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Re: 'D' Position
Greener #3035108 10/13/20 08:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Greener
The exercises appear to be focused on the strongest fingers and a reasonable place to start. In real music though, your RH in most cases will follow the melody and could be anywhere within or around the D scale. The melody note, and the melody that precedes this, and what comes after it will determine where your hand needs to be and what fingering you choose. 1,3,5 fingers on D are fine until you have a melody above it, then it isn't. Or, if (D) is the melody and you already have it again in your LH, you won't really need it again with the thumb of your RH. Perhaps just drop it. You always will have to have fingers free to play the melody, so let this determine what other chord notes and fingers you use for any notes you choose to play below it. In the LH it is safe to start the root with your pinky, but it is not a rule and this may change too.

The problem is that as a beginner you should be careful with changing the fingering, because as my teacher told me, one of the biggest problems she sees is that the fingering is totally whack. SP is a method book in app form. If they tell you "put your thumb here", the song will be structured in a way so that it works perfectly, if you change that without really knowing what you are doing it's bound to be worse then what the piano teachers who inital devised the course came up with.

The end goal is what you described, but this isn't helpful for someone who is a beginner, because the question is "how do I get there". And the road that SP piano chose is to do it step by step.

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Re: 'D' Position
dantheman1983 #3035132 10/13/20 09:55 AM
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If you are confident with the method, than I agree to follow that method. Nonetheless, the OP was inquiring.

We are Adult Beginners and so I trust the OP can decide for themselves what will be most helpful for them.

Re: 'D' Position
Farmerjones #3035186 10/13/20 01:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Farmerjones
I'm going to guess/assume two things. D position is short for D chord position. And the examples are chords in the first inversion. (Left pinky and right thumb on the root) The rest of the fingers play the 3rd, and 5th.

A guitar player would know the chords of the G key are G(root), C(IV), and D(V).
The odd thing about a D chord is the F# in it. It should be automatic for a piano player to get that F# in there. One doesn't need to read notation to remember this. But as Ben said, don't get hung up on a particular finger being a particular note. It's easy enough to know the keyboard note names. Converting this to a number seems counter productive as well.

+1.

Violin players use "positions" heavily. But for piano, the notion of "position" is a beginner's crutch -- as Bennevis says, you might play any key with any finger, depending on the music.

As often happens, it can be difficult to give up the crutch, when you've outgrown its usefulness.


. Charles
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Re: 'D' Position
Charles Cohen #3035313 10/13/20 06:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Charles Cohen
+1.

Violin players use "positions" heavily. But for piano, the notion of "position" is a beginner's crutch -- as Bennevis says, you might play any key with any finger, depending on the music.

As often happens, it can be difficult to give up the crutch, when you've outgrown its usefulness.

Sorry for the OT that follows. smile

Some interesting thoughts to go with this. I've heard Suzuki violin students in particular, who almost go in panic mode when they first go out of position, when they first shift. They are trapped by "finger = note". The violin is like the piano in that way, that the same note can be played by different fingers because the location of the note is constant. Like, you can step on your front step with your left or right foot, or do a handstand on it - it's still your front step, and it's always right there.

I can't remember whether you played violin - if you did this excerpt (below) might mean something to you. This is a page from a book of studies for beginnerish students, by Geringas, and it was actually controversial. He had students shift right away. You'll notice that in the 1st one, the same notes are played twice, but with different fingers. A teacher friend who came from Belarus sent me some pages from a beginner book from Russia, with little birdies and such, and it was also full of shifts and harmonics. This made a lot of sense to me. I had gotten one Geringas exercise, and when I reviewed it, it was the only one where my hand wasn't stiff. That's why I looked further. This thing totally circumvents the "finger = note" problem, and fosters "a particular spot = note" which is what we want.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/lnbm48vkmaaa5sb/Scan_20201013.jpg?dl=0

Re: 'D' Position
dantheman1983 #3035315 10/13/20 06:47 PM
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The position thing for piano is a crutch, and it is also a way to "advance fast to playing music", possibly at the expense of getting familiar with the keyboard and notes. It may also short circuit reading. If your hand is glued to one spot, and your fingers are playing a total of 5 notes going up and down, you might get a sense of intervallic. So maybe some element of reading may be in there. But if you've learned that G = 5 (RH) it's going to be weird when G = 1 (G major, G position), or G = 4 (D position) or G = 2 (F position). How about G = G, and it's the lower of the two white keys over where the 3 black keys gather to chat as best friends?

