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Re: New hybrid digital pianos "too good" compared to acoustic?
computerpro3 #3032722 10/06/20 02:41 PM
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How about a hybrid for headphones only? Let the user worry and pay for speakers if so desired. After all, some players almost exclusively use headphones.

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Re: New hybrid digital pianos "too good" compared to acoustic?
Marchelune #3032726 10/06/20 02:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Marchelune
Originally Posted by Volusiano
My understanding is that the soundboard of the Yamaha AvantGrand N3 or N3X is just a piece of wood driven by transducers that provides some resonance (they call it the Soundboard Resonator).
AvantGrands have that 🤯? I didn't pay attention but indeed, it is listed in Yamaha's website specs, now I'm really curious what it looks like/what is meant exactly. I can't find any picture online.

It's the piece of wood on top, right behind the music sheet stand, before the speaker cabinet. It spans the width of the keyboard, and is curved a little bit into the speakers cabinet. It probably has transducers underneath it to cause it to resonate a little when played through the speakers.

Re: New hybrid digital pianos "too good" compared to acoustic?
pdavidow #3032728 10/06/20 03:00 PM
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Originally Posted by pdavidow
How about a hybrid for headphones only? Let the user worry and pay for speakers if so desired. After all, some players almost exclusively use headphones.
I'd imagine that it doesn't save Yamaha that much to forgo the speaker system on the N1X. So you can think of the N1X as a hybrid specifically for headphones, with the added bonus and convenience of an acceptable speaker system, if you're so inclined to find it adequate enough. If not, then add your own speaker system on top of it like some of the N1X owners do on this forum.

Re: New hybrid digital pianos "too good" compared to acoustic?
computerpro3 #3032742 10/06/20 03:20 PM
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Silly post, completely disagree, can't beat a good grand, hybrids don't come close in sound, they still use tiny mb samples for one, laughably bad samples, and pianoteq is not a replacement for an acoustic live piano if you want to argue that you can use better sampled instruments though a hybrid.

Re: New hybrid digital pianos "too good" compared to acoustic?
computerpro3 #3032786 10/06/20 04:50 PM
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I like this topic, I've been away from PW for a few month and this was a entertaining thread to get into it again:) Nice playing by the way computerpro3. Just to add something to the discussion, I think the onboard sounds on these fine instrument deserves more credibility. To me both the AG- and the NV:s internal sound sources sounds great and and the playability can't, in some regards, be beaten even by Pianoteq (I love Gombessas reference to Godwin's law:)).

Last edited by johanibraaten; 10/06/20 04:51 PM.

"Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler." - Albert Einstein
Re: New hybrid digital pianos "too good" compared to acoustic?
computerpro3 #3032907 10/06/20 10:26 PM
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I own a Novus (and Garritan CFX) too, and I am surprised by how "easy" it is to produce nice-sounding recordings with much less effort in comparison to recording an acoustic grand. I can more or less plan out an interpretation and execute 99% of it consistently without any issues in evenness or unexpectedly harsh tones. The downside though is that often I feel straitjacketed into interpreting a piece a certain way because of a smaller tonal palette in comparison to a real acoustic. Does the OP ever get that kind of feeling?

On the other hand, when my teacher records my lessons on his nice Hamburg Steinway D and I listen back to it, the recording sometimes sounds totally alien to what I thought I was doing (sometimes good but more frequently bad!).


Youtube piano recordings (classical music/video games/anime): https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCh9N3Xirs86USDQXE1WiwXg
Kawai Novus NV-10 / Yamaha Avantgrand N1 with Garritan CFX VST
Re: New hybrid digital pianos "too good" compared to acoustic?
rach3master #3032978 10/07/20 06:13 AM
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Originally Posted by rach3master
I own a Novus (and Garritan CFX) too, and I am surprised by how "easy" it is to produce nice-sounding recordings with much less effort in comparison to recording an acoustic grand. I can more or less plan out an interpretation and execute 99% of it consistently without any issues in evenness or unexpectedly harsh tones.

This because you are not really "recording" an "interpretation". You're just mixing prerecorded one-note pieces using a MIDI controller.

Quote
The downside though is that often I feel straitjacketed into interpreting a piece a certain way because of a smaller tonal palette in comparison to a real acoustic.

Of course, this is what happens, when you're mixing samples (like a rap musician) instead of playing a real instrument.

I shouldn't surprise you, that VSTi plugins are meant to be used exactly this way: to fake recordings of acoustic grand pianos.


