2017 was our 20th year online!

Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 3 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Shop our online store for music lovers
SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Wessell Nickel & Gross
PianoForAll
(ad)
Best of Piano Buyer
 Best of Piano Buyer
(ad)
Faust Harrison Pianos
Faust Harrison 100+ Steinway pianos
Who's Online Now
40 members (crooow, clothearednincompo, anotherscott, Colin Miles, Damyan, ejlamas, Beowulf, 12 invisible), 477 guests, and 481 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
dim 7 question
#3033556 10/08/20 10:23 PM
Joined: Aug 2020
Posts: 2
D
Junior Member
OP Offline
Junior Member
D
Joined: Aug 2020
Posts: 2
Trying to understand what this means in Alfred's Basic Adult Book 3 p 35. Key is B minor. "Note the spelling of the diminished 7th chord D E# G# B. This means it is an inversion of E#dim7. The correct spelling of any dim7 in root position skips one letter of the musical alphabet between each note." Do you think it's talking about the name of the chord, the name of the 2nd note as E# instead of F natural? Or something else?


Self-taught adult beginner. Started during covid. Alfred's Basic Adult Piano Course, Tim Richards Improvising Blues Piano, etc.
(ad)
Piano & Music Accessories
piano accessories music gifts tuning and moving equipment
Re: dim 7 question
DThompson55 #3033568 10/08/20 11:40 PM
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 3,952
E
3000 Post Club Member
Offline
3000 Post Club Member
E
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 3,952
Welcome to the forum


I can't find how you got your info as my Alfred book 3 page 35 seems different, but the concept is poorly explained in my version as it must be in yours. For example in the B minor scale the diminished 7th chord starts on the 7th degree of the scale which in this case is A# (followed by C#E & G#). As a rule (and it might be different elsewhere) I am taught that we do not refer to this chord as an A# diminished 7th but rather the diminished seventh chord of B minor.

If you have the Alfred scale book this is shown better.

There are no inversions of diminished 7th chords, as by changing the first note, you are referring to a different scale. Using the above (the first letter is the 7th degree of a scale) the letters you have given (D E# G# B) starting with a D are close, but not correct for the diminished 7th of either D# minor or Eb minor. Confusing isn't it?

Last edited by earlofmar; 10/08/20 11:44 PM.

Following Trying to follow the Ling Ling 40 hour method

Kawai K8 & Kawai Novus NV10


13x[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
Re: dim 7 question
DThompson55 #3033570 10/08/20 11:54 PM
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 3,952
E
3000 Post Club Member
Offline
3000 Post Club Member
E
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 3,952
to clarify, what my Alfred book 3 page 35 shows is a B Diminished 7th but using notes B, D F & Ab (not E# &G#). So I think this is what you are really referring to. While this is referred to as a B diminished 7th, it is formed from the notes of a C minor scale and so my books refer to it as the diminished 7th of the C minor scale.

It will be interesting to hear what others are taught on how to refer to these chords.

Last edited by earlofmar; 10/08/20 11:55 PM.

Following Trying to follow the Ling Ling 40 hour method

Kawai K8 & Kawai Novus NV10


13x[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
Re: dim 7 question
DThompson55 #3033586 10/09/20 01:18 AM
Joined: May 2019
Posts: 246
N
Nip Offline
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
N
Joined: May 2019
Posts: 246
My book of theory says about Dim chord

Cdim - 1 b3 b5
Cdim-7 - 1 b3 b5 bb7 - so double flat of 7th in scale
Cm7b5 - 1 b3 b5 b7 - often confused with dim-7, single flat 7

Last edited by Nip; 10/09/20 01:27 AM.

Kawai MP7SE - Hammond XK3c - Synthesizers
Re: dim 7 question
DThompson55 #3033637 10/09/20 05:09 AM
Joined: Feb 2019
Posts: 1,347
S
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
S
Joined: Feb 2019
Posts: 1,347
Originally Posted by DThompson55
Trying to understand what this means in Alfred's Basic Adult Book 3 p 35. Key is B minor. "Note the spelling of the diminished 7th chord D E# G# B. This means it is an inversion of E#dim7. The correct spelling of any dim7 in root position skips one letter of the musical alphabet between each note." Do you think it's talking about the name of the chord, the name of the 2nd note as E# instead of F natural? Or something else?