Re: 'D' Position
dantheman1983 #3035371 10/13/20 10:00 PM
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The 5-finger positions are supposed to teach intervallic reading and transposition. The point is to keep moving the students around the keyboard so they are not stuck in any one particular position for a long time. This is in response to the older, middle-C approach books.

You're not really reading notes, yet, at this stage of learning. You read the first note in each hand, and then from there you read intervals.

It only becomes a "crutch" when the teacher doesn't understand the underlying pedagogy.


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Re: 'D' Position
dantheman1983 #3035386 10/13/20 11:27 PM
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AZNpiano that makes sense - i.e. attached to a methodology / approach.

Re: 'D' Position
keystring #3035397 10/14/20 12:29 AM
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Originally Posted by keystring
AZNpiano that makes sense - i.e. attached to a methodology / approach.

The OP says he is using the Simply Piano app. I have no idea what Simply Piano is or does. I'm assuming that whoever put the curriculum together is at least familiar enough with modern piano pedagogy.

Also, the OP states that he plays guitar. This might cause some confusion because the word "position" means something else entirely for stringed instruments. Also, he will have already known how to read the treble clef, which sort of defeats the purpose of teaching the intervallic way.


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Re: 'D' Position
dantheman1983 #3036609 10/17/20 10:56 AM
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I used the Simply Piano app to start out before I got a teacher. FloRi89 has it right, it tries to be a method book in app form. The later lessons (which it seems OP is not there yet) have decoupled the hand position to note mapping. If you follow the instruction portion it teaches you when to cross over/under the thumb but the pieces are structured to stay within the fingering you have been taught. The app itself has many positives, but also quite a few negatives. I am not a piano teacher so I can't comment of the effectiveness of the SP method, only that it does have one. I consider it a fine start for someone to see if they enjoy playing.

Re: 'D' Position
offkey #3038028 10/21/20 12:33 PM
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Originally Posted by offkey
I used the Simply Piano app to start out before I got a teacher. FloRi89 has it right, it tries to be a method book in app form. The later lessons (which it seems OP is not there yet) have decoupled the hand position to note mapping. If you follow the instruction portion it teaches you when to cross over/under the thumb but the pieces are structured to stay within the fingering you have been taught. The app itself has many positives, but also quite a few negatives. I am not a piano teacher so I can't comment of the effectiveness of the SP method, only that it does have one. I consider it a fine start for someone to see if they enjoy playing.
Thanks that is interesting from someone who started with the app.
Simply Piano definitely gave me a start and show that I enjoy ‘playing’,
correct method or not.
I have the Alfred basic book now, just brought new Roland FP10, nice heavy
realistic feeling keys. Such an upgrade to my basic Yamaha np12.
Going to make a fresh start and try using the books and trial piano marvel.
Will still dip into SP for some fun as still have 2 months subscription

Re: 'D' Position
dantheman1983 #3038296 10/22/20 12:02 PM
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The 'Sheet Music Beta' within the app gives quite a bit of sheet music at various levels. It's nice you can preview what it sounds like before diving in. I switched to that before fully moving away from the app. I decided I liked playing sheet music from actual paper so I would screen shot then print the scores.

Without a teacher, I find the most difficult part is choosing music of an appropriate difficulty to grow yet not get frustrated. It's good you plan to use a method book to continue on.

Re: 'D' Position
offkey #3038376 10/22/20 03:44 PM
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Originally Posted by offkey
The 'Sheet Music Beta' within the app gives quite a bit of sheet music at various levels. It's nice you can preview what it sounds like before diving in. I switched to that before fully moving away from the app. I decided I liked playing sheet music from actual paper so I would screen shot then print the scores.

Without a teacher, I find the most difficult part is choosing music of an appropriate difficulty to grow yet not get frustrated. It's good you plan to use a method book to continue on.

Yes that’s a good point about the sheet music section.
I used the iphone version for a long time and it’s not on that
so when switching to ipad it was a nice surprise.
I think I’ll use that section rather than the courses until it runs out
& nice idea about the screen shots, can take away from favourite pieces

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