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Re: Grade 8 from scratch in one year
ranjit #3032585 10/06/20 08:48 AM
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Originally Posted by ranjit
Originally Posted by sinophilia
I also wonder how can someone find 8 or even more hours a day to devote to a single task. It's not even fun anymore! Single-mindedness to the point of obsession is often behind great achievements, but while I can see the value of devoting one's life to physics or medicine, what's the point of just learning the piano quicker than others?
Playing scales for 8 hours a day doesn't really make sense. But supposing that the practice is spread out over a wide variety of tasks, then it makes sense. You could devote some time in a day for sight reading, practicing pieces, memorizing parts of pieces, ear training, transcribing, playing some popular music, improvising, technical exercises, critical listening and score reading, etc. It usually doesn't make much sense to do so at a beginner level, but experts can practice that long effectively for a few days. It's hard to think of it as a long term plan however -- that looks like a recipe for burnout.
But for the beginner it would need to be long term (more than a few days--more like a year or two as in the OP's title for the thread). As a long term plan (which the beginner would need it to be) it requires that one has either someone else to support them, they have income from an inheritance, or they are retired and living off saved income. And someone else is doing all the daily living maintenance such as cooking, cleaning, child care, etc.

The expert, who could practice effectively for eight hours at a time, generally does not need to do so (except in an emergency or a case of bad planning smile ) and when they practice, they concentrate on only a few things--they don't need to work on all of those tasks a beginner needs to work on (practicing sight reading, ear training, transcribing, playing popular music, for example).


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Re: Grade 8 from scratch in one year
bennevis #3032598 10/06/20 09:14 AM
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Originally Posted by bennevis
I don't have a high regard of this bernhard (who apparently cultivated a cult following in another forum) .....
To have any kind of regard for a person, you first have to know that person, what they do or did, etc. I have a feeling that you have read what people have said about him. The "cult" thing is a turn-off, and a low impression from all that is understandable. I'd be the same. But none of that is the teacher. I'm lucky enough to have had a series of personal exchanges with him, and gained a high respect. What you read is not representative. You'd probably come away with respect too. One reason he stepped away was seeing the impossibility of transmitting in forums what must be carefully taught in regular personal lessons. A distortion happens.

Originally Posted by dongperson
If I remember correctly, Bernhardt was teaching very young students who started off taking lessons five days per week. Did I misremember this?

I do remember something in that forum, when I first looked him up due to all the references, talking about the ideal of daily teaching. It does make sense, since esp. at the beginning stage habits are formed in each practice session, so that the next lesson consists in part of undoing what got formed wrongly - it would go much faster if there was daily supervision. Indeed, if you read Czerny's "letters to a young lady", this young aristocrat only practised under the daily supervision of her tutor - that's how it was done once upon a time.

He did not only have young students. He shared with me a book he compiled for a student who was at the onset of senility, so that he had trouble remembering, and so put together the book as a memnonic. This would have been quite an elderly student.

While on this tangent: When a teacher teaches, he reaches into his grabbag of all his knowledge and experience, to teach the student in front of him, whom he has been teaching for months and years - so he knows where this student is, in this moment, within that timeline. A dozen things may go into what is taught in this or that instant, and they all work together. As he explained it: in putting this in writing in a forum, the teacher has to dismantle this package, lay it out dissembled - the student must know to reassemble it as a whole - not to take things literally or as separate instructions, otherwise there is a problem. That is what happened, and why what is written, and the cult thing too, becomes "not representative".

Re: Grade 8 from scratch in one year
thomascarding #3032610 10/06/20 10:07 AM
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Fwiw, I'm not a fan of "grade 8 from scratch in 1 (or 2) years". When I started my first ever lessons, I was basically put on that kind of path, and was ill at ease by the time I was congratulated when I was passed on to yet another grade, still in my first year. At one point my unease was too great, I said I felt I was missing something, and my perplexed teacher went back at my request, and we skimmed through even faster. Later when I finally knew enough about music learning (though still not much) he had said "One can learn to play even grade 8 material primitively." With an instrument that was highly difficult technically, together with a badly made instrument, this led to collapse. Otherwise it might just have led to crude playing. After all, when I was a self-taught child I played material which later on I found out was "advanced" - don't ask how I played it, though - with rushed abandon probably.

