2017 was our 20th year online!

Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 3 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Shop our online store for music lovers
SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Wessell Nickel & Gross
PianoForAll
(ad)
Best of Piano Buyer
 Best of Piano Buyer
(ad)
Faust Harrison Pianos
Faust Harrison 100+ Steinway pianos
Who's Online Now
60 members (Daryl Durand, andredatele, Boboulus, David Boyce, anotherscott, CyberGene, dennisr, 16 invisible), 545 guests, and 474 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
How to describe an octave stretch?
#3030494 09/30/20 07:48 AM
Joined: Jun 2020
Posts: 2
P
Junior Member
OP Offline
Junior Member
P
Joined: Jun 2020
Posts: 2
Hi all,

We recently moved and got a new piano tuner. Unfortunately, we weren’t very happy with our the way they tuned the piano - there was way too much dissonance amongst the intervals. He said that he had tuned it to give it more of the feel of a grand (it’s a Yamaha YUS 1 upright), so it would feel more spacious, so I am guessing that he gave it a much wider octave stretch.

I asked my old piano tuner how they used to tune, so I could ask the new one to tune it the same way, and they said that they used the ‘Average’ setting on Veritune. The Veritune website describes this as “Moderate stretch. A generic style, probably the best choice for the majority of tunings“, but doesn’t include additional information beyond that.

How can I describe this type of tuning to my new piano tuner so that they are able to tune the piano similarly? Unfortunately, the new tuner doesn’t use the same Veritune program. I think I’d want to give them the stretch points? Does anyone have a sense of what the stretch points would be for this type of tuning?

We also ended up having a bit of a voicing catastrophe last time where he ended up rubbing all of the hammers with a little brush (though we didn’t ask him to revoice it), which completely changed the character of the piano, and made it so that we couldn’t have an aggressive attack at all. It felt like a completely different piano! It became almost unplayable with how hard we had to hit the attack to get the same colour range as before. It was a huge bummer particularly since we enjoy playing so much Beethoven and the like, which just didn’t lend itself well to the new character. We think he has a better sense of what we’re looking for, though, and will make sure to confirm that he isn’t drastically changing the voicing on the piano - it seems that a little bit of evening out is to be expected?

I’m still a little torn about whether it would make sense to work with another tuner, given that there were several things we were unhappy with, though he did end up coming back and fixing the voicing situation, so I am thinking that we might be able to get something that we’re happy with by better describing what we are looking for. Would appreciate any help in that regard!

Last edited by pianomorning; 09/30/20 07:57 AM.
(ad)
Piano & Music Accessories
piano accessories music gifts tuning and moving equipment
Re: How to describe an octave stretch?
pianomorning #3030504 09/30/20 08:20 AM
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 2,156
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 2,156
Does the new tuner use any sort of tuning program? Which one would be helpful information!

This may sound like gobbledeegook, but generally speaking, using the Average Verituner setting, the temperament is tuned to a slightly wide 4:2 octave type (1/3 beat/second). Going up from there the program transitions to first a slightly wide 2:1 octave, then a slightly wide double octave. The top octave or so is a pure double octave. Going down from the middle the program focuses on a slightly wide 6:3 octave type.

It might not be a bad idea to seek out another tech with a Verituner if you like the tunings calculated with that app...