Richwood RD-17C-CE | LaMancha Rubi CM-N | Yamaha P-515
Re: New hybrid digital pianos "too good" compared to acoustic?
computerpro3 #3032996 10/07/20 07:04 AM
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To the original poster:
I am by no means a very good or very experienced player. But I had an experience somewhat similar to yours regardless when I gave up my rented K300 acoustic and moved to a Kawai ES8 - I posted about it on this very forum if I recall correctly.
The ES8 was much easier for me to control the dynamics of compared to the acoustic and it kind of felt like "cheating" :-)
Anyways - i hated not having an acoustic and got an old U1 which I love - even if I still can't control the dynamics of my playing for [censored] on the thing :-)

Re: New hybrid digital pianos "too good" compared to acoustic?
pdavidow #3033013 10/07/20 07:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Volusiano
It's the piece of wood on top, right behind the music sheet stand, before the speaker cabinet. It spans the width of the keyboard, and is curved a little bit into the speakers cabinet. It probably has transducers underneath it to cause it to resonate a little when played through the speakers.
Aha I see! Thanks Volusiano! Maybe that participates in the N3X's sound projection (better to my ears than the NV10).

Originally Posted by pdavidow
How about a hybrid for headphones only? Let the user worry and pay for speakers if so desired. After all, some players almost exclusively use headphones.
I agree with Volusiano, I see the N1X and even the NV10 as the headphone oriented hybrids, whilst N2/N3X sound more "room scale". I can't imagine a hybrid piano sold without any built-in speaker system though.

rach3master very nice play and YT channel 👏👏!


I post piano stuff on my instagram page --> https://www.instagram.com/marchelune smile
I own an old Roland FP-4, looking for a hybrid piano to upgrade to!

Current work: Beethoven's Sonata No. 17 (Der Sturm) Mv. III.
Re: New hybrid digital pianos "too good" compared to acoustic?
computerpro3 #3033017 10/07/20 08:04 AM
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Stringless ‘ducer-based’ hybrid piano with real -high quality- soundboard! Hello?

Isn’t this what we’ve been asking for?

“Oh, if Kawai just came out with an NV-20 using a real soundboard.” Well, Steingraeber has gone done that, and we go totally silent, or even worse, now we’re asking for a ‘headphone’ oriented hybrid.

Make up your mind, people! grin

Re: New hybrid digital pianos "too good" compared to acoustic?
computerpro3 #3033019 10/07/20 08:16 AM
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Yes, Pete. This is like Stevie Wonder seeking a big screen TV. Or Helen Keller buying a surround sound stereo. smile

Re: New hybrid digital pianos "too good" compared to acoustic?
Pete14 #3033022 10/07/20 08:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Pete14
Stringless ‘ducer-based’ hybrid piano with real -high quality- soundboard! Hello?

Isn’t this what we’ve been asking for?

“Oh, if Kawai just came out with an NV-20 using a real soundboard.” Well, Steingraeber has gone done that, and we go totally silent, or even worse, now we’re asking for a ‘headphone’ oriented hybrid.

Make up your mind, people! grin
I think the Transacoustic, Aures & Steingraeber/pianoteq pianos are the gold standard of the current hybrid instruments. However, what makes them so great is partly the versatility to be able to play both acoustic and digital. The other killer feature is that it has real string resonans even when playing with the digital sound source which, to me, makes it much more alive than other hybrids (obviously not with headphones) and that would be missed out with a stringless transducer based hybrid.


"Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler." - Albert Einstein
Re: New hybrid digital pianos "too good" compared to acoustic?
computerpro3 #3033024 10/07/20 08:44 AM
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.....but johan, the point of the ‘stringless’ option is to make it more affordable and practical.

Yes, the Trans/Aures seems like the holy grail at the moment, but these are very expensive because one is buying a whole acoustic along with the digital.

The stringless version is not only cheaper but also more practical for many who will not be able to play in ‘acoustic mode’ due to neighboring concerns. For these -many- people I don’t think it would be a big deal to have modeled string resonances over having real strings that come attached to a whole acoustic piano that, as I’ve said above, will go wasted (neighbors), and requires higher maintenance expenses.

Re: New hybrid digital pianos "too good" compared to acoustic?
Pete14 #3033046 10/07/20 10:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Pete14
.....but johan, the point of the ‘stringless’ option is to make it more affordable and practical.

Yes, the Trans/Aures seems like the holy grail at the moment, but these are very expensive because one is buying a whole acoustic along with the digital.

The stringless version is not only cheaper but also more practical for many who will not be able to play in ‘acoustic mode’ due to neighboring concerns. For these -many- people I don’t think it would be a big deal to have modeled string resonances over having real strings that come attached to a whole acoustic piano that, as I’ve said above, will go wasted (neighbors), and requires higher maintenance expenses.
I see your point. What you describing would basically be a grand version of the NV5. Personally I'm not convinced it would make a huge benefit over current solutions unless you made an instrument with a soundboard with the same size and construction as the acoustic instrument it tries to mimic and that would'n be a cheap instrument. However, if anyone did that and found a way to transfer the same kind of vibrations to it as strings does, it would be very interesting.


"Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler." - Albert Einstein
Re: New hybrid digital pianos "too good" compared to acoustic?
Pete14 #3033050 10/07/20 10:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Pete14
.....but johan, the point of the ‘stringless’ option is to make it more affordable and practical.

