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P-515 as an alternative to Clavinova? and related queries
#3035692 10/14/20 11:52 PM
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So I was wanting to shop for a Clavinova 635-level or above, or a Kawaii etc. I intend to go to dealerships soon.

Then I discovered https://www.rimmersmusic.co.uk/blog/2019/02/yamaha-p515-the-best-slimline-clavinova-ever/ about stage piano P-515 being the European-tight-spaces alternative to Clavinovas. (Like you save -that- much space, when it's set up...) So, in looking for digital pianos a la Clavinova, should I be considering portable or quasi-stage pianos as well?

In particular, it seems Yamaha P-515 is most nearly a Clavinova CLP-645. (See comparison tables on Yamaha's site, or the reviewer below, Nov 2018.)


Quote
"So I can say that CLP-645 and P-515 are rather similar products, the main difference is portability and design. Clavinova is designed to stay statically in your room, and looks sturdy and stylish. P-515 is light-weight and portable, but furniture-style stand gives it all it needs to fit into interior. And if necessary it can be easily disconnected from the stand and taken away on a gig or some performance."

https://pickmypiano.com/best-yamaha-digital-pianos/

Now, CL-645 seems like a good baseline, but if I end up looking for something more than CL-645, the comparisons may drop out. Consider 675+ with some sort of GrandFeel action instead of NWX natural wood. With the new 700 series, some specs might not match up either.

There are a few differences between CLP-645 and P-515 to be found on the specifications tables:


  • I would need to buy a Yamaha setup and good pedals for the p-515. -If- those are still in stock somewhere reliable, I think they would not bring the price up nearly so much as picking Clavinova.
  • Otherwise, the speakers/amplifiers may be different. I will likely use headphones a lot.



If there was a difference in durability/reliability, that could matter (though P-515 looks affordable). That's what I can't really evaluate from specs or a dealership.

2.
In other brands, are there portable/etc. pianos that might be worth trying against digital pianos for the sake of a serious, dedicated at-home digital piano? (I would look at Kawai, Yamaha, Roland, Casio.) If so, which of the dedicated digital pianos appear to be their nearest rivals?

---

And what are the drawbacks for trying to find a portable piano as my digital piano?

As far as I can see it, the drawback of getting a P-515 etc. is that it's the best P- piano but only approximates a 645 Clavinova, and past that, you have to stop looking at Yamaha portable pianos.

Oh, and no key cover.

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Re: P-515 as an alternative to Clavinova? and related queries
winterflower #3035697 10/15/20 12:05 AM
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You should post this in the Digital Piano Forum. This Forum is primarily for the discussion of acoustic pianos.

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Re: P-515 as an alternative to Clavinova? and related queries
winterflower #3035700 10/15/20 12:27 AM
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I have looked into this. Currently I have a 16 year old Yamaha p60 so at some point I would need to replace it, although it is going strong and currently there is no signs of it failing. For the record, it gets played rather heavily with 5 players at home. I personally prefer p515 for its simplicity and lack of bulk or weight. It should be very easy to move it around and if I remember correctly, it takes a 3 pedal unit and has the same action as the best clavinova model. There would be a significant saving over clavinova as well. I don’t have any experience with other brands so I can’t comment on that.

Last edited by K8KT; 10/15/20 12:29 AM.
Re: P-515 as an alternative to Clavinova? and related queries
winterflower #3035738 10/15/20 05:08 AM
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My suggestion is to stop trying to choose a piano, even a digital piano, by reading the specifications but to go into a big store, play some of them and find out which ones you like.

Then is the time to look at specifications and find what sort of alternatives are available around the models you like. And also to try an acoustic piano as well just so that you have that comparison to make.

Re: P-515 as an alternative to Clavinova? and related queries
gwing #3035800 10/15/20 05:59 AM
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Originally Posted by gwing
My suggestion is to stop trying to choose a piano, even a digital piano, by reading the specifications but to go into a big store, play some of them and find out which ones you like.

