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Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On
David B #3036386 10/16/20 04:11 PM
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Hi

New N1X happy owner here ! I followed this thread since the earlier beginning and it has been very useful for me to guide my choice, so thanks all for your feedback and your shares (excuse my poor english, I didn't write in english for ages).

This piano is a joy to play, here is a video of my piano teacher, Jean-Marie, witch enjoyed it too, thanks to him for his interpretation of Skyfall smile

The video quality isn't very good and don't do justice to the things, but be sure we had a good time !


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Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On
David B #3036720 10/17/20 03:15 PM
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Spanishbudda the other piano samples has some annoying keys too. They will send a electronic technician to see if there is something he can do.

As per regulation, yes, as it is a piano mechanism, it needs regulation. Actually, the first technician that was sent to me to fix a couple issues did a regulation and found out some screws weren't tight enough. I'll see if he can do something about the the repetition jack to make it faster.

He told me it will need a service every 3 to 5 years minimum, and he said is a rather fat bill for that so yeah, one saves on the tuning costs but cannot scape the eventual needed regulation.

Last edited by Alexander Acosta; 10/17/20 03:16 PM.
Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On
Alexander Acosta #3036729 10/17/20 03:36 PM
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Routine regulation doesn't sound right to me. And close to $1k reach time? Major red flag here.

I think most people owning acoustic paianos NEVER have the action regulated, and this is over 10-20+ years of ownership.

I fear someone is trying to set up recurring revenue stream by hawking an unneeded service...


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Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On
Gombessa #3036734 10/17/20 03:45 PM
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I think you've put it rather mildly, eh?
Originally Posted by Gombessa
I fear someone is trying to set up recurring revenue stream by hawking an unneeded service...
It's quite possible that a piano would need more frequent regulation ... if heavily used.
But a home piano with modest use could easily go for a decade without such need.
I can't see a need for service at three to five years.


Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On
Gombessa #3036765 10/17/20 05:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Gombessa
Routine regulation doesn't sound right to me. And close to $1k reach time? Major red flag here.

I think most people owning acoustic paianos NEVER have the action regulated, and this is over 10-20+ years of ownership.

I fear someone is trying to set up recurring revenue stream by hawking an unneeded service...

It is quite possible that somebody is trying to set up a revenue stream as you say. A full grand regulation costs more than 1k$, but the most expensive part of the regulation is the dampers, which the N1X does not have, so the price do seem a little too steep as you say. On the other hand, it could even be that in that market the price is fair. And remember 900 CA$ are 675 US$ which sounds like a more reasonable price for a full grand regulation without dampers.

That said, regulation is periodically needed if you want the instrument in top notch conditions, for both a grand as well as these hybrids (or the upright, FWIW). The fact that most people don't do it for 20+ years, does not mean a thing. Pianos continue to make piano-like sound well after they have become a large piece of trash, so people do get sloppy. I put my former self in that category, but now as I progress in my ability I recognize some unevenness in my piano's action, which I should have gotten corrected long ago.... but since I did not realize back then, I didn't. You can argue "if you can't realize, then it does not matter to you", and that is true if you are stable in your technique. But that's not appropriate if you are trying to improve in your piano playing ability, because you will have a hard time doing some things, and you will not know who is to blame: you, your teacher or your the instrument.

So in conclusion, I second your skepticism, but not your dismissal. Perhaps Alexander could hire (or even just contact) an independent piano technician and ask for a quote of a grand action regulation without the dampers just to have a reference point.

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On
Del Vento #3036769 10/17/20 05:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Del Vento
So in conclusion, I second your skepticism, but not your dismissal.

If it needs regulation, it needs regulation, I don't think I've said otherwise. But are you saying you believe, or even find in the same ballpark, what OP was told, that a hybrid will regularly need regulation this frequently?

Quote
He told me it will need a service every 3 to 5 years minimum.

Personally, I don't even find it worth getting an appraisal or second opinion on; I think it can be safely disregarded as bad advice (just my onion, as Pete14 would say). If the piano in the future needs regulation at whatever point, get the regulation done.


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Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On
Gombessa #3036804 10/17/20 07:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Gombessa
Originally Posted by Del Vento
So in conclusion, I second your skepticism, but not your dismissal.

If it needs regulation, it needs regulation, I don't think I've said otherwise. But are you saying you believe, or even find in the same ballpark, what OP was told, that a hybrid will regularly need regulation this frequently?

No, for the use that most people give to these instruments (not "intense" repertoire and at most 1h per day).
But perhaps, if it has been used more than that. I have no idea if the Alexander's piano does.

Originally Posted by Gombessa
Quote
He told me it will need a service every 3 to 5 years minimum.

