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Originally Posted by CyberGene
I even created an (infamous?) thread regarding this ๐Ÿ˜€
I suppose you are refering to this: http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthre...-disappointed-with-kawai-rm3-action.html
That describes my experience, as I've been mostly playing on uprights before returning to digital. I wonder if that is valid also for grand actions...

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Originally Posted by DPAfficionado
Originally Posted by CyberGene
I even created an (infamous?) thread regarding this ๐Ÿ˜€
I suppose you are refering to this: http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthre...-disappointed-with-kawai-rm3-action.html
That describes my experience, as I've been mostly playing on uprights before returning to digital. I wonder if that is valid also for grand actions...
Ha! Funny that you found this. Iโ€™ve totally forgotten about this thread, really ๐Ÿ˜ฎ I meant a thread from this year which I infamously called something around the lines of โ€œwhy digital piano actions are badโ€. And I thought I discovered America! Somehow embarrassing that Iโ€™ve apparently complained about exactly the same thing 9 years ago and forgot about it ๐Ÿ˜ฎ But yeah, thereโ€™s consistency. Thanks for finding that old thread.


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received my yamaha CLP-745 great keyboard but very very noisy regarding my old CLP-535 frown

that suxs because i like playing at night with headphones, and my wife is alreading complaining about the noise

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How is the grand-touch S in comprasion to PHA-50?


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Tony from Bonners is going to compare the Yamaha CLP 745, Kawai CA59, and Casio GP310 in a livestream in about 20 hours. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JqDojhfHU7g

Last edited by GreatShowmanChopin; 10/17/20 06:26 PM.
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I wonder if Yamaha will release the CLP-775 in the U.S.? I'm seeing the CLP-745 then jumping to the 785 if I skip the GP designs. I like the 755 case and better sound system than the 745 and the 785 looks like the NU1X. Anyone know what Yamaha will do?

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Hi all,

I am new to the party, so let me introduce myself. This is going to be a lengthy post, so please bear with me. I am a totally beginner and will be starting piano lessons this Friday. For the time being, I practice on a 49key ESI board using the freely available binaural samples of an upright recorded by Michael Picher. So far, this is the third week I am practicing alone and I am trying to master the C major scale and this weekend I started Satie's Gymnopedie 1 (hopefully I will be playing the intro by the end of this week). My target is to be able to play really good in 10 years time.

Given all that, with two children at home (four and one and a half years old) I am in the hunt for a digital piano, since the only time I can practice is too early in the morning (6.00 AM) or late at night (after 11.00 PM). I paid a visit to the local Yamaha dealer last week and tried the CLP 735, the 775 (no 745 was available and nothing from the Arius line), a B1 SG2, a Roland FP40 and a range of acoustics, Yamaha B1, Samick, Young Chang. I was mostly interested for the 735 and 745.

First things first. The appearance. I like it. I was opting for the dark walnut or the rosewood. The dark walnut was not available, but the 735 was in black (not polished) and the 775 was in rosewood. Much to my surprise I preferred the black. Now, the keys on the 735 look a bit pale compared to the 775, but that is noticeable if you have another piano nearby. However, I saw a scratch on some keys on the high register of the 775, which makes me wonder about the build quality.

Regarding the key action, take all my comments with a big grain of salt, cause since I am a beginner I literally have no idea of what I am talking about. Anyway, this is more or less what I felt trying the various pianos in front of me. I found that the CLPs were neither the heavier nor the lighter compared with the acoustics. The 775 was definitely heavier than the 735 and I think I liked that more. I consider the 775 more responsive, but I will have to try them again. Then I noticed that the 735 was set to the soft 1 setting, so I turned it to hard 1 and found that setting better to my liking. To be honest, I am not quite sure I liked the feel of the keys much (compared to the acoustics), but either way, both models are quite in another league compared to what I have now (for the better). The Roland in comparison felt a bit springy. The B1 SG2 felt "just right", but its about 5K so it's out of my budget and noticed that it has only 64 voice polyphony when using it as a digital, which might be a problem in the future.

As far as the sound is concerned, through the speakers I think the 775 was acceptable, the 735 nothing special and both nowhere near a real piano, especially in the lower register. When testing the headphones (which is the mode that I will be using most) I only had my hands-free set with me at the time, which is less than ideal to judge things. Next time I will have my AT-M50H to be sure. Even so, with the hands-free set I did not like the sound (no matter if it was the CFX or the Bosendorfer), especially below C3 and going lower. To be honest, I think I prefer the sound of the samples of the upright I am using now, but as I stated above, I will have to test the CLPs with decent headphones to compare apples to apples. Nevertheless, an acoustic piano is not an option for me for the next 5-6 years, so compromises must and will be made.

