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Re: New hybrid digital pianos "too good" compared to acoustic?
Marchelune #3033111 10/07/20 01:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Marchelune
Originally Posted by JoeT
If you're not able to play a piano due to neighbors, then don't buy one. There are quieter instruments to choose from.

Well that's kind of ... extreme 😅. Can you imagine telling young Martha Argerich "You know what, this is lovely but neighbours are complaining so play the picolo already!" (😝yes I picked an extreme counter-example). I agree with Pete14, I don't see a problem with looking for technological solutions to a common issue. Even an upright piano in a flat gets loud - not even talking about a grand. With digitals the amplification means you have more control over the max output volume.

In reality having "more control over the max output volume" on my P-515 doesn't provide any advantage for me. Instead I have louder and quieter guitars to choose from.

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Interesting though that you are forbidden to use amplification 🤔 does that mean you can't even listen to music or movies on speakers then?

You can listen to recorded music and movies as long as you set the amplification volume so low, that it can't be heard outside the apartment. So the actual volume depends on the building. This applies round the clock, no exceptions. It applies to digital pianos as well, so 300 W of speakers built in there are essentially useless inside shared housing with cardboard walls.

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Have the law makers ever heard a drum set x) ?

OTOH any acoustic instrument (including drum kits and concert grands) you can play as loud as you want, as long as you don't do it during the night. Some apartment people confuse this exception thinking they can blast their home cinema speakers during the day as well. Nope, if you want to make yourself heard to your neighbors, you have following options:

1. Your voice (non-amplified): Sing as loud and as much as you like.

2. Sitting down with any acoustic instrument and playing it yourself (non-amplified): hours limitations apply.

3. Your washing machine, vacuum cleaner or any other household tool.

That was meant by that electronic amplification is essentially banned, that is where we draw the line.


Richwood RD-17C-CE | LaMancha Rubi CM-N | Yamaha P-515
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Re: New hybrid digital pianos "too good" compared to acoustic?
computerpro3 #3033134 10/07/20 02:05 PM
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So, per your planet’s laws, Cecil Taylor can play his concert grand till the saints come marchin’ in, and the neighbors can’t complain?

Sign me up; I wanna live at Joe’s! grin

https://youtu.be/EstPgi4eMe4

Re: New hybrid digital pianos "too good" compared to acoustic?
mwf #3033151 10/07/20 02:34 PM
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Originally Posted by mwf
Silly post, completely disagree, can't beat a good grand, hybrids don't come close in sound, they still use tiny mb samples for one, laughably bad samples, and pianoteq is not a replacement for an acoustic live piano if you want to argue that you can use better sampled instruments though a hybrid.
But I think the NV10 with VST is better than uprights and baby grands, both of which are generally unsatisfying for an advanced classical pianist to play on, and the action is also better than most baby grands. I have to get up to at least parlor size on a quality acoustic before the quality starts to meet or surpass the hybrid sound.

Re: New hybrid digital pianos "too good" compared to acoustic?
kevin5540 #3033191 10/07/20 04:56 PM
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Is the NV10 lacking in sound quality, such that it needs VST?

Re: New hybrid digital pianos "too good" compared to acoustic?
johanibraaten #3033203 10/07/20 05:38 PM
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Originally Posted by johanibraaten
The other killer feature is that it has real string resonans even when playing with the digital sound source which, to me, makes it much more alive than other hybrids (obviously not with headphones) and that would be missed out with a stringless transducer based hybrid.
I've been wondering about this. I was originally thinking that perhaps when using a digitally sampled sound to activate the soundboard sonically, Yamaha probably would dampen all the strings because the string resonance is already recorded as part of the sample. If they don't dampen the strings, wouldn't there be a duplicate on the string resonance? One from the sampled sound, and the other from the real string(s)?

I can see the benefit of taking advantage of the real string(s) there to exercise real string resonance. But to avoid duplication of the sampled resonance and the real natural string resonance, which may sound unnaturally too much, wouldn't Yamaha have to use a different set of dry sampled sounds that don't resonate to alleviate the excess resonance? Or does it really not matter and the two sources of resonance would layer in real well???

