious issues that would keep the piano from making sound. Pianos are kept open all the time, and are often dusty or exposed to direct sunlight and poor humidity conditions. Ironically, a worryingly significant portion of piano advertising videos on the internet by dealers (YouTube, etc.) seem to come from dealers who invest this little in the upkeep of their inventory.

I've heard new piano demonstration videos from what I'd describe as a 4th tier of dealers, but mostly these are in what might be considered developing parts of the world, and feature really cheap entry-level product that comes out of factories in rough shape. Have not run into this in the US anytime in the last decade.


Pianist, teacher, apprentice technician, internet addict.
Piano Review Editor - Acoustic and Digital Piano Buyer
Re: Should 'Resale Potential' Be a Factor in Choosing a Piano?
terminaldegree #3036527 10/17/20 08:32 AM
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 3,733
j&j Offline
3000 Post Club Member
Offline
3000 Post Club Member
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 3,733
Originally Posted by terminaldegree
A new piano that has had no or minimal prep simply means it will not be showing at its best and you will be on the hook for paying for that deferred maintenance over the course of the first couple of years, instead of the dealer. The piano will be less stable in the first year, for sure.

In my experience, the top roughly 20% of dealers might tune a new piano 4-5 times in its first year on the floor, touch up the regulation, and spot voice anything that's obviously troublesome; and they may be willing to do more than that if it means making a sale. These are also the dealers who tend to keep their pianos under covers when not in use, and prefer to operate by appointment.

The next tier of dealers do minimal prep, unless you've made an advance appointment and asked to see a specific piano. Then the piano might get an extra tuning before your visit and anything obvious attended to. It's in the case of these top two groups that my advice to call ahead before visiting makes the most sense.

The 3rd tier of dealers do minimal prep only, basically unpack the piano, throw a tuning on it, and only deal with the most obvious issues that would keep the piano from making sound. Pianos are kept open all the time, and are often dusty or exposed to direct sunlight and poor humidity conditions. Ironically, a worryingly significant portion of piano advertising videos on the internet by dealers (YouTube, etc.) seem to come from dealers who invest this little in the upkeep of their inventory.

I've heard new piano demonstration videos from what I'd describe as a 4th tier of dealers, but mostly these are in what might be considered developing parts of the world, and feature really cheap entry-level product that comes out of factories in rough shape. Have not run into this in the US anytime in the last decade.

Terminaldegree- nice summary! Apparently I’ve been rather fortunate enough to be spoiled dealing with “top dealers” in the past. I guess I will count my blessings and will be passing on recommendations to any and all people who I know are piano shopping.


J & J
Estonia L190 Hidden Beauty
Casio Privia PX-330
I don’t play well but I play far better than I sing.
[Linked Image]
Re: Should 'Resale Potential' Be a Factor in Choosing a Piano?
WYTILTLIS #3036807 10/17/20 09:05 PM
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 1,254
S
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
S
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 1,254
There is also the dealer experience of whether they will advertise the true price or not, and whether they will use all sorts of pressure tactics to make it seem like you will spend the rest of your life in piano purgatory if you don't buy the piano in front of you immediately.


Login name is a tribute to Jan Pieterszoon Sweelinck.
Re: Should 'Resale Potential' Be a Factor in Choosing a Piano?
WYTILTLIS #3036825 10/17/20 11:05 PM
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,965
J
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
J
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,965
Originally Posted by WYTILTLIS
Wow, thanks, everyone. I've read every post and gotten some great guidance and food for thought. In my case, living in such a small city, I feel like I'm at a disadvantage for both resale value and for "ease of sale", so it's making me a little hesitant to pull the trigger on choosing a piano.

I've had a chance to try several more pianos now (I'm on an extended business trip, go figure, after just having complained on this forum about how hard it was for me to get away from work to visit a larger centre to try other pianos). I have another question for you all:

Would limited maintenance on a new piano put you off from buying it? How about new pianos that have sitting around for a while?

There is a Kawai GX2 that I really like, only it's been sitting around for 3 years in the showroom with minimal prep (tuning once/year, nothing else done to it). There is also a Bosendorfer 214 that's been sitting around for 9 years! -- and while it's had more done to it than the GX2, there are some issues which the dealer has said he's willing to correct.