I do agree with Ranjit about ways of practising, on one's own (or even with a teacher), with the degree of care etc. he sets out. We have a lot of good resources - which can be weeded out from the plethora of bad ones - to work with. In fact, had these things been available then, I might not have fallen into the hole that I fell into while under that kind of instruction. It's not a matter of producing pieces at ever higher grade level labels, but learning to play, with all the skills and knowledge attached to that.

Re: Grade 8 from scratch in one year
ranjit #3032651 10/06/20 11:25 AM
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It's probably worth to remember that there are neurological limits of what can be learned in one day. If you reach that limit, all the time after it will be spent in vain. Unfortunately it seems that no scientific research concerning these limits in relation to piano exists, so we don't know how to calculate the amount of time exactly, but if I had a choice of working a little less, knowing that all my practice is efficient, versus working more and probably wasting time, I would definitely choose to work less.

If you feel significant regress compared to the end of your previous practice day, it usually means that you spent too much time on it the previous day, more than necessary, and you exceeded the limit.

That said, I've never met recommendation for beginners or intermediate students, even for those aspiring for a professional career, to play more than 3 hours a day. I think it may be considered the maximum at those stages. Most teachers also recommend to split daily practice into several sessions and to end each session as soon as student starts to loose focus, so the optimum practice time may vary.

It concerns other piano-related activities as well, I'm sure that spending more than 20-25 minutes a day on ear training is not efficient, and spending more than 30-40 minutes a day on theory is also not efficient.

Re: Grade 8 from scratch in one year
Iaroslav Vasiliev #3032669 10/06/20 12:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Iaroslav Vasiliev
I'm sure that spending more than 20-25 minutes a day on ear training is not efficient, and spending more than 30-40 minutes a day on theory is also not efficient.
I've noticed that many adult students seem obsessed by spending lots of time on theory, as if it will automatically improve one's piano playing. Well, it doesn't. whistle

As for ear training, I also can't understand why anyone would want to sit at a computer and listen to random noises generated by a computer. Simply - listen lots, and with intent. By that, I mean that if you decide to listen to a pop song, discern the notes in relation to the scale - use the solfege do-re-mi system with moveable 'do', and thereby know what the notes are in the scale (N.B. it doesn't matter what key the song is in - you need to be able to - and should - know, which is the tonic note of the song, and sing it aloud.) From there, you will know the intervals between the notes of the melody of that song. And then, play the melody on the piano by ear - in C major, if you wish. (That was what I did as a kid - play all pop songs by ear in C major, or A minor if in a minor key. I never counted that as 'practice time'.)

Going a step further - from melody and intervals to harmony - listen intently to the chords. Common chord progressions are common in all music, and every budding musician should be able to recognize them whenever they occur, in any context. Therefore, every time you listen to a simple song (of course I exclude the likes of Berg et al smirk ), try to hear the harmony being used. From there, you can go on to harmonize tunes yourself.

And so on.

And all of that without taking a minute away from actual, proper practicing on the piano.


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Re: Grade 8 from scratch in one year
Iaroslav Vasiliev #3032686 10/06/20 12:42 PM
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It's not a race ...

I went back to servicing Swimming Pools of all things, when I first came to a new town a couple of years ago. I remembered from my College years that I quite enjoyed it at the time. The money wasn't great but on a beautiful day it was like Nirvana.

That was quickly all stripped away though, as the younger Gent. I was working with was all about efficiency and getting home an hour earlier for the day.

So, to shave off some time, he was always on my back, completely took anything I liked about the job away. I soon hated it ... and I am outta here.

To me efficiency, isn't always worth it.

I like that line from the Chevy Chase movie ... I think it's European Vacation. He gets pulled over for speeding and the Policeman in his broken English says ... "Where's da fire?"

Re: Grade 8 from scratch in one year
Iaroslav Vasiliev #3032946 10/07/20 03:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Stubbie
But for the beginner it would need to be long term (more than a few days--more like a year or two as in the OP's title for the thread). As a long term plan (which the beginner would need it to be) it requires that one has either someone else to support them, they have income from an inheritance, or they are retired and living off saved income.
I think 4-6 hours a day with a few break days thrown in is possible, and a talented student with that level of dedication will probably get to grade 8 in 1-2 years if s/he really wants to. I've seen a few examples of such people on forums.