Then is the time to look at specifications and find what sort of alternatives are available around the models you like. And also to try an acoustic piano as well just so that you have that comparison to make.

+1.

The Roland FP-90 is another high-class "slab piano" to look at. So are the Kawai MP7se and MP11se, if you are willing to use outboard loudspeakers.

Last edited by Charles Cohen; 10/15/20 06:00 AM.

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Re: P-515 as an alternative to Clavinova? and related queries
winterflower #3035804 10/15/20 06:07 AM
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I know several people with the 515 who are happy with them. I also have a few customers who bought the 515, then traded up to the clp645 very quickly. The main complaint was that a slab just didn’t have the same “foundation” to the action that a regular acoustic piano, or a Clavinova, does.

So, I guess I echo gwing. Try them both out in person. Try an acoustic (or three) while you are at it.

Good luck and keep us posted,

Last edited by Rich Galassini; 10/15/20 06:08 AM. Reason: Misspelled gwing - sorry gwing!

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Re: P-515 as an alternative to Clavinova? and related queries
winterflower #3035868 10/15/20 09:55 AM
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I went through the same questions at the beginning of this year. I was in NYC at the very end of February (we were there to see Billy Joel), and I went to Sam Ash and B&H hoping to play a P515. Neither of them had one in stock. I did try various slab pianos from Casio/Kawai/Roland/etc. I had tried the various Clavinova offerings at around the same time at a local piano store, so I knew that I was good with the NWX action.

Based on my experiences with the CLP-645 and a lot of positive reviews I ended up ordering the P515, the stand and the triple pedal unit. The piano came from Musician's Friend and the stand and pedal unit came from Amazon. After like 7 months, here are my thoughts:

It is not a piece of furniture like the Clavinova. It looks like a keyboard or stage piano. But that is ok for me because it is in my office behind my desk. I can spin my chair around and practice before work/after work/lunch time/etc. The fact that it is small is great because it fits behind my desk. If you were hoping to put it in your living room, you might be a bit disappointed in the looks.

It is a great practice instrument. I do almost all of my practicing with headphones (because nobody else in the house really wants to hear me playing Hanon exercises or fumbling my way through sight reading a new piece). The binaural sampling on the CFX is awesome with headphones. The action is definitely on the heavy side (way heavier than the upright in our living room), but to me that is good because it is better exercise for my fingers. I do have to hold back a bit when I play the upright because I'm so used to the P515 action.

I look at if this way... For $1700ish I have the action/samples/electronics of a CLP-645 in a much smaller package. It works great for me because I play primarily with headphones and I really am not concerned with aesthetics.


Hope this helps!

Matt


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Re: P-515 as an alternative to Clavinova? and related queries
Mwieczorek223 #3035995 10/15/20 02:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Mwieczorek223
I went through the same questions at the beginning of this year. I was in NYC at the very end of February (we were there to see Billy Joel), and I went to Sam Ash and B&H hoping to play a P515. Neither of them had one in stock. I did try various slab pianos from Casio/Kawai/Roland/etc. I had tried the various Clavinova offerings at around the same time at a local piano store, so I knew that I was good with the NWX action.

Based on my experiences with the CLP-645 and a lot of positive reviews I ended up ordering the P515, the stand and the triple pedal unit. The piano came from Musician's Friend and the stand and pedal unit came from Amazon. After like 7 months, here are my thoughts:

It is not a piece of furniture like the Clavinova. It looks like a keyboard or stage piano. But that is ok for me because it is in my office behind my desk. I can spin my chair around and practice before work/after work/lunch time/etc. The fact that it is small is great because it fits behind my desk. If you were hoping to put it in your living room, you might be a bit disappointed in the looks.