Ultimately, there are 4 pianos that I really enjoy. I like each of them for different reasons. Can you tell that I'm struggling to make a decision?!
You cover a wide range of pianos in terms of quality, size, and price. Only you can answer what is best for you. Are you a beginner pianist, intermediate, or advanced amateur? What’s your budget? All the pianos you mention would be great pianos to own depending upon your situation and what you want. None of them are junk assuming they were cared for. Don’t over think the resale value thing unless you are not sure that playing or owning a piano is for you. If you are sure it is for you or it is already in your life then just choose the one that sounds and plays best to you. Personally I would be intrigued by the hand built models such as the Bosendorfer or Mason and Hamlin if your budget can easily accommodate those pianos. Those are some of the finest built so you can’t go wrong with those. They are special pianos individually built by artisans. The factory built models are also great buys for serious musicians and may be a good choice if budget is somewhat constrained or if you are just getting into the art of playing the piano but don’t want to invest too much money in the early stages. It’s up to you. I started with a beautiful factory model and then traded up to a hand built model many years later. I loved them both and they both gave me years of joy in equal measure. It’s nice to have options.

Also don’t worry about the maintenance thing. Have an independent tech check out your piano before purchase if you have concerns and understand their after purchase service policy and warranties.

Last edited by Jethro; 10/17/20 11:12 PM.

Working on:

Bach/Busoni Chaconne in D minor BWV 1004
Preludio: Bach/Rachmaninoff E Major Sonata for Violin
Chopin: G Minor Ballade


Shigeru Kawai SK2
Kawai VPC-1
Re: Should 'Resale Potential' Be a Factor in Choosing a Piano?
WYTILTLIS #3036832 10/17/20 11:46 PM
Joined: May 2020
Posts: 19
W
Junior Member
OP Offline
Junior Member
W
Joined: May 2020
Posts: 19
Thanks, so much great information in this forum. It helps to alleviate some of the stress and anxiety around this whole process. grin

I'm fairly advanced (although, after a decades-long hiatus while I concentrated on career, I could use a lot more practice). I initially started with a budget of $15k while I looked at used pianos. I couldn't find one I liked, so I grudgingly increased the budget to $25k, then $35k, now I just say it's "flexible", depending on the piano. eek

The M&H ended up not being to my taste, but today I played a W. Hoffman that I instantly loved. The Bechstein next to it was pretty spectacular, too. I should be traveling again in a couple of weeks time, so I'll have a chance to play them again. I think I am finally okay with buying the piano I love best and not worry about resale.

Re: Should 'Resale Potential' Be a Factor in Choosing a Piano?
WYTILTLIS #3036834 10/17/20 11:58 PM
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,965
J
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
J
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,965
Originally Posted by WYTILTLIS
Thanks, so much great information in this forum. It helps to alleviate some of the stress and anxiety around this whole process. grin

I'm fairly advanced (although, after a decades-long hiatus while I concentrated on career, I could use a lot more practice). I initially started with a budget of $15k while I looked at used pianos. I couldn't find one I liked, so I grudgingly increased the budget to $25k, then $35k, now I just say it's "flexible", depending on the piano. eek

The M&H ended up not being to my taste, but today I played a W. Hoffman that I instantly loved. The Bechstein next to it was pretty spectacular, too. I should be traveling again in a couple of weeks time, so I'll have a chance to play them again. I think I am finally okay with buying the piano I love best and not worry about resale.
Yes in your case you are looking at quality built pianos. You’re not trying to save a buck by buying junk. All of those pianos should have pretty good resale value. It’s the craigslist specials, the heavily discounted used ‘as is’ specials that typically have poor resale values and I’m sure there are some stencil brands some here may suggest you avoid. Some brands do have better resale values ie. you can recoup closer to what you paid for it in a resale than others, but I’m not suggesting you buy only a piano looking only for the pianos with the highest resale value. I don’t know if Yamaha/Kawai have the highest resale value but I’m inclined to think they are up there only because of their reputation for being solid pianos. Again, I only see good resale value as one measure of quality but their relative differences could be due to other reasons such as name recognition.