Originally Posted by keystring
Fwiw, I'm not a fan of "grade 8 from scratch in 1 (or 2) years". When I started my first ever lessons, I was basically put on that kind of path, and was ill at ease by the time I was congratulated when I was passed on to yet another grade, still in my first year. At one point my unease was too great, I said I felt I was missing something, and my perplexed teacher went back at my request, and we skimmed through even faster.
Honestly, I feel like doing multiple grade exams a year is pointless. You only actually have to give grade 5 and grade 8 ABRSM. I would imagine that someone on that kind of path would just give those two exams, and be done with it. In my experience, I didn't really care about grades -- I just picked pieces which I thought might be achievable, and saw if I could manage them. The grade system is a kind of bottom-up approach. There are other ways to go about it imo. I think the way it usually works is by achieving a higher level of "understanding" quicker. So, if you're learning scales, you don't think -- okay, grade 1 scales are C major and G major, at 60 bpm. Instead, you learn all of them at once, and try to get the hand motions perfect. Once you do that, you can probably play the scales in a bunch of different configurations at 100 bpm -- it's not about the speed, it's the fact that you have *got it*. So you take the same amount of time, but learn the concept to a much deeper level.

Originally Posted by Iaroslav Vasiliev
It's probably worth to remember that there are neurological limits of what can be learned in one day. If you reach that limit, all the time after it will be spent in vain. Unfortunately it seems that no scientific research concerning these limits in relation to piano exists, so we don't know how to calculate the amount of time exactly, but if I had a choice of working a little less, knowing that all my practice is efficient, versus working more and probably wasting time, I would definitely choose to work less.
I just wanted to point out that this is basically conjecture. Yes, it is trivially true that there will be some kind of upper bound on the amount that can be learned in one day. But there is no real way to figure out what that limit is, and I can wager that there isn't a consensus even among neuroscientists as to what that is. So, your argument regarding the optimal amount of time it takes to do something in a day has nothing to do with science per se, it is purely from your experience, and highly debatable.

Originally Posted by Iaroslav Vasiliev
If you feel significant regress compared to the end of your previous practice day, it usually means that you spent too much time on it the previous day, more than necessary, and you exceeded the limit.
I think regress has to do more with the quality of practice than the actual time spent. Basically, when you're practicing, you want to get it right as much as possible, for which you need to be focused. There was a study on conservatory students where they asked them to learn a snippet of music and play it the next day. The amount of time spent didn't really matter that much. However, they found that the relative number of times when they played it correct, and certain practice strategies basically accounted for most of the difference.

Originally Posted by Iaroslav Vasiliev
It concerns other piano-related activities as well, I'm sure that spending more than 20-25 minutes a day on ear training is not efficient, and spending more than 30-40 minutes a day on theory is also not efficient.
Ear training maybe, but I have always found that I prefer to work on theory for a solid block of several hours. The idea is basically to understand it once, and get it right. (What exactly do you mean by working on theory?) Also, I think that you can work on transcription for a longer time (I'm sure professional transcribers as well as many jazz musicians spend hours a day listening to recordings and figuring them out), and that can also be considered a form of ear training.

Re: Grade 8 from scratch in one year
ranjit #3033018 10/07/20 08:15 AM
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Originally Posted by ranjit
Playing scales for 8 hours a day doesn't really make sense. But supposing that the practice is spread out over a wide variety of tasks, then it makes sense. You could devote some time in a day for sight reading, practicing pieces, memorizing parts of pieces, ear training, transcribing, playing some popular music, improvising, technical exercises, critical listening and score reading, etc. It usually doesn't make much sense to do so at a beginner level, but experts can practice that long effectively for a few days. It's hard to think of it as a long term plan however -- that looks like a recipe for burnout.

What I meant was - how can someone find 8 hours a day for piano practice?!? Adults have jobs, families, friends, pets, houses to tend to, hobbies... But to be honest, even if I didn't need to work for a living or I didn't have to care about family, cats, garden etc. I would choose to do many different things with my time, play the piano, yes, but also read, write, travel, workout, learn new languages, and why not, just have fun! Time goes by very quickly, you know. I'm 45 and sometimes I'm not completely sure how that happened.