Personally, I don't even find it worth getting an appraisal or second opinion on; I think it can be safely disregarded as bad advice (just my onion, as Pete14 would say). If the piano in the future needs regulation at whatever point, get the regulation done.

If Alexander is experienced, sure. If he is not, how would he know if regulation is needed? I think an independent technician could be more trustworthy, given the fact that the store seems more interested in "juicing" rather than providing a service -- at least for what we know, there may be other information which we do not know....

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On
David B #3036865 10/18/20 03:35 AM
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Well, I play on my NU1 maybe a couple of hours most day, so not much at all really. After 5 years and my first service the key action felt and looked like new to me, but during the service some small adjustments were made by the technician. I don't know what. After 8 years, I was aware some keys in the middle sections were looser and clacking somewhat more than others. I fixed this myself. Compared to other anecdotal reports of actions of DP's on here I think the action is quite durable and maintainable. It's an established design going back 100+ years, no glue, teflon, or grease, but even so a mechanical action primarily made of wood, paper, felt, cord, etc, is bound to need some maintenance to keep it performing well, and the frequency will depend on the frequency of use.

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On
David B #3036970 10/18/20 11:48 AM
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Bought the N1x this weekend and having it delivered tomorrow and super excited! Only regret is that I did not get to try the NV-10 (would have had to wait a few months), but the N1x action felt very nice, especially with Pianoteq!

Last edited by virtuoso_735; 10/18/20 11:48 AM.

"If music be the food of love, play on." -William Shakespeare
Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On
David B #3036977 10/18/20 12:05 PM
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You get a high-end piano ... and then sully it with Pianoteq?
That's like putting ketchup on a soufflé. frown

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On
MacMacMac #3036982 10/18/20 12:09 PM
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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
You get a high-end piano ... and then sully it with Pianoteq?
That's like putting ketchup on a soufflé. frown

Don't get me wrong, the binaural CFX and Bosendorfer samples are nice, but I find Pianoteq more responsive.


"If music be the food of love, play on." -William Shakespeare
Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On
virtuoso_735 #3036984 10/18/20 12:17 PM
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Quote
Don't get me wrong, the binaural CFX and Bosendorfer samples are nice, but I find Pianoteq more responsive.

Congrats on the soon to arrive N1X. I suspect you may change your mind about VSTs after you have the N1X for a while. I used VSTs exclusively before I got an N1X. Since I got the N1X I haven't used a VST once.

Last edited by NormB; 10/18/20 12:17 PM.
Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On
NormB #3036986 10/18/20 12:22 PM
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Originally Posted by NormB
Quote
Don't get me wrong, the binaural CFX and Bosendorfer samples are nice, but I find Pianoteq more responsive.

Congrats on the soon to arrive N1X. I suspect you may change your mind about VSTs after you have the N1X for a while. I used VSTs exclusively before I got an N1X. Since I got the N1X I haven't used a VST once.

I hope that is the case! I like having the option to play different pianos. I currently switch between on-board sounds, Pianoteq, and Garritan CFX on my current digital piano, but use Pianoteq the majority of the time.

Also, what exactly is the resonance modeling on the N1x? Is it turned on automatically or do you need to go into the app to switch it on? I tried holding down a bunch of bass note keys without sounding them, and played some treble notes. On an acoustic piano, you get some sustain of the notes because the dampers on the lower notes are up, but I didn't get any of that with the N1x on-board sounds (did work when connected to Pianoteq though). Strange that Yamaha didn't think of that, or maybe not possible with recorded samples?

Last edited by virtuoso_735; 10/18/20 12:23 PM.

"If music be the food of love, play on." -William Shakespeare
Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On
virtuoso_735 #3037002 10/18/20 01:05 PM
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virtuoso_735: What I find the best thing about playing the N1X with its internal sounds is that there is a uniform, faithful and instantaneous relationship between the keyboard and the resultant sounds. The keyboard itself is outstanding. Mine was completely uniform key to key when it arrived. It isn't absolutely identical to my experience with acoustic grand actions, but the differences to me are very small: less inertia (lighter hammer heads?) and a slightly slower repetition (because there is no hammer energy transferred back from the strings?). Neither are important to me. My finger memory from acoustic grands transferred right over. My only minor beef right now (four months or so into the experience) is that the dynamic range seems a bit reduced from that on acoustic grands, and that if I adjust the speaker volume to what seems right for 'normal' playing I can play way more softly than on an acoustic grand, but far less loudly.