Working on:

Bach/Busoni Chaconne in D minor BWV 1004
Preludio: Bach/Rachmaninoff E Major Sonata for Violin
Chopin: G Minor Ballade


Shigeru Kawai SK2
Kawai VPC-1
Re: Should 'Resale Potential' Be a Factor in Choosing a Piano?
WYTILTLIS #3036838 10/18/20 12:30 AM
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 1,108
L
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
L
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 1,108
My advice is do not use resale value as a metric for piano purchase.

Unless you get extremely lucky be prepared to give up lots of monies if you want a different piano.


When you play, never mind who listens to you. R.Schumann.

Casio GP-400
Schimmel SP-182T "I wish I had the room to keep you around"
August Forster 215
Re: Should 'Resale Potential' Be a Factor in Choosing a Piano?
Jethro #3036910 10/18/20 08:30 AM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 28,128
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 28,128
Originally Posted by Jethro
Personally I would be intrigued by the hand built models such as the Bosendorfer or Mason and Hamlin if your budget can easily accommodate those pianos. Those are some of the finest built so you can’t go wrong with those. They are special pianos individually built by artisans. The factory built models are also great buys for serious musicians and may be a good choice if budget is somewhat constrained or if you are just getting into the art of playing the piano but don’t want to invest too much money in the early stages. It’s up to you. I started with a beautiful factory model and then traded up to a hand built model many years later. I loved them both and they both gave me years of joy in equal measure. It’s nice to have options.
If I had $1 for every time I saw "hand built" in an ad or post, I could buy any piano I wanted!

To the best of my knowledge no pianos are hand built today and many parts of piano manufacture are better, sometimes far better, accomplished by computer controlled machines. What is true is that some parts of piano making can be better accomplished by hand and that some makers spend more time on procedures that must be or can better be done by hand. I bet the places where Boesendorfer and Mason & Hamlin pianos are made are called factories. "Hand built" is marketing tool that I think many piano buyers misunderstand.

Re: Should 'Resale Potential' Be a Factor in Choosing a Piano?
WYTILTLIS #3036921 10/18/20 09:07 AM
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 3,733
j&j Offline
3000 Post Club Member
Offline
3000 Post Club Member
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 3,733
Ok. How about we change the expression from “handmade” to something like “involves extensive craftsmanship in the voicing, regulation and finish work for each piano made”.

In the videos and brochures, advertising of course, they show human beings doing all the intricate work on stringing, carefully needling hammers and hand fitting and regulating keyboards. There’s a lot more human craft hours involved in making a Mason & Hamlin than done by Pearl River.

On grand pianos, the finish work of Steinway, Mason&Hamlin, Sauter, Bechstein and even Estonia stands out so that even a beginner can see and hopefully hear the difference.


J & J
Estonia L190 Hidden Beauty
Casio Privia PX-330
I don’t play well but I play far better than I sing.
[Linked Image]
Re: Should 'Resale Potential' Be a Factor in Choosing a Piano?
j&j #3036959 10/18/20 11:53 AM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 28,128
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 28,128
Originally Posted by j&j
Ok. How about we change the expression from “handmade” to something like “involves extensive craftsmanship in the voicing, regulation and finish work for each piano made”.

On grand pianos, the finish work of Steinway, Mason&Hamlin, Sauter, Bechstein and even Estonia stands out so that even a beginner can see and hopefully hear the difference.
I think a fair number of pianists can see differences in finishes to some extent but many cannot tell much about voicing and regulation. With some experience they can probably tell if they like a piano's touch/tone but that is not the same as knowing if the piano is well regulated and voiced. For example, M&H had much heavier actions until around 15 years ago, so someone might easily assume they were not well regulated when that was just the nature of their action at that time.

I do think a huge percentage of people have a big misunderstanding about the term "handmade" which is why so many manufacturers emphasize it in their ads. Many people assume "handmade" is better when machine made can be better for parts of piano manufacturing. I'm quite sure the places where M&H and Steinway are made are called their factories.

I assume your suggested replacement phrase was in jest.