Re: Grade 8 from scratch in one year
ranjit #3033028 10/07/20 09:04 AM
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Originally Posted by ranjit
Originally Posted by Iaroslav Vasiliev
It's probably worth to remember that there are neurological limits of what can be learned in one day. If you reach that limit, all the time after it will be spent in vain. Unfortunately it seems that no scientific research concerning these limits in relation to piano exists, so we don't know how to calculate the amount of time exactly, but if I had a choice of working a little less, knowing that all my practice is efficient, versus working more and probably wasting time, I would definitely choose to work less.
I just wanted to point out that this is basically conjecture. Yes, it is trivially true that there will be some kind of upper bound on the amount that can be learned in one day. But there is no real way to figure out what that limit is, and I can wager that there isn't a consensus even among neuroscientists as to what that is. So, your argument regarding the optimal amount of time it takes to do something in a day has nothing to do with science per se, it is purely from your experience, and highly debatable.

ranjit, I'm sorry to say it, but your answer is completely uneducated. Learning to play the piano is a form of motor learning, and motor learning has been one of the focus points of science in recent decades. It's true that most of research is devoted to sports and rehabilitation and not to piano playing, but the amount of literature is big and growing, and it includes papers which focus on the best ways of exercising, the optimal amount of exercising per day and the degree of skill retention the next day. This degree of skill retention can be easily measured, and it determines the limit of what can be learned in one day using a chosen exercise regimen. It's not just a speculation, it's a thing that both neuroscience and pedagogy deal with. And if you wonder about the reasons behind these daily limits, you may also google for neuroscience of sleep and the role of sleep in consolidation of skills and memories.
You said you're good at self-education, please, do your homework. wink

Originally Posted by ranjit
What exactly do you mean by working on theory?
I mean training of theoretical elements recognition in music. Just like motor learning and ear training, this kind of training has a limit on the next day skill retention and requires sleep.


To imagine a limit properly you may think of practicing a scale. Suppose today you start at speed X and by practicing it very hard and very long you reach speed X+3n, but when you start to play it tomorrow you can only play it at speed X+1n. This regression shows that some work was done excessively.

On the other hand, sometimes there is a situation when you reach only X+1n speed on one day and on the next day you reach, say, X+1.5n speed right at the start. I guess we all know this wonderful feeling. It shows that the amount of practice the day before was optimum.

Re: Grade 8 from scratch in one year
ranjit #3033032 10/07/20 09:37 AM
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Originally Posted by ranjit
Originally Posted by Stubbie
But for the beginner it would need to be long term (more than a few days--more like a year or two as in the OP's title for the thread). As a long term plan (which the beginner would need it to be) it requires that one has either someone else to support them, they have income from an inheritance, or they are retired and living off saved income.
I think 4-6 hours a day with a few break days thrown in is possible, and a talented student with that level of dedication will probably get to grade 8 in 1-2 years if s/he really wants to. I've seen a few examples of such people on forums.
You have conveniently elided over how your beginner is going to support "4-6 hours a day" for 1-2 years. Who earns the income to pay the rent? Who does the laundry and prepares meals and cleans up afterwards?

If you are writing purely hypothetically (or conjecturing), then go ahead--conjecture away.


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Re: Grade 8 from scratch in one year
thomascarding #3033034 10/07/20 09:45 AM
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I would like to see one example where a talented beginner has done this in 4-6 hrs per day. One example provided early was of a teenager who later majored in music. What was initially omitted in the post was he practiced 8- 12 hrs per day and had an excellent teacher.

Essential components of examples should not be omitted.