Yes, the Trans/Aures seems like the holy grail at the moment, but these are very expensive because one is buying a whole acoustic along with the digital.

The stringless version is not only cheaper but also more practical for many who will not be able to play in ‘acoustic mode’ due to neighboring concerns. For these -many- people I don’t think it would be a big deal to have modeled string resonances over having real strings that come attached to a whole acoustic piano that, as I’ve said above, will go wasted (neighbors), and requires higher maintenance expenses.

If you're not able to play a piano due to neighbors, then don't buy one. There are quieter instruments to choose from.

Or you start with practicing the saxophone and then switch to piano afterwards. You neighbors won't hear the latter anymore. wink

In fact: Where I live the laws pretty much only allow practicing and playing acoustic instruments, while anything featuring amplification is either banned or only allowed at really low volume. So getting a digital piano means shooting yourself in the foot.


Richwood RD-17C-CE | LaMancha Rubi CM-N | Yamaha P-515
Re: New hybrid digital pianos "too good" compared to acoustic?
Marchelune #3033051 10/07/20 10:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Marchelune
I agree with Volusiano, I see the N1X and even the NV10 as the headphone oriented hybrids, whilst N2/N3X sound more "room scale". I can't imagine a hybrid piano sold without any built-in speaker system though.

This is a tough crowd! The NV-10 and N1X probably have better speakers than 99% of all digital pianos out there, and yet they are only best described as headphone-oriented smile


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50, Kawai MP11 || Kawai NV-10
Re: New hybrid digital pianos "too good" compared to acoustic?
JoeT #3033072 10/07/20 11:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Pete14
Stringless ‘ducer-based’ hybrid piano with real -high quality- soundboard! Hello?

Isn’t this what we’ve been asking for?

“Oh, if Kawai just came out with an NV-20 using a real soundboard.” Well, Steingraeber has gone done that, and we go totally silent, or even worse, now we’re asking for a ‘headphone’ oriented hybrid.

Make up your mind, people! grin

I may be wrong but I think there is a quiproquo on the Steingraeber here: they title "Without Strings / With Hammer Stop" but from what I gather the piano is still sold with strings (but I guess there must be a stop bar or something). So in terms of cost and size it's still another league. Unless this is indeed sold without strings, in this case you are right Pete!

Originally Posted by JoeT
If you're not able to play a piano due to neighbors, then don't buy one. There are quieter instruments to choose from.

Well that's kind of ... extreme 😅. Can you imagine telling young Martha Argerich "You know what, this is lovely but neighbours are complaining so play the picolo already!" (😝yes I picked an extreme counter-example). I agree with Pete14, I don't see a problem with looking for technological solutions to a common issue. Even an upright piano in a flat gets loud - not even talking about a grand. With digitals the amplification means you have more control over the max output volume.

Interesting though that you are forbidden to use amplification 🤔 does that mean you can't even listen to music or movies on speakers then? Have the law makers ever heard a drum set x) ?


I post piano stuff on my instagram page --> https://www.instagram.com/marchelune smile
I own an old Roland FP-4, looking for a hybrid piano to upgrade to!

Current work: Beethoven's Sonata No. 17 (Der Sturm) Mv. III.
Re: New hybrid digital pianos "too good" compared to acoustic?
Gombessa #3033073 10/07/20 11:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Gombessa
This is a tough crowd! The NV-10 and N1X probably have better speakers than 99% of all digital pianos out there, and yet they are only best described as headphone-oriented smile

Yeaah I admit this was leaning on the blanket statement 😬, you are right! On the other hand they are also more expensive than 99% of digital pianos so expectations are high 😇.


I post piano stuff on my instagram page --> https://www.instagram.com/marchelune smile
I own an old Roland FP-4, looking for a hybrid piano to upgrade to!

Current work: Beethoven's Sonata No. 17 (Der Sturm) Mv. III.
Re: New hybrid digital pianos "too good" compared to acoustic?
JoeT #3033075 10/07/20 11:16 AM
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Originally Posted by JoeT
Originally Posted by Pete14
In fact: Where I live the laws pretty much only allow practicing and playing acoustic instruments, while anything featuring amplification is either banned or only allowed at really low volume. So getting a digital piano means shooting yourself in the foot.


Where the h-e-l-l do you live, Joe? laugh

The rules are backwards on your planet!

Re: New hybrid digital pianos "too good" compared to acoustic?
Pete14 #3033084 10/07/20 11:51 AM
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Very backwards! They even shoot themselves!
Originally Posted by Pete14
Originally Posted by JoeT
Originally Posted by Pete14
In fact: Where I live the laws pretty much only allow practicing and playing acoustic instruments, while anything featuring amplification is either banned or only allowed at really low volume. So getting a digital piano means shooting yourself in the foot.
Where the h-e-l-l do you live, Joe? laugh
The rules are backwards on your planet!

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