Re: Should 'Resale Potential' Be a Factor in Choosing a Piano?
WYTILTLIS #3036971 10/18/20 12:52 PM
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 6,939
Silver Subscriber
6000 Post Club Member
Offline
Silver Subscriber
6000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 6,939
I don’t believe that beginning pianists will be on the market for an expensive piano, nor do I think the majority of intermediate pianists will be familiar with any brands other than Steinway , Yamaha and Kawai

Those who haunt these forums aren’t typical of pianists in the wild.
This doesn’t mean we shouldn’t buy what we love and can afford. It just may not sell quickly or for the price we want. As a personal test, we should ask ourselves to list all the brands we knew before joining PW.


"Music, rich, full of feeling, not soulless, is like a crystal on which the sun falls and brings forth from it a whole rainbow" - F. Chopin
"I never dreamt with my own two hands I could touch the sky" - Sappho

It's ok to be a Work In Progress
Re: Should 'Resale Potential' Be a Factor in Choosing a Piano?
pianoloverus #3037050 10/18/20 03:49 PM
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,965
J
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
J
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,965
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Originally Posted by Jethro
Personally I would be intrigued by the hand built models such as the Bosendorfer or Mason and Hamlin if your budget can easily accommodate those pianos. Those are some of the finest built so you can’t go wrong with those. They are special pianos individually built by artisans. The factory built models are also great buys for serious musicians and may be a good choice if budget is somewhat constrained or if you are just getting into the art of playing the piano but don’t want to invest too much money in the early stages. It’s up to you. I started with a beautiful factory model and then traded up to a hand built model many years later. I loved them both and they both gave me years of joy in equal measure. It’s nice to have options.
If I had $1 for every time I saw "hand built" in an ad or post, I could buy any piano I wanted!

To the best of my knowledge no pianos are hand built today and many parts of piano manufacture are better, sometimes far better, accomplished by computer controlled machines. What is true is that some parts of piano making can be better accomplished by hand and that some makers spend more time on procedures that must be or can better be done by hand. I bet the places where Boesendorfer and Mason & Hamlin pianos are made are called factories. "Hand built" is marketing tool that I think many piano buyers misunderstand.
Wait, are you telling me these pianos aren’t fully hand made? No bloomeries smelting iron with craftsmen sweating over huge bellows and clanking anvils? What the heck are we paying for?


Working on:

Bach/Busoni Chaconne in D minor BWV 1004
Preludio: Bach/Rachmaninoff E Major Sonata for Violin
Chopin: G Minor Ballade


Shigeru Kawai SK2
Kawai VPC-1
Re: Should 'Resale Potential' Be a Factor in Choosing a Piano?
Jethro #3037064 10/18/20 04:35 PM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 28,128
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 28,128
Originally Posted by Jethro
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
If I had $1 for every time I saw "hand built" in an ad or post, I could buy any piano I wanted!

To the best of my knowledge no pianos are hand built today and many parts of piano manufacture are better, sometimes far better, accomplished by computer controlled machines. What is true is that some parts of piano making can be better accomplished by hand and that some makers spend more time on procedures that must be or can better be done by hand. I bet the places where Boesendorfer and Mason & Hamlin pianos are made are called factories. "Hand built" is marketing tool that I think many piano buyers misunderstand.
Wait, are you telling me these pianos aren’t fully hand made? No bloomeries smelting iron with craftsmen sweating over huge bellows and clanking anvils? What the heck are we paying for?
I think many people, possibly including you, don't have much idea what "handmade" means for pianos and the misconception that it is, superior to machine made.

Re: Should 'Resale Potential' Be a Factor in Choosing a Piano?
pianoloverus #3037165 10/18/20 09:13 PM
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 3,733
j&j Offline
3000 Post Club Member
Offline
3000 Post Club Member
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 3,733
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Originally Posted by j&j
Ok. How about we change the expression from “handmade” to something like “involves extensive craftsmanship in the voicing, regulation and finish work for each piano made”.

On grand pianos, the finish work of Steinway, Mason&Hamlin, Sauter, Bechstein and even Estonia stands out so that even a beginner can see and hopefully hear the difference.
I think a fair number of pianists can see differences in finishes to some extent but many cannot tell much about voicing and regulation. With some experience they can probably tell if they like a piano's touch/tone but that is not the same as knowing if the piano is well regulated and voiced. For example, M&H had much heavier actions until around 15 years ago, so someone might easily assume they were not well regulated when that was just the nature of their action at that time.