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Re: Grade 8 from scratch in one year
dogperson #3033204 10/07/20 05:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Iaroslav Vasiliev
ranjit, I'm sorry to say it, but your answer is completely uneducated. Learning to play the piano is a form of motor learning, and motor learning has been one of the focus points of science in recent decades. It's true that most of research is devoted to sports and rehabilitation and not to piano playing, but the amount of literature is big and growing, and it includes papers which focus on the best ways of exercising, the optimal amount of exercising per day and the degree of skill retention the next day. This degree of skill retention can be easily measured, and it determines the limit of what can be learned in one day using a chosen exercise regimen. It's not just a speculation, it's a thing that both neuroscience and pedagogy deal with.
Could you link specific papers? As it stands, it's not clear whatever research you've read applies to the piano. Again, I never denied that sleep consolidates memory, and there is a limited amount of information you can theoretically learn in a given time frame (this much is obvious), but your claims regarding what that limit is in a day are borne out of experience, and not neuroscience.

Originally Posted by Iaroslav Vasiliev
And if you wonder about the reasons behind these daily limits, you may also google for neuroscience of sleep and the role of sleep in consolidation of skills and memories.
You said you're good at self-education, please, do your homework. wink
Of course I am well aware of the role sleep plays in memory consolidation. My point is that it's not clear what the optimal amount of practicing is or whetehr your intuitive feeling that you're "done for the day" means that you've hit your theoretical limit for learning for that day. So the time durations you quote are purely subjective.

Originally Posted by ranjit
What exactly do you mean by working on theory?
I mean training of theoretical elements recognition in music. Just like motor learning and ear training, this kind of training has a limit on the next day skill retention and requires sleep.
[/quote]
Do you mean stuff like knowing subdominant, dominant functions, etc. and being able to spot them in context? I'm not really sure about that, from my personal experience, one extended session works quite well if you need to understand and apply a bunch of rules. You just need them committed to memory in a sense. Maybe I'm just weird that way, but I've found extended sessions to work very well with learning any kind of music theory (or pretty much any kind of theory in general). This is because after a while you get into a state of focus or immersion which allows you to make connections and see the "bigger picture". With a small session, you are limited to seeing only a small portion of the whole, and that limits your ability to grasp the concept as a whole, which speeds up the learning process.

Originally Posted by Stubbie
[quote=ranjit][quote=Stubbie]
You have conveniently elided over how your beginner is going to support "4-6 hours a day" for 1-2 years. Who earns the income to pay the rent? Who does the laundry and prepares meals and cleans up afterwards?
This situation happens a lot when a beginner starts late in high school/early on in college or takes a gap year somewhere, say, before applying to a conservatory program. I'm at home right now (WFH), and I do often practice for that amount of time. Office work is over by 6 or so, and I often practice from 9pm-2am or something similar. So the hours are there, it's a question of whether it's actually possible to use them. Still figuring that one out myself! :P


Originally Posted by dogperson
I would like to see one example where a talented beginner has done this in 4-6 hrs per day. One example provided early was of a teenager who later majored in music. What was initially omitted in the post was he practiced 8- 12 hrs per day and had an excellent teacher.

Essential components of examples should not be omitted.
Yes, I agree with you that having an actual example of someone would be great; however, no one comes to mind at the moment. I also gave a time frame of 1-2 years, not 1 year. Given the fact that practicing 8-12 hours in a day is probably inefficient (though it's very hard to say in a particular case), it may be possible to achieve the same amount of improvement in 4-6 hours (admittedly, conjecture on my part, but not without basis: I'm drawing from studies which try and find the point of diminishing returns). Also, since the guy got there with 8-12 hours daily practice over one year, it makes sense that 4-6 hours over two years should do the trick! smile

Re: Grade 8 from scratch in one year
dogperson #3033205 10/07/20 05:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Iaroslav Vasiliev
ranjit, I'm sorry to say it, but your answer is completely uneducated. Learning to play the piano is a form of motor learning, and motor learning has been one of the focus points of science in recent decades. It's true that most of research is devoted to sports and rehabilitation and not to piano playing, but the amount of literature is big and growing, and it includes papers which focus on the best ways of exercising, the optimal amount of exercising per day and the degree of skill retention the next day. This degree of skill retention can be easily measured, and it determines the limit of what can be learned in one day using a chosen exercise regimen. It's not just a speculation, it's a thing that both neuroscience and pedagogy deal with.
Could you link specific papers? As it stands, it's not clear whatever research you've read applies to the piano. Again, I never denied that sleep consolidates memory, and there is a limited amount of information you can theoretically learn in a given time frame (this much is obvious), but your claims regarding what that limit is in a day are borne out of experience, and not neuroscience.