It is a great practice instrument. I do almost all of my practicing with headphones (because nobody else in the house really wants to hear me playing Hanon exercises or fumbling my way through sight reading a new piece). The binaural sampling on the CFX is awesome with headphones. The action is definitely on the heavy side (way heavier than the upright in our living room), but to me that is good because it is better exercise for my fingers. I do have to hold back a bit when I play the upright because I'm so used to the P515 action.

I look at if this way... For $1700ish I have the action/samples/electronics of a CLP-645 in a much smaller package. It works great for me because I play primarily with headphones and I really am not concerned with aesthetics.


Hope this helps!

Matt

I have played several of Yamaha's digital pianos at music stores, and like Matt, I have found the actions heavy with a sluggish feel that is unlike any acoustic piano. I especially notice the sluggishness when playing quick passages. For that reason, I have never bought one even though the option to play through headphones would be great. Have other people noticed this?

Re: P-515 as an alternative to Clavinova? and related queries
winterflower #3036036 10/15/20 03:54 PM
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Originally Posted by winterflower
And what are the drawbacks for trying to find a portable piano as my digital piano?

As far as I can see it, the drawback of getting a P-515 etc. is that it's the best P- piano but only approximates a 645 Clavinova, and past that, you have to stop looking at Yamaha portable pianos.

Oh, and no key cover.

It's a slab and the speakers are not so great. If you like the form factor, P-515 is a nice instrument. The action (NWX) is heavier than average and it sounds like Yamaha.

MP7SE/MP11SE, RD-2000 etc are all Stage Pianos... probably the same but with some few different quirks.

If you don't gig, get CLP. Slabs don't look nice. Lots of wires etc


Kawai MP7SE, Yamaha MOTF XF6, Yamaha WX5, Yamaha Pacifica 112v
Re: P-515 as an alternative to Clavinova? and related queries
winterflower #3036059 10/15/20 06:06 PM
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I tried the 635, 645 and the 515 in different shops. i preferred the 635 but the action was poor imo. I bought the 515 for space assuming the sound in my small room would be similar to that of the 645 in a larger one.
It's been very good. The pedal unit is good looking but just passable to play. At my level, its fine.
The action feels light and agile - on the setting I have.
It's a looker, too, tucked away nicely. The wife loves it. Definitely one of my better buys.


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Re: P-515 as an alternative to Clavinova? and related queries
winterflower #3036125 10/15/20 10:56 PM
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I bought the P-515 at the begininning of this year 'cause I needed a digital piano to practice after dinner.
I chose it for 3 main reasons:
- it's compact also mounted on its stand;
- it has the Bosendorfer sample;
- it has sympathetic resonance.
I also chose it 'cause people kept saying its action is the heavier of the bunch (I always prefered heavy actions)... well regarding this I was really disappointed: the action is good but it's not so heavy, it's similar to the one of my upright.
I can't comment about the speakers 'cause I use the P-515 only with my headphones... when I can play during the day I just play my upright.

Last edited by orcoaffamato; 10/15/20 11:05 PM.

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Re: P-515 as an alternative to Clavinova? and related queries
orcoaffamato #3036128 10/15/20 11:24 PM
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Originally Posted by orcoaffamato
I also chose it 'cause people kept saying its action is the heavier of the bunch (I always prefered heavy actions)... well regarding this I was really disappointed: the action is good but it's not so heavy, it's similar to the one of my upright.
A lot of acoustic uprights do have heavy actions - most are heavier than actions on acoustic grand pianos. So being similar to your upright does not mean it's not heavy.

Last edited by Burkey; 10/15/20 11:26 PM.

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Re: P-515 as an alternative to Clavinova? and related queries
Burkey #3036143 10/16/20 01:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Burkey
Originally Posted by orcoaffamato
I also chose it 'cause people kept saying its action is the heavier of the bunch (I always prefered heavy actions)... well regarding this I was really disappointed: the action is good but it's not so heavy, it's similar to the one of my upright.
A lot of acoustic uprights do have heavy actions - most are heavier than actions on acoustic grand pianos. So being similar to your upright does not mean it's not heavy.

Yes, and the best advice you will get time and again here is to test before you buy.

The P515 is like a CLP clavinova (not a CVP) ie, it doesn't have much arranger capability.

There are two major portable instruments that rival the P515:

Kawai ES920 (newly released this month, replaces ES8)
Roland FP-90

The both the Kawai and Roland have a lighter action of slightly better quality in terms of having discernible let-off simulation. If you are used to a lighter action or prefer something closer in weight to the average grand piano, then these two might suit.

Sound wise, the ES920 has a warmer more detailed tone and the Roland uses modelling instead of sampling (so more expressionate but less realistic. But then these days, people use multiple gigabyte piano libraries as sound source anyway.

Amplification wise, portable pianos are not like clavinova. The amplification is of lower power and it points upwards from the top of the instrument. Many people choose to use extra monitors with portable pianos in the home eg Focal Alpha 50 monitors..

Anyway, Abdol is correct to advise you try the MP7SE as you get far more for your money.

The Kawai MP11SE and Roland RD2000 are more pricy. The MP11SE has a different league of action, as it's not folded and has much longer keys. If you are a classical pianist, then the MP11SE is a better instrument than the P515 as it feels much better and provides superior control.

Last edited by Doug M.; 10/16/20 01:43 AM.

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Re: P-515 as an alternative to Clavinova? and related queries
Rich Galassini #3036148 10/16/20 01:59 AM
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When I read about a "slab" piano the image of a slab of beef pops into my head ...
Originally Posted by Rich Galassini
The main complaint was that a slab just didn’t have the same “foundation” to the action that a regular acoustic piano, or a Clavinova, does.
Do we need a different word to describe such a keyboard? I think we do.

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Re: P-515 as an alternative to Clavinova? and related queries
Doug M. #3036151 10/16/20 02:20 AM
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I think the sound of P515 is more close to acoustic piano than that of ES920, ES8, and FP90, which even gives the hammer action softer and more natural feeling.

I'm not sure if that is just my personal taste because I've mostly practiced on Yamaha grand pianos. But definitely I was happy with P515 when I tried it several times.

Re: P-515 as an alternative to Clavinova? and related queries
writer #3036213 10/16/20 08:11 AM
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Originally Posted by dolcelatte
I think the sound of P515 is more close to acoustic piano than that of ES920, ES8, and FP90, which even gives the hammer action softer and more natural feeling.

I'm not sure if that is just my personal taste because I've mostly practiced on Yamaha grand pianos. But definitely I was happy with P515 when I tried it several times.

Comparing samples only, to begin with:

Comparing Tone: Subjective preference
The two pianos sample two different brands of acoustic piano, so with respect, the Kawai sample should be judged on how accurate a representation of the SK5 and SK9 concert grand pianos; whereas, the Yamaha should be judged on how accurate a representation they have achieved of the CFX grand and Bosendorfer grand (whatever Bosendorfer they sampled). Which you prefer there greatly will affect your judgement of the sound, and that seems reasonable. All I can say is that IMO, the main tones on both instruments are really good representations of SK9 and CFX grand pianos compared to previous generations of Kawai and Yamaha sampling. It could be argued that Garritan CFX Grand has a more authentic representation of the CFX tone, but obviously, that method of sampling isn't for home instruments.
That's what I think about sample tone: it really is personal preference.


Comparing Sample Quality: Detail versus Fidelity

There are for me, a few ways to analyse the sample quality:
1) Pure sample quality without effects, without binaural, without modelling
2) Sample with all those things (so basically total quality i.e., mix of quality/detail and fidelity.
3) Headphone experience (how good the instrument sounds using headphones
4) Experience through on-board speakers
5) Connection through the action (software/hardware interface quality)

If you listen first to the CFX sample in the CP88 (which has no binaural sampling and no string resonance), it is a truly shockingly bad sample for 2020: dull, lifeless and with no particular detail. I suspect Yamaha's evolution of the AWM2 into the newer generation sampling has left the sample quality very bright but compressed more than other manufacturers (except maybe Nord) and lacking in sample detail. Interestingly, if you turn off the string and damper res on the Kawai SK9, the basic tone is still quite detailed, but the fidelity and harmonics/resonances disappear, so one's experience suffers.

The binaural sampling gives the CFX grand sample a complete lift, not in terms of tone, but in terms of audio quality (fidelity and clarity) and in terms of soundstage (feel enveloped in the sound). I really like that sound through headphones, but don't think it's better than the Kawai sample, despite the high-fidelity experience.

However, binaural sampling and modelled string resonance does nothing to improve the details across the range of samples for each note... The String Res modelling partially rescues the lack of detail in the CFX sample by providing over-tones and harmonic resonances, but compared side-by-side with the Kawai (see below video by Merriam Music), it's clear the Kawai has more detail.



He's not the only one to point it out, as you can watch here:




Experience through on-board speakers:

However, whilst the CLP645 has a combined power output of 50 watts, the P515 only has 45 watts output (2 x 15, plus 2 x 5W). However, there is no cabinet to get the sound out of with the P515. Offset against this is the upward pointing speakers, so the P515 lacks the forward facing speakers that cabinet pianos have. This is why I advise extra monitors for portable pianos.

The CLP735 and CLP645/CLP745 really do not sound anywhere near as good as the CLP685 and CLP785, an indication that bespoke amplification and better quality amps in those top models really bring out the string resonance modelling --- this also can be seen in Roland models, where modelled piano sounds better through top-end models like the LX17 and LX708.

If I were buying a portable P515, FP-90 or ES929, I would want either to play only with headphones, or through external monitors to get the best out of the sample. I would certainly not feel satisfied with any of the onboard systems.


Connection through the action (software/hardware interface quality)

The action on the P515 is actually not found in the latest series CLP7XX pianos; rather, it is an older action that mirrors the CLP545 and CLP645. It is an action originally introduced on the CLP545 that performs well but is known to be hefty. During that period (2016), Kawai and Roland were pushing the boat out action wise, and produced a range of really good updates to folded actions in order to lighten the actions and include more subtle aspects such as let-off. The playing experience of the FP90 action (PHA50) and the Kawai action (RHIII) is very good indeed. I personally find the control experience quite equitable between the P515 and the ES8/MP7SE and the FP90/RD2000/LX17 etc, even though the NWX let-off simulation doesn't really show through.

I think Roland has the edge slightly when it comes down to overall expressiveness and control with the folded actions, the RHIII action and the SK9 sample do really fit and work well together, one feels really connected.

I only get a better connection through the high grade CLP's (657/685) and through non-folded actions such as Grand Feel I, and II (yet to test III).

I think the main difference between connection is that the weight difference of the NWX action would take getting used to if you didn't play on such a heavy action normally. Otherwise, I don't think there is a clear winner on point 5.

All in all, I don't think there is any particular reason to favour the P515 over the ES920 or ES8, other than a personal preference for heavier action and brighter sound (and preference for the tone of the CFX or Bosendorfer compared to the warmer mellower SK6 and SK9 grands.

One has to test the instruments side-by-side to really appreciate the differences up-close.
These instruments are all really high quality however, and whichever one chooses, one would be happy.

Kind regards,

Doug.

Last edited by Doug M.; 10/16/20 08:14 AM.

Instruments: Current - Kawai MP7SE; Past - Kawai MP7, Yamaha PSR7000
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Re: P-515 as an alternative to Clavinova? and related queries
BruceD #3036397 10/16/20 04:31 PM
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Right, I forgot there was the digital piano forum somehow.

Sorry!

Re: P-515 as an alternative to Clavinova? and related queries
winterflower #3036399 10/16/20 04:37 PM
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Thanks everyone.


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