What I 've found out, is that despite all the commercial blurb, one thing was quite apart from a real piano: that is what I would call the feeling of "immersion", in lack of my competence to find a better description or suitable word. It's as if the instrument is there but "it is not". It is probably due to the more imminent response of the acoustic piano, the feedback of the key when the hammer hits the string, the resonance of the wooden body of the real piano, I don't know, but something is missing.But...compromises will be made.

So now I am totally confused. I guess I must be the 10000000000th person asking the same things. I thought I was going to be impressed and that the 735 and 745 will tick all the boxes right away but I was not. And now I realize that I am hesitant to spend 2000 or 2700 for an instrument that I am not sure that it will cut it out in the long run. I will wait for the 745 to arrive in the dealer shop (about early November) and test again and hopefully make a more positive assessment. In the meantime I 've found a used 545 in mint condition for 1.5K euros. Is it worth to give the extra 1200 for the 745? Or should I go even lower to the Arius range? Or the other way around? Spend a little more and get a Casio GP 310 (about 3000 euros) which based on what I 've read so far is supposed to have a better action (which I think is what matters most for my skills development)?

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It's hard to pick a first piano. But this will be your second. So, if you have the means, go large. A cheap piano will soon reveal its cheapness.

It seems you've ruled out the 735. I would, too. There's a nearly equivalent Arius model for less money.

The 775 gets ripped for feeling too heavy. (Or was that its predecessor, the 675?)

I think you also should try the Kawai CA79 and CA99 ... if budget permits.
Or the less expensive Kawai CA49 and CA59.

Speaking of price ... it's not clear how much you might wish to spend.
And you haven't indicated your location ... which affects price.
So it's hard to know what fits your budget.

Parting thought: Find a piano you love. Buy that one.

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Originally Posted by iliverez
So now I am totally confused. I guess I must be the 10000000000th person asking the same things. I thought I was going to be impressed and that the 735 and 745 will tick all the boxes right away but I was not. And now I realize that I am hesitant to spend 2000 or 2700 for an instrument that I am not sure that it will cut it out in the long run. I will wait for the 745 to arrive in the dealer shop (about early November) and test again and hopefully make a more positive assessment. In the meantime I 've found a used 545 in mint condition for 1.5K euros. Is it worth to give the extra 1200 for the 745? Or should I go even lower to the Arius range? Or the other way around? Spend a little more and get a Casio GP 310 (about 3000 euros) which based on what I 've read so far is supposed to have a better action (which I think is what matters most for my skills development)?

Hey iliverez! Welcome to the forums. Sorry you had a bad first experience with the CLP 700 line.

Based on your description of what you're looking for, you might not be satisfied with any brand at this price point. I don't blame you for wanting a really authentic experience, but it comes at a price. wink You might want to try a hybrid keyboard of some kind. On the cheaper end, you might want to try the Casio GP510, although I prefer Yamaha's sound over it. Also around that price point is Yamaha's NU1X, which I have heard good things about in terms of key action. There are whole threads on this forum dedicated to both instruments, if memory serves. At the upper end, a lot of people seem really happy with the Kawai Novus line, but you're going to have to shell out some serious cash for that.

Unfortunately, I'm not sure that any of these models are going to address your concern with "sounding nothing like an acoustic piano." I haven't yet heard a sample that could fool me into thinking that a digital was actually an acoustic, at least for the discerning ear. If the price range of the CLP 785 is an option (which is still cheaper than the hybrids I've mentioned), the 785's impressive speaker system gave it an edge in the videos that I have heard so far. Here is a video (I started it at 44:43) that gives a pretty good demo. Here is another video that demonstrates scales and Hanon.

You may enjoy the process more if you adjust your expectations from "what sounds exactly like an acoustic piano" to what sound is enjoyable. If Yamaha's samples are not to your liking, please listen to some of Kawai's, as many people like those a lot.

Another option that is a little more technically complicated is to use a VST (virtual studio technology) with the digital piano that has the best action. You can basically think of this as replacing the default piano samples that come with your digital piano with ones that are far superior. While digital pianos have not been able to fool me, VSTs come really close. A much beloved one is the Garritan CFX, but there are plenty of others you can research. You'll also want to research a guide for how to incorporate a VST into your digital piano playing. Note that samples are only as good as the headphones and speaker system you listen to them on. If you currently lack a pair of quality headphones to use with a digital piano, I'd recommend these.