Originally Posted by Iaroslav Vasiliev
And if you wonder about the reasons behind these daily limits, you may also google for neuroscience of sleep and the role of sleep in consolidation of skills and memories.
You said you're good at self-education, please, do your homework. wink
Of course I am well aware of the role sleep plays in memory consolidation. My point is that it's not clear what the optimal amount of practicing is or whetehr your intuitive feeling that you're "done for the day" means that you've hit your theoretical limit for learning for that day. So the time durations you quote are purely subjective.

Originally Posted by ranjit
What exactly do you mean by working on theory?
I mean training of theoretical elements recognition in music. Just like motor learning and ear training, this kind of training has a limit on the next day skill retention and requires sleep.
[/quote]
Do you mean stuff like knowing subdominant, dominant functions, etc. and being able to spot them in context? I'm not really sure about that, from my personal experience, one extended session works quite well if you need to understand and apply a bunch of rules. You just need them committed to memory in a sense. Maybe I'm just weird that way, but I've found extended sessions to work very well with learning any kind of music theory (or pretty much any kind of theory in general). This is because after a while you get into a state of focus or immersion which allows you to make connections and see the "bigger picture". With a small session, you are limited to seeing only a small portion of the whole, and that limits your ability to grasp the concept as a whole, which speeds up the learning process.

Originally Posted by Stubbie
[quote=ranjit][quote=Stubbie]
You have conveniently elided over how your beginner is going to support "4-6 hours a day" for 1-2 years. Who earns the income to pay the rent? Who does the laundry and prepares meals and cleans up afterwards?
This situation happens a lot when a beginner starts late in high school/early on in college or takes a gap year somewhere, say, before applying to a conservatory program. I'm at home right now (WFH), and I do often practice for that amount of time. Office work is over by 6 or so, and I often practice from 9pm-2am or something similar. So the hours are there, it's a question of whether it's actually possible to use them. Still figuring that one out myself! :P


Originally Posted by dogperson
I would like to see one example where a talented beginner has done this in 4-6 hrs per day. One example provided early was of a teenager who later majored in music. What was initially omitted in the post was he practiced 8- 12 hrs per day and had an excellent teacher.

Essential components of examples should not be omitted.
Yes, I agree with you that having an actual example of someone would be great; however, no one comes to mind at the moment. I also gave a time frame of 1-2 years, not 1 year. Given the fact that practicing 8-12 hours in a day is probably inefficient (though it's very hard to say in a particular case), it may be possible to achieve the same amount of improvement in 4-6 hours (admittedly, conjecture on my part, but not without basis: I'm drawing from studies which try and find the point of diminishing returns). Also, since the guy got there with 8-12 hours daily practice over one year, it makes sense that 4-6 hours over two years should do the trick! smile

Re: Grade 8 from scratch in one year
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Originally Posted by ranjit
Originally Posted by Iaroslav Vasiliev
ranjit, I'm sorry to say it, but your answer is completely uneducated. Learning to play the piano is a form of motor learning, and motor learning has been one of the focus points of science in recent decades. It's true that most of research is devoted to sports and rehabilitation and not to piano playing, but the amount of literature is big and growing, and it includes papers which focus on the best ways of exercising, the optimal amount of exercising per day and the degree of skill retention the next day. This degree of skill retention can be easily measured, and it determines the limit of what can be learned in one day using a chosen exercise regimen. It's not just a speculation, it's a thing that both neuroscience and pedagogy deal with.
Could you link specific papers? As it stands, it's not clear whatever research you've read applies to the piano. Again, I never denied that sleep consolidates memory, and there is a limited amount of information you can theoretically learn in a given time frame (this much is obvious), but your claims regarding what that limit is in a day are borne out of experience, and not neuroscience.
I'll cut to the chase. I will go by what teachers who work with students, with extensive experience, one-on-one say. I'll even go with what teachers, who have considered research material, and who have also worked (etc., as above). I'll go with what people learning to play an instrument can report. But I will not go on papers that are published somewhere, and where the abstract things become extrapolated into ideas of what probably works - or that tests subjects through trials put together by researchers who have not worked for years with students - who may not be musicians, etc. Not that alone, in any case.