What they mean is simply that the actuals chord is E# G# B D, but written in its third inversion. Their trick to remember that the speeling is correct is to say that you skip one letter of the alphabet. I never used that trick and I dont think its a good idea. Better to think of a diminished chord as a stack of minor thirds. I am not sure why they use the E# chord as an example in B minor; the raised IV degree used to build a diminished 7th is an altered chord that is commonly used to embellish the I degree, but can also be used to approach the dominant of B, ie F sharp.

Re: dim 7 question
DThompson55 #3033638 10/09/20 05:11 AM
Joined: May 2016
Posts: 1,856
I
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
I
Joined: May 2016
Posts: 1,856
I have no copy of Alfred book 3, so it's only my guess.

I think on that page of your edition there is a D E# G# B chord printed somewhere and the author/editor notifies reader that this is the inversion of E#dim7 and that the root form of that chord is E# G# B D, because "the correct spelling of any dim7 in root position skips one letter of the musical alphabet between each note": E f G a B c D. This remark doesn't relate to B minor key or Bdim7 chord.


Edit: Sidokar wins the race. smile

Last edited by Iaroslav Vasiliev; 10/09/20 05:17 AM.
Re: dim 7 question
DThompson55 #3033729 10/09/20 08:46 AM
Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 2,329
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 2,329
I don't see the same on page 35. RCM talks about diminished 7th chords in the context of a leading tone in minor keys. The below is from the RCM theory book.

"The leading tone triad is a diminished triad and when a 7th is added to it, the resulting 7th chord contains two tritones. The tension created by the leading-tone diminished 7th chord is often resolved by a consonant chord such as a tonic". "This chord is amongst the most intense and expressive sounds in tonal music and is often used to create dramatic effects"

If you were asked to play the leading tone diminished 7th of say D minor, you would start on C#.

Last edited by bSharp(C)yclist; 10/09/20 08:46 AM.

♯ ♮ ♭ ø ° Δ ♩ ♪ ♫ ♬
Yamaha C3X
YouTube
[Linked Image]
Re: dim 7 question
DThompson55 #3033770 10/09/20 10:04 AM
Joined: Aug 2020
Posts: 2
D
Junior Member
OP Offline
Junior Member
D
Joined: Aug 2020
Posts: 2
Got it! Glad I asked!


Self-taught adult beginner. Started during covid. Alfred's Basic Adult Piano Course, Tim Richards Improvising Blues Piano, etc.
Re: dim 7 question
Iaroslav Vasiliev #3034016 10/10/20 02:57 AM
Joined: Feb 2019
Posts: 1,347
S
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
S
Joined: Feb 2019
Posts: 1,347
Originally Posted by Iaroslav Vasiliev
Edit: Sidokar wins the race. smile

You will get me next time !

Re: dim 7 question
bSharp(C)yclist #3034025 10/10/20 03:56 AM
Joined: Feb 2019
Posts: 1,347
S
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
S
Joined: Feb 2019
Posts: 1,347
Originally Posted by bSharp(C)yclist
If you were asked to play the leading tone diminished 7th of say D minor, you would start on C#.

It is one of the usage of the diminished chord. In fact you can create a diminished chord on any note of the scale or even on any chromatically altered degree. By using inversion and enharmony that can lead to a variety of resolution, using the chord as embellishment or secondary dominant or embellishment of a secondary dominant. For example the diminished chord on sharp IV in various inversions can resolve on I or I6, cadential 6.4, V, v, ....

Re: dim 7 question
DThompson55 #3034098 10/10/20 10:30 AM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 18,155
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 18,155
I didn't know whether to get into a larger kettle of fish. I am glad to have been shown alternative views. Here goes:

In traditional theory, the dim7 is shown as stacked thirds, as "root position". BDFAb is the easiest since BDF (the viio of C major) is all white keys - the Ab is no longer part of the C major scale or key, but easy to hold on to. As someone said, you have a series of m3's. On the piano, if you play an m3, there are always two unplayed piano keys in between - a visual way of seeing m3 - and it always involves 4 semitones (B, C, C#, D). ...... If you play an "inversion" .... DFAbB (Bdim7/D) ... your notation will show one aug2 - a 2nd, line then space, or space then line .... but your piano will show a smooth continuation of these m3's (sometimes spelled aug2). Your 4 semitones are always there.