I hope that wasn't way more information than you needed, but I've been doing a lot of research myself lately and am hopeful that this can be helpful to you. Happy hunting!

Last edited by Tozen; 10/19/20 11:24 AM.
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Hi iliverez,

I am in a similar situation as you (limited budget, and also conveniently a 4 year old and 1.5 year old at home)! My piano playing experience is a bit more but I'm still early intermediate.

My situation is that I'm buying a piano now, but I probably expect to look again in 10 - 15 years (at that point, I'll see the state of digital vs acoustic and also how often I've played over 10 years). For now, I am looking for a piano for this first to middle stage of my piano journey. Also, I keep in mind that even if I were to get top of the line today, certain things like the piano sound will probably not remain state of the art in just a few years. For example, I had a chance to buy a Yamaha CLP 585PE for ~$3000 and probably less and didn't take it - even though it was top of the line just a few years ago, it doesn't seem to compare head to head to today's digital piano lineup in terms of sample sound.

If you just want straight up advice from a complete stranger, all I've read would indicate:

- If you can stomach the design and sound of the Casio GDP 310, go for that. It has a great action (good actions don't age) that will carry you learning all sorts of pieces. Unfortunately, I personally don't like the look or sound of Casio, so that piano is a no go for me. I might have been able to get over the logo (maybe...), but the sound character through headphones is just not my style at all - it sounds very "digital" to me. If I was really into playing with VSTs I might have chosen this one since then the onboard sounds wouldn't matter as much.
- If not the Casio for sound/aesthetic reasons, try exploring the Kawai CA79. I'd say you go down one notch in action, but gain a lot in piano sound as well as aesthetics.
- And if something about the Kawai (again, probably either the sound or aesthetics rather than the action) doesn't quite hit you the right way, or something about Yamaha just hits you I the right way, go for CLP 745 / 775 / 785. Again you're likely going down one notch in action (I can't understand why Yamaha can't just release a line of Clavinovas without some having controversial actions, and without 4 different action options where going up in the range is not necessarily "better" ... c'mon Yamaha). But you get a different aesthetic and sound that might appeal to you more.

I went for Yamaha 745PE (still waiting for it ...) although I'm not 100% sure I made the right decision versus a Kawai CA79. For me, I really like the sound characteristic of the two Yamaha pianos (CFX / Bosendorfer) and the Kawai sound just doesn't connect with me the same way. I can't tell you why that is, many experienced pianists prefer the sound of the Kawai. I also like the look of the Yamaha (e.g., the fallboard area) and the slightly better price versus CA79 is also nice. My main concern, which I won't really know the answer to until it arrives, is whether the Yamaha CLP 745 action will be truly great or not. I worry about this, but then I watch YouTubers like Nahre Sol play cheap keyboards, old digital pianos, etc. all of which undoubtedly have worse actions than the 745 will, and with a ton of control and skill and decide I should probably spend my time worrying about how to become a skilled pianist like them rather than splitting hairs between several really great options which exist today. If I ever start playing Chopin Etudes with a reasonable level of competency (which will be at least 10 years from now) then I will likely revisit getting another piano, and at that point will not order anything until playing it first. For now, I think a lot of things would have worked nicely, the Yamaha just spoke to me more.

Good luck!

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Thank you all for for your kind responses. When I started searching (actually reading forums and watching videos) I had a top limit of 2k euros. After reading this thread I thought I should go higher for the 745 and extended the budget up to 2700. I am located in Athens Greece.

As far as prices are concerned I 've found the following:
* Yamaha CLP 545 used 1550e
* Yamaha CLP 735 2000e
* Yamaha CLP 745 2700e
* Yamaha CLP 775 3660e (out of budget)
* Casio GP-300 2700
* Casio GP-310 3000 (out of budget, but may fit if I go nuts and totally overboard)
* Kawai CA-49 2100
* Kawai CA-59 2700
* Kawai CA-79 3150 (out of budget)

Regarding the CLP line, it's not that I didn't really like the 735 and 775, but my expectations for the 735 were much higher. The 775 is out of my budget. Reading my post I think my writing was misleading. So, let's be more precise. I think that the 775 key action was good. Really good. It is the action of the 735 that gives me second thoughts. I found more natural the 775 both in hitting the key and in its return, where I found the 735 to be somewhat sluggish in the return at the end of the movement. Again, I am a newbie, I have not really played with weighted keys and my remarks may be off by quite a margin. It's a comparison with the acoustics I found there at the moment, where the return was faster but not springy, closer to or just like the 775's response. Regarding the sound (I guess with headphones it's the same for both), maybe playing already with VSTs I am spoiled, but I still have to listen the Yamahas with proper headphones to be fair. The CLPs are still in the game for me. Appearance (funny as it may sound) is a major factor too and I want the piano to be good looking and inviting me to use it. I hope that the 745 will be fine and pull the trigger on that one.