In case this is in any way in the picture; I will not take one set of ideas over the others because of credentials or titles that the writer may have. Some of the most expert (in the true sense) people are ones who are utterly unknown, because they are too busy making things work. I want to hear from anyone, and about what anybody has done.

Thinking about this part here
Originally Posted by Iaroslav
This degree of skill retention can be easily measured.
Some years ago in this forum a teacher who created teaching materially that was being used nationally and internationally, corrected me on a wrong supposition. It involved programs like ABRSM, RCM, etc. but goes beyond it --- namely that these are centered around measurable things, but that many elements of music are immeasurable and those miss the mark. Likewise if you are going to do studies that get published with results, you can ONLY go for measurable things. It means what is subtle or immeasurable will not be part of this "set of knowledge". The scientific studies may give us information - some information - but not all information - and they are also not proof that other things may not be true or may not exist.

Ranjit - sending a PM.

Re: Grade 8 from scratch in one year
ranjit #3033405 10/08/20 12:41 PM
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Originally Posted by ranjit
Originally Posted by Iaroslav Vasiliev
ranjit, I'm sorry to say it, but your answer is completely uneducated. Learning to play the piano is a form of motor learning, and motor learning has been one of the focus points of science in recent decades. It's true that most of research is devoted to sports and rehabilitation and not to piano playing, but the amount of literature is big and growing, and it includes papers which focus on the best ways of exercising, the optimal amount of exercising per day and the degree of skill retention the next day. This degree of skill retention can be easily measured, and it determines the limit of what can be learned in one day using a chosen exercise regimen. It's not just a speculation, it's a thing that both neuroscience and pedagogy deal with.
Could you link specific papers? As it stands, it's not clear whatever research you've read applies to the piano. Again, I never denied that sleep consolidates memory, and there is a limited amount of information you can theoretically learn in a given time frame (this much is obvious), but your claims regarding what that limit is in a day are borne out of experience, and not neuroscience.
When you said that it's just my conjecture and it has nothing to do with science per se you quoted only the first paragraph of my post, the paragraph without any numbers. It made me think that you are questioning the theoretical basis. Possibly I have misunderstood you.

The numbers - yes, they are from my subjective experience, I thought it was clear from my post.

*No, sorry, I'm not going to search for papers now.

Originally Posted by ranjit
Do you mean stuff like knowing subdominant, dominant functions, etc. and being able to spot them in context? I'm not really sure about that, from my personal experience, one extended session works quite well if you need to understand and apply a bunch of rules. You just need them committed to memory in a sense. Maybe I'm just weird that way, but I've found extended sessions to work very well with learning any kind of music theory (or pretty much any kind of theory in general). This is because after a while you get into a state of focus or immersion which allows you to make connections and see the "bigger picture". With a small session, you are limited to seeing only a small portion of the whole, and that limits your ability to grasp the concept as a whole, which speeds up the learning process.
I was talking about doing music theory exercises. I think I touched that subject recently somewhere. It's not the initial skill acquisition phase like understanding what a dominant function is, but a substantially longer skill "automation" phase when you learn to identify it instantly in music. You may google for music theory exercises to understand better what I mean.

You're right that understanding of some concept may take more time, actually as much as it needs until it's understood, and there is no need to limit this time, except when the mental focus is lost, what I mentioned earlier.

Re: Grade 8 from scratch in one year
keystring #3033413 10/08/20 01:00 PM
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Originally Posted by keystring
Originally Posted by Iaroslav
This degree of skill retention can be easily measured.
Some years ago in this forum a teacher who created teaching materially that was being used nationally and internationally, corrected me on a wrong supposition. It involved programs like ABRSM, RCM, etc. but goes beyond it --- namely that these are centered around measurable things, but that many elements of music are immeasurable and those miss the mark. Likewise if you are going to do studies that get published with results, you can ONLY go for measurable things. It means what is subtle or immeasurable will not be part of this "set of knowledge". The scientific studies may give us information - some information - but not all information - and they are also not proof that other things may not be true or may not exist.
Yes, I fully agree. Science can only operate on clean-cut things, the art is beyond science in that sense.

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