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On
virtuoso_735 #3037009 10/18/20 01:18 PM
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Originally Posted by virtuoso_735
Also, what exactly is the resonance modeling on the N1x? Is it turned on automatically or do you need to go into the app to switch it on? I tried holding down a bunch of bass note keys without sounding them, and played some treble notes. On an acoustic piano, you get some sustain of the notes because the dampers on the lower notes are up, but I didn't get any of that with the N1x on-board sounds (did work when connected to Pianoteq though). Strange that Yamaha didn't think of that, or maybe not possible with recorded samples?
This is implemented and works perfectly. Maybe you’ve inadvertently switched VRM off which would be a huge mistake. There’s a key combination for that in the manual but I’d recommend restoring factory defaults and then only carefully change settings only if you need to. When turning the instrument on, hold the highest C key while pressing the power button then release it, this should restore factory settings and enable Virtual Resonance Modeling. You will see “Clr” on display to confirm you’ve restored it. To me the N1X plays much better than Pianoteq and it’s a tremendous difference but I understand it’s a matter of taste.

Last edited by CyberGene; 10/18/20 01:19 PM.

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Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On
NormB #3037014 10/18/20 01:26 PM
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Originally Posted by NormB
Congrats on the soon to arrive N1X. I suspect you may change your mind about VSTs after you have the N1X for a while. I used VSTs exclusively before I got an N1X. Since I got the N1X I haven't used a VST once.
Same here smile The sampling for the N1X is just that good. I still think VST sound more pleasant, but the internal voices make the touch of the N1X feel significantly better than VST.


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Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On
David B #3037448 10/19/20 03:31 PM
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How fast is the action on the N1X can someone please describe the action in more detail?

I like to play advanced classical repertoire including chopin etudes etc.. How does the N1X handle repeated notes and trills and fast passages? I currently own ca99, it plays well, repeated notes are pretty decent. I've tried the NV10 and the action was simply amazing, the speed at which I could repeat the same key was the fastest I've ever experienced, it was effortless to play on. Pieces like la campanella and hungarian rhapsody no. 2 really test the actions. I don't want the NV10 though as I prefer the yamaha samples, just I won't be investing in a N1X if the action is slower and more difficult to play on than say my ca99 or yamaha clp685.. I've not heard much on the action of the N1X.

The dealer where i may buy from states the N1X has the same action as the GB1K grand... I've no idea how good that is, but i believe that's not a concert grand action like the Millennium III on the nv10, the GB1K is merely a baby grand piano, probably an entry level model, which costs about £8000.

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On
mwf #3037467 10/19/20 04:57 PM
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Originally Posted by mwf
The dealer where i may buy from states the N1X has the same action as the GB1K grand... I've no idea how good that is, but i believe that's not a concert grand action like the Millennium III on the nv10, the GB1K is merely a baby grand piano, probably an entry level model, which costs about £8000.

That's a misnomer. The NV10 (millennium III) action is not a concert grand action. It may be a good action, (maybe even better than the N1X), but it's not a concert grand action just because it shares some similar parts. I have ears and en elephant has ears, but that doesn't make me an elephant.

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Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On
David B #3037475 10/19/20 05:10 PM
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. The dealer where i may buy from states the N1X has the same action as the GB1K grand...

It isn't, and can't be the same . For one thing as with other modified grand piano actions the hammers are entirely different and of course do not hit anything; the hammer shanks do. It looks like both hammer and key weighting are different also.

But in the end you already know the mantra here: find one and play it yourself.

Last edited by NormB; 10/19/20 05:14 PM.
Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On
David B #3037476 10/19/20 05:13 PM
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Originally Posted by mwf
How fast is the action on the N1X can someone please describe the action in more detail?

I like to play advanced classical repertoire including chopin etudes etc.. How does the N1X handle repeated notes and trills and fast passages?

I don't think there are any rigorous tests out of repetition speed between the N1X vs. NV-10, but my feeling is that at the advanced pianist level, you really have to test out any given piano to be sure it suits your needs, there are far too many variables, and perhaps individual unit variances, to be able to draw a conclusion from what others report. There are plenty of concert pianists who have baby grands at home, or even uprights, and presumably they get what they need out of those, even if the pianos are not up to concert-grand specs. But I bet no matter what they have at home, they've play-tested it thoroughly and have determined firsthand that the piano is up to the task.

Originally Posted by David B
[quote=mwf]
That's a misnomer. The NV10 (millennium III) action is not a concert grand action. It may be a good action, (maybe even better than the N1X), but it's not a concert grand action just because it shares some similar parts.

CyberGene asked Kawai what was different between the NV-10 action and an SK (not necessarily an SK-EX). He posted the answer he received here.

As David describes, the core action pieces are the same across the line, with some key differences in individual parts, including significantly, the hammer shanks and hammers themselves, keysticks, counterweighitng, etc. Plus the level of prep/regulation. So if the NV-10 action is deemed "concert grand," then arguably so is GL-10/GL-30, GX-2, and any other recent model Kawai grand.


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