The Kawai range was also in my plans, but then I saw this video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZqzgVHv_D7U) of a teacher evaluating the CA-58 that gave me second thoughts, since some owners of either the same, the CN39 or the CA78 confirmed the issues. I will try them though, since the show room is near my job.

Now the Casio line. I can stomach the looks of the GP310 and a twisted side of me likes it, at least in half of the videos I 've seen, but my dear lady having already seen the Yamahas and the Kawais gave a first no. Hearing the price another no, but that's under discussion. Another issue is that I am not quite sure about the support here, since the distributor provides all the casio product range, from clocks to calculators etc., so I have to check if they have the required personnel to repair pianos. I will try to see if it is available for demo too. However the videos sound impressive (but that was the case with the 735 too).

computron, please share your experience when the 745 arrives. And you are quite right in the part that first we have to build our skills than worrying about details. I don't know if I will ever manage to play the etudes in this life, but I aim to, even if it takes 20 years. If I manage to do decently the Raindrop in the next 10 years I will be really happy.

Tozen, I am quite familiar with the VST route, that's what I do now, but I prefer the simplicity of sit down and study. I checked the Garritan and is quite impressive. Going off topic, how good and fast is the response when combined with your digital piano compared to the stock engine? Do you use it with a Yamaha CLP? In the drumming part of my musical endeavors I liked the sound of various VSTs way more than the stock Roland sound, but I 've found that the Roland native engine produced the most real life like experience in terms of response, timing and control of my playing.

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Originally Posted by iliverez
The Kawai range was also in my plans, but then I saw this video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZqzgVHv_D7U) of a teacher evaluating the CA-58 that gave me second thoughts, since some owners of either the same, the CN39 or the CA78 confirmed the issues [of controlling very quiet notes consistently].

I haven't seen videos of piano teachers checking that specific aspect on other brands of digital pianos.

They could have the same issue.

Or not.

(The point is I wouldn't get too obsessed about details like these without actual first hand experience.)

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Originally Posted by clothearednincompo
Originally Posted by iliverez
The Kawai range was also in my plans, but then I saw this video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZqzgVHv_D7U) of a teacher evaluating the CA-58 that gave me second thoughts, since some owners of either the same, the CN39 or the CA78 confirmed the issues [of controlling very quiet notes consistently].

I haven't seen videos of piano teachers checking that specific aspect on other brands of digital pianos.

They could have the same issue.

Or not.

(The point is I wouldn't get too obsessed about details like these without actual first hand experience.)

That's fair and correct. One of the commenters that confirmed the issue still preferred the action of his CA-78 compared to the competition. I doubt that at my level I will be able to determine whether it is the lack of my ability or a problem of the piano if I get dropped notes or any inconsistency.

I intend to try them, but I just spoke with the distributor and they informed me that due to the COVID-19 related problems they are totally run out of digital pianos. They expect to get a new batch of digital pianos by January. I 'll see if I can wait till then.

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Originally Posted by iliverez
I will wait for the 745 to arrive in the dealer shop (about early November) and test again and hopefully make a more positive assessment.
I purchased the 745 last month after comparing models for 18 months.
Take your good headphones in and try the 775 again - if you still don't like the sound then you are not going to like the sound of the 745 either.
If you do like the sound through your good headphones then, whilst you are waiting for the 745 to arrive, go and try the Kawai CA79. In that Kawai fixed the main problems with the CA78 keys.

The only reason I went with the 745 over the CA79 was price.
Here the 745 is about 1,250 โ‚ฌ cheaper than the CA79 (745 = ~1,850 โ‚ฌ, CA79 = ~3,100 โ‚ฌ). So if the CA79 is within your budget it definitely has the superior key action.

Last edited by Burkey; 10/20/20 08:31 AM.