Re: New hybrid digital pianos "too good" compared to acoustic?
Volusiano #3033206 10/07/20 05:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Volusiano
Originally Posted by johanibraaten
The other killer feature is that it has real string resonans even when playing with the digital sound source which, to me, makes it much more alive than other hybrids (obviously not with headphones) and that would be missed out with a stringless transducer based hybrid.
I've been wondering about this. I was originally thinking that perhaps when using a digitally sampled sound to activate the soundboard sonically, Yamaha probably would dampen all the strings because the string resonance is already recorded as part of the sample. If they don't dampen the strings, wouldn't there be a duplicate on the string resonance? One from the sampled sound, and the other from the real string(s)?

I can see the benefit of taking advantage of the real string(s) there to exercise real string resonance. But to avoid duplication of the sampled resonance and the real natural string resonance, which may sound unnaturally too much, wouldn't Yamaha have to use a different set of dry sampled sounds that don't resonate to alleviate the excess resonance? Or does it really not matter and the two sources of resonance would layer in real well???

I imagine the resonance apparent in digitals isn't necessarily that recorded in the sample. The sample would be divest of that, and something else added which is probably modelled.
It may be the Digital part of these pianos has no resonance other than what the strings generate.


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Re: New hybrid digital pianos "too good" compared to acoustic?
pdavidow #3033219 10/07/20 06:48 PM
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Originally Posted by pdavidow
Is the NV10 lacking in sound quality, such that it needs VST?

Wonder if (1) NV10 with only a single 16cm speaker is sufficient enough in bass to play other instruments in its sound bank? I understand it's sufficient for the piano sounds, just wondering if it's ok for the bass or other sounds it can output / layer.

(2) is using VST sending signals back to the NV10 to output through NV10 speakers ?

Re: New hybrid digital pianos "too good" compared to acoustic?
computerpro3 #3036470 10/16/20 10:40 PM
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New question for the thread:

I’m considering the Yamaha C3X because of the sound and feel of the keyboard. I live in a condo and would like the option to play in the evening (softly), and/or silently with headsets. The simple answer is a C3X TA2 which pretty much mandates a pricy new C3X. Does anyone feel using Yamaha’s, or other’s silent technology, and plugging high quality speakers into the headphone jack gives me most of a TA2, less the transducers driving the sound board. If this works it allows me to purchase a used and much less expensive C3X.

I’d appreciate opinions on this approach.

Re: New hybrid digital pianos "too good" compared to acoustic?
NYCDLP #3036496 10/17/20 03:16 AM
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Originally Posted by NYCDLP
New question for the thread:

I’m considering the Yamaha C3X because of the sound and feel of the keyboard. I live in a condo and would like the option to play in the evening (softly), and/or silently with headsets. The simple answer is a C3X TA2 which pretty much mandates a pricy new C3X. Does anyone feel using Yamaha’s, or other’s silent technology, and plugging high quality speakers into the headphone jack gives me most of a TA2, less the transducers driving the sound board. If this works it allows me to purchase a used and much less expensive C3X.

I’d appreciate opinions on this approach.
I've never tried what you are suggesting but it's an interesting idea and I guess it comes down to how much you prioritize plying without headphones at lower volume. If that is how you mainly going to play the piano and want the real strings (I saw in the other thread that you're not interested in the hybrid AG/Novus) I would also consider the cheaper transAcoustic options. The C3X is a great piano for shure with a brilliant action but the piano playing experience is such a complex mix of many thing so perhaps a Upright or cheaper grand transacoustic makes a better experience than playing the C3X through speakers. If I was in the market for a new piano I'd try out as many options as possible to find out what suits my needs best. That said, if you have the oportunity to get a C3X silent for a good price it sure is a nice instrument.


"Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler." - Albert Einstein
Re: New hybrid digital pianos "too good" compared to acoustic?
NYCDLP #3036585 10/17/20 09:42 AM
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Originally Posted by NYCDLP
Does anyone feel using Yamaha’s, or other’s silent technology, and plugging high quality speakers into the headphone jack gives me most of a TA2, less the transducers driving the sound board.
I wouldn't assume the sound board is either better or worse than loudspeakers.

On the one hand, Yamaha is a global leader in musical instruments, amplifiers, and loudspeakers, so they have the in-house expertise to make a soundboard system work. On the other hand, music reproduction via traditional loudspeakers has the benefit of decades of R&D (but loudspeaker design still has a way to go IMHO).

You just need to demo it these pianos to determine for yourself.

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