I do think a huge percentage of people have a big misunderstanding about the term "handmade" which is why so many manufacturers emphasize it in their ads. Many people assume "handmade" is better when machine made can be better for parts of piano manufacturing. I'm quite sure the places where M&H and Steinway are made are called their factories.

I assume your suggested replacement phrase was in jest.

Well...somewhat. I just think that a Bosendorfer grand requires significantly more human hand and tool work than a grand made by Pearl River.


J & J
Estonia L190 Hidden Beauty
Casio Privia PX-330
I don’t play well but I play far better than I sing.
[Linked Image]
Re: Should 'Resale Potential' Be a Factor in Choosing a Piano?
WYTILTLIS #3037189 10/19/20 12:46 AM
Joined: Aug 2018
Posts: 5,573
L
5000 Post Club Member
Online Content
5000 Post Club Member
L
Joined: Aug 2018
Posts: 5,573
Yes of course some have more work done by hand than others and we are not just talking about a Bosendorfer. People have been to factories and seen the work done by hand .I have heard at least two members mention work done by hand in manufactures in Europe, so I would think the same would be in the US.
Of course machinery is used as well .Estonias pianos I am sure really have quite a great deal of hand work done in production.

Last edited by Lady Bird; 10/19/20 12:52 AM. Reason: spelling
Re: Should 'Resale Potential' Be a Factor in Choosing a Piano?
WYTILTLIS #3037231 10/19/20 05:47 AM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 28,128
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 28,128
It's not complicated:

1. No pianos are handmade or handbuilt in the normal meaning of that word.
2. All pianos have some work done by hand. More exclusive pianos generally having more time spent time spent by human hands.
3 In some areas of piano making, machines are superior to humans.

Re: Should 'Resale Potential' Be a Factor in Choosing a Piano?
j&j #3037232 10/19/20 05:50 AM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 28,128
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 28,128
Originally Posted by j&j
I just think that a Bosendorfer grand requires significantly more human hand and tool work than a grand made by Pearl River.
Of course, no one has said anything to the contrary on this thread.

Re: Should 'Resale Potential' Be a Factor in Choosing a Piano?
pianoloverus #3037267 10/19/20 09:07 AM
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 3,733
j&j Offline
3000 Post Club Member
Offline
3000 Post Club Member
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 3,733
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Originally Posted by j&j
I just think that a Bosendorfer grand requires significantly more human hand and tool work than a grand made by Pearl River.
Of course, no one has said anything to the contrary on this thread.

LadyBird - yes I mentioned Sauter and Estonia earlier so I just used Bosendorfer because I know they’re producing very few finished pianos each year and are one of the highest priced here in the US, and I know Pearl River produces more pianos every year than any other piano factory.

Also, when I view a video about Bosendorfer or even Estonia I see pictures of skilled craftspeople working on individual pianos as opposed to the typical production floor with massive machines moving piano parts through piano paint areas.

Higher tiered pianos take significantly more time to make and finish than does a “mass produced” piano. That’s what we’re paying for.

So yes, pianoloverus, we are in agreement.

Last edited by j&j; 10/19/20 09:09 AM.

J & J
Estonia L190 Hidden Beauty
Casio Privia PX-330
I don’t play well but I play far better than I sing.
[Linked Image]
Re: Should 'Resale Potential' Be a Factor in Choosing a Piano?
pianoloverus #3037297 10/19/20 10:14 AM
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,965
J
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
J
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,965
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
It's not complicated:

1. No pianos are handmade or handbuilt in the normal meaning of that word.
2. All pianos have some work done by hand. More exclusive pianos generally having more time spent time spent by human hands.
3 In some areas of piano making, machines are superior to humans.
Yes and no reason complicate it more than that unless we are here just to argue semantics for argument sake. I see process of building a piano as much an art as a science. Where you want consistency such as with metallurgy- the cast iron plate, the strings, the agraffes, the pins- of course you rely on machines. But when you are dealing with organic material such as wood there are inconsistencies that machines have a difficult time dealing with and where the human touch is beneficial and has its advantages. The idea is to have wood sound its "best" and "best" here is subjective and where the art of building a piano comes into play. So when the artisan is using his sense of touch and hearing to create a soundboard that the artisan thinks will amplify sound the "best" it's subjective and one gained from years of experience. A machine can cut wood with laser perfection but it can't anticipate what this particular piece will sound like. This is what we pay for. Even where consistency is possible sometimes it is not desirable. Take the copper windings around the bass strings. Machines can wind copper precisely every time but with the end result of the bass string sounding too perfect, too sterile. So manufacturers of high end pianos often have artisans hand wind copper around the strings to add that human inconsistency to the equation resulting in an instrument having it's own personality, it's own humanness. I see the use of machines as nothing more than an extension of the idea of using a "tool" to help us do our work. We use tools in making instruments where it just makes sense and offers an advantage but if the desire to build a work of art we need the human element to achieve this.

Last edited by Jethro; 10/19/20 10:23 AM.

Working on:

Bach/Busoni Chaconne in D minor BWV 1004
Preludio: Bach/Rachmaninoff E Major Sonata for Violin
Chopin: G Minor Ballade


Shigeru Kawai SK2
Kawai VPC-1
Re: Should 'Resale Potential' Be a Factor in Choosing a Piano?
Jethro #3037379 10/19/20 01:26 PM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 28,128
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 28,128
Originally Posted by Jethro
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
It's not complicated:

1. No pianos are handmade or handbuilt in the normal meaning of that word.
2. All pianos have some work done by hand. More exclusive pianos generally having more time spent time spent by human hands.
3 In some areas of piano making, machines are superior to humans.
Yes and no reason complicate it more than that unless we are here just to argue semantics for argument sake. I see process of building a piano as much an art as a science. Where you want consistency such as with metallurgy- the cast iron plate, the strings, the agraffes, the pins- of course you rely on machines. But when you are dealing with organic material such as wood there are inconsistencies that machines have a difficult time dealing with and where the human touch is beneficial and has its advantages. The idea is to have wood sound its "best" and "best" here is subjective and where the art of building a piano comes into play. So when the artisan is using his sense of touch and hearing to create a soundboard that the artisan thinks will amplify sound the "best" it's subjective and one gained from years of experience. A machine can cut wood with laser perfection but it can't anticipate what this particular piece will sound like. This is what we pay for. Even where consistency is possible sometimes it is not desirable. Take the copper windings around the bass strings. Machines can wind copper precisely every time but with the end result of the bass string sounding too perfect, too sterile. So manufacturers of high end pianos often have artisans hand wind copper around the strings to add that human inconsistency to the equation resulting in an instrument having it's own personality, it's own humanness. I see the use of machines as nothing more than an extension of the idea of using a "tool" to help us do our work. We use tools in making instruments where it just makes sense and offers an advantage but if the desire to build a work of art we need the human element to achieve this.
You spend most of the post giving examples where you think human hands are better but include very little about where machines are better. I don't think everyone would agree with you about a bass string sounding "too perfect". You said "no reason complicate it more than that unless we are here just to argue semantics for argument sake" and then wrote a very lengthy paragraph doing just that.

Page 4 of 5 1 2 3 4 5

Moderated by  Ken Knapp, Piano World 

Link Copied to Clipboard
(ad)
Pianoteq
PianoTeq Karsten Collection
(ad)
PianoDisc

PianoDisc
(ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad)
Mason & Hamlin Pianos
What's Hot!!
News from the Piano World
Our October 2020 Free Piano Newsletter is Here!
---------------------
3,000,000+!
------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums RULES & HELP
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Selling Kawai ES110
by Cutec - 10/21/20 12:26 PM
Teaching a four-year-old, online!
by Gal Friday - 10/21/20 11:43 AM
Korg NH detail
by Myon - 10/21/20 11:40 AM
Old vs new
by ZootHornRollo - 10/21/20 10:18 AM
New DP Buyer Needs Help :-)
by Badger1966 - 10/21/20 09:12 AM
Download Sheet Music
Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads
Forum Statistics
Forums41
Topics202,338
Posts3,015,738
Members98,970
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Please Support Our Advertisers


Faust Harrison 100+ Steinways

Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver

 Best of Piano Buyer

PianoTeq Bechstein
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads



 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter |


copyright 1997 - 2020 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.4