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No agraffs in the bass of a Kawai Baby
#3031807 10/03/20 10:48 PM
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I was working on a Kawai GM-10 K today and noticed no agraffs in the bass. I’ve encountered no agraffs on baby grands from the depression era and was told by other techs that this is a sign of a cheap poorly made piano. Kawai stopped making the GM-10 model in 2005. GM-11 model replaced it and does have agraffs.

I wish I had the GM-11 and GM-10 side by side and was able to hear if there is any noticeable difference in tone quality.

Are there other more recently made pianos that don’t have agraffs?
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Re: No agraffs in the bass of a Kawai Baby
TimM_980 #3031808 10/03/20 11:04 PM
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Originally Posted by TimM_980
I was working on a Kawai GM-10 K today and noticed no agraffs in the bass. I’ve encountered no agraffs on baby grands from the depression era and was told by other techs that this is a sign of a cheap poorly made piano.
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is it really the question of making that piano cheaper? For a piano, the main thing is adherence its technological characteristics, I'm think.

Re: No agraffs in the bass of a Kawai Baby
TimM_980 #3031819 10/04/20 01:57 AM
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Stuart&Sons

Re: No agraffs in the bass of a Kawai Baby
OE1FEU #3032270 10/05/20 08:37 AM
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Originally Posted by OE1FEU
Stuart&Sons

No, these have inverted agraffes. You can see them in the photo in the "Stuart Bridge Agraffe" section here.

Re: No agraffs in the bass of a Kawai Baby
Scott E #3032555 10/06/20 07:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Scott E
Originally Posted by OE1FEU
Stuart&Sons

No, these have inverted agraffes. You can see them in the photo in the "Stuart Bridge Agraffe" section here.

Let's disagree then.

https://www.stuartandsons.com/uploads/2/7/3/9/27391915/108-key-stuart-sons-piano-3_1.jpg

Re: No agraffs in the bass of a Kawai Baby
OE1FEU #3032569 10/06/20 07:42 AM
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?? You can just see the agraffes in that photo to the left of the felt ...

Re: No agraffs in the bass of a Kawai Baby
OE1FEU #3032582 10/06/20 08:45 AM
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Originally Posted by OE1FEU
Originally Posted by Scott E
Originally Posted by OE1FEU
Stuart&Sons

No, these have inverted agraffes. You can see them in the photo in the "Stuart Bridge Agraffe" section here.

Let's disagree then.

https://www.stuartandsons.com/uploads/2/7/3/9/27391915/108-key-stuart-sons-piano-3_1.jpg

Yes, there is something that looks like a capo bar, but on the underside of it there are agraffes, inverted from the normal position. If you look at the picture here you can see them under what would appear to be a capo bar if viewed from the top.

Re: No agraffs in the bass of a Kawai Baby
Scott E #3032586 10/06/20 08:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Scott E
No, these have inverted agraffes. You can see them in the photo in the "Stuart Bridge Agraffe" section here.
Can someone clarify the description on that page of how they use an agraffe. It sounds like they are replacing the bridge pin with an agraffe, but I don't see how that changes the amount of down force on the bridge, and results in their claim that: "the soundboard can thus be designed on a speaker cone principle and not as a load bearing structure as is the case in the standard piano" . It seems like they would have an agraffe pushing down on the bridge which is pushing down on the soundboard. How is that different than a bridge pin pushing down on the bridge which is pushing down on the soundboard.


Yamaha P90, Kawai GL-10
Re: No agraffs in the bass of a Kawai Baby
MarkL #3032601 10/06/20 09:26 AM
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Originally Posted by MarkL
Originally Posted by Scott E
No, these have inverted agraffes. You can see them in the photo in the "Stuart Bridge Agraffe" section here.
Can someone clarify the description on that page of how they use an agraffe. It sounds like they are replacing the bridge pin with an agraffe, but I don't see how that changes the amount of down force on the bridge, and results in their claim that: "the soundboard can thus be designed on a speaker cone principle and not as a load bearing structure as is the case in the standard piano" . It seems like they would have an agraffe pushing down on the bridge which is pushing down on the soundboard. How is that different than a bridge pin pushing down on the bridge which is pushing down on the soundboard.
The string is restrained by the bridge agraffes in both upward and downward travel directions. This means they can run the soundboard as an unloaded structure, a membrane like a drumskin, able to oscillate above and below the neutral plane. This is quite different to a crowned soundboard with the string path over the bridge applying constant downforce on the soundboard/bridge assembly.

Re: No agraffs in the bass of a Kawai Baby
ando #3032603 10/06/20 09:46 AM
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Originally Posted by ando
Originally Posted by MarkL
Originally Posted by Scott E
No, these have inverted agraffes. You can see them in the photo in the "Stuart Bridge Agraffe" section here.
Can someone clarify the description on that page of how they use an agraffe. It sounds like they are replacing the bridge pin with an agraffe, but I don't see how that changes the amount of down force on the bridge, and results in their claim that: "the soundboard can thus be designed on a speaker cone principle and not as a load bearing structure as is the case in the standard piano" . It seems like they would have an agraffe pushing down on the bridge which is pushing down on the soundboard. How is that different than a bridge pin pushing down on the bridge which is pushing down on the soundboard.
The string is restrained by the bridge agraffes in both upward and downward travel directions. This means they can run the soundboard as an unloaded structure, a membrane like a drumskin, able to oscillate above and below the neutral plane. This is quite different to a crowned soundboard with the string path over the bridge applying constant downforce on the soundboard/bridge assembly.

And to further confuse things, the inverted agraffes that I'm pointing out in the bridge agraffe section are not the bridge agraffes. The bridge agraffes replace the bridge pins, the inverted agraffes replace the capo bar or conventional agraffes.

Re: No agraffs in the bass of a Kawai Baby
Scott E #3032783 10/06/20 04:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Scott E
And to further confuse things, the inverted agraffes that I'm pointing out in the bridge agraffe section are not the bridge agraffes. The bridge agraffes replace the bridge pins, the inverted agraffes replace the capo bar or conventional agraffes.

I got it, thanks.

Re: No agraffs in the bass of a Kawai Baby
TimM_980 #3032837 10/06/20 06:44 PM
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Thanks for the explanation, I went off and read about it. Never heard of this before.


Yamaha P90, Kawai GL-10
Re: No agraffs in the bass of a Kawai Baby
TimM_980 #3032840 10/06/20 06:45 PM
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Blüthner uses inverted agraffes for their aliquot strings in the highest register.


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