Let's take that same BDFAb, which in this case is sort of "built on B", with skipped letter names, which show up as notes on adjacent lines or spaces.

What if I build a dim7 on D? I'll have D F Ab Cb. If you want to see it as being built on the "leading tone" of a key as per bSharp(C)yclist - D is the leading tone of Eb major. Not that it matters here. What if I invert this Ddim7 with the Cb on the bottom? CbDFAb or Ddim7/Cb? Play it on the piano. You get the same notes as our Bdim7 -- only that the B is now spelled Cb.

You can do this with the other two notes of your Bdim7. How about G# B D F? (Your Ab is now G# - same piano key). Its "inversion" BDFG# is the same as our Bdim7.

----------------
So - an entirely different way of viewing a Dim7.

You have a series of "stacked m3's" which you can see on the piano - which in notation might show up as an aug2 (always only one) - If you stack one more m3 or "m3" (aug2) you're back at your starting note. It's a kind of "infinite stacking of m3's" and the interval (real) never changes in "inversions".

At the piano, build successive dim3's, observing the piano keys you use. Bdim7, Cdim7, C#dim7 ..... If you go any further than that, you'll be at D dim7, which uses the same piano keys as our Bdim7 does. So in essence, "There are only 3 dim7's - but you have numerous spellings for them." I gave the reason for the spellings in the first part, in the inversions.

This is another, more fluid or amoeba-like way of seeing the dim7. Which spelling to choose - depends on function and context. This moves into the conversation between Sidokar and bSharp(C)yclist (he of the hard-to-spell name wink ).

----------------
Some other for-nerds cool aspects of the dim7:

- It contains two tritones. (In B dim7, that's BF and DAb)
- Bdim could be seen as the top part of G7 (GBDF) ..... Bdim7 could be seen as the top part of G7b9 (GBDFAb)

If at the piano you lower any of the four notes of a Bdim7, you end up with a V7. Example: BDFAb - lower B to Bb - you get Bb7. For some you may have to spell the letters enharmonically - G# for Ab, etc. - but at the piano you'll hear a V7 in some inversion. And of course as soon as you have a V7, you can do V7-I, or V7-vi etc. if you have some theory or feel for progressions.

I sort of like adding the amoeba view of the dim7, as will as the traditional stacked third way.

Re: dim 7 question
keystring #3034120 10/10/20 11:33 AM
Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 2,329
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 2,329
Originally Posted by keystring
and bSharp(C)yclist (he of the hard-to-spell name wink ).

I should just change my name to bSharp. I haven't cycled for a year now since moving in with my girlfriend. I think we'll just sell our bikes and get electric bikes instead ;0


♯ ♮ ♭ ø ° Δ ♩ ♪ ♫ ♬
Yamaha C3X
YouTube
[Linked Image]
Re: dim 7 question
bSharp(C)yclist #3034131 10/10/20 11:56 AM
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 2,795
Gold Subscriber
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
Gold Subscriber
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 2,795
Originally Posted by bSharp(C)yclist
Originally Posted by keystring
and bSharp(C)yclist (he of the hard-to-spell name wink ).

I should just change my name to bSharp. I haven't cycled for a year now since moving in with my girlfriend. I think we'll just sell our bikes and get electric bikes instead ;0
eLectric(C)yclist


[Linked Image]
Yamaha C3X
In summer, the song sings itself. --William Carlos Williams


Moderated by  BB Player 

Link Copied to Clipboard
(ad)
Pianoteq
Steinway Spiro Layering
(ad)
PianoDisc

PianoDisc
(ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad)
Mason & Hamlin Pianos
(ad) SWEETWATER Cyber Sale
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Roland LX706 Review
by Colin Miles - 12/04/20 06:41 AM
Best Headphones for Digital Piano - your experience
by lukasz-zsakul - 12/04/20 05:10 AM
Is the Hailun 218 solid spruce?
by Sonepica - 12/04/20 04:55 AM
Schiff talked about Bartók's style of playing
by symphonicdance - 12/04/20 01:46 AM
Download Sheet Music
Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads
Forum Statistics
Forums41
Topics203,254
Posts3,030,353
Members99,467
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Please Support Our Advertisers


Faust Harrison 100+ Steinways

Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver

 Best of Piano Buyer

PianoTeq Bechstein
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads



 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter |


copyright 1997 - 2020 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.4