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A fairly long unboxing (and assembling) video for the CLP-765GP:



I somehow like videos like this. They're so soothing... :-)


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Originally Posted by iliverez
Tozen, I am quite familiar with the VST route, that's what I do now, but I prefer the simplicity of sit down and study. I checked the Garritan and is quite impressive. Going off topic, how good and fast is the response when combined with your digital piano compared to the stock engine? Do you use it with a Yamaha CLP? In the drumming part of my musical endeavors I liked the sound of various VSTs way more than the stock Roland sound, but I 've found that the Roland native engine produced the most real life like experience in terms of response, timing and control of my playing.

Nice. I've not yet tried using a VST live, so I unfortunately can't comment on it. I ordered from the CLP 700 series because I liked the samples, so the only thing I really am considering a VST for is for sharing recordings with friends and family.

As a side note, I actually just updated my order to a 785 (Foxy, if you're reading this, I am sure this will make you happy, haha). Like you, I didn't really want to shell out the money for a higher model, but I moved some stuff in my budget and thought it might be worth it to dig a little deeper for this round. The touch was important, but after testing some pianos at my local store, I realized that having a big sound is REALLY fun, so I'm definitely looking forward to that. It still won't sound like a grand piano, but considering the price I'm paying compared to the real deal, I feel like I'm getting a steal. wink

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Originally Posted by Tozen
Originally Posted by iliverez
Tozen, I am quite familiar with the VST route, that's what I do now, but I prefer the simplicity of sit down and study. I checked the Garritan and is quite impressive. Going off topic, how good and fast is the response when combined with your digital piano compared to the stock engine? Do you use it with a Yamaha CLP? In the drumming part of my musical endeavors I liked the sound of various VSTs way more than the stock Roland sound, but I 've found that the Roland native engine produced the most real life like experience in terms of response, timing and control of my playing.

Nice. I've not yet tried using a VST live, so I unfortunately can't comment on it. I ordered from the CLP 700 series because I liked the samples, so the only thing I really am considering a VST for is for sharing recordings with friends and family.

As a side note, I actually just updated my order to a 785 (Foxy, if you're reading this, I am sure this will make you happy, haha). Like you, I didn't really want to shell out the money for a higher model, but I moved some stuff in my budget and thought it might be worth it to dig a little deeper for this round. The touch was important, but after testing some pianos at my local store, I realized that having a big sound is REALLY fun, so I'm definitely looking forward to that. It still won't sound like a grand piano, but considering the price I'm paying compared to the real deal, I feel like I'm getting a steal. wink

Were you able to actually test out a 785? I contacted my dealer and it looks like I won't be getting mine until November now. Still anxiously waiting!

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Originally Posted by GreatShowmanChopin
Were you able to actually test out a 785? I contacted my dealer and it looks like I won't be getting mine until November now. Still anxiously waiting!

I wasn't able to, unfortunately. There aren't really good places to test Clavinovas out near where I am, so I've had to try out systems that have the kind of features that I am looking for and see what is important to me (like a full and big sound). Thankfully, I like the features/sound/looks of the CLP range over Kawai to know that I'm comfortable with this decision even if the ca79 ends up having a slightly better action, so I'm not too stressed. wink If I ever upgrade again in the future to the REALLY high tier stuff I'll definitely want to try that, but seeing as I'm coming from a Yamaha P45 I'm pretty sure I'm going to be happy regardless lol.

EDIT: As a side note, I'm happy that you're getting November as your ETA. I was told late November, but with further delays it is looking like it could more realistically be the end of December. Oh well. I've waited this long... what is another month or two =P

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Originally Posted by Tozen
[quote=GreatShowmanChopin]

EDIT: As a side note, I'm happy that you're getting November as your ETA. I was told late November, but with further delays it is looking like it could more realistically be the end of December. Oh well. I've waited this long... what is another month or two =P

Yeah. Of course it's subject to change, but I'm really hoping for November. I've been waiting for Yamaha to announce the 700 series since probably March or April. So I guess what's one or two more months of waiting? Lol

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Hi guys

My CLP 745 (white ash) just arrived yesterday ๐ŸŽŠ๐ŸŽ‰
My first digital and it looks awesome. Will update u guys once I play around with it these few days.
p.s. Iโ€™m a beginner so donโ€™t expect too much from me ๐Ÿ˜‚

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A thought experiment
by cygnusdei - 10/26/21 03:58 AM
Modern U where is the sample folder located?
by MooganDavid - 10/25/21 11:33 PM
Download Sheet Music
Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads
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Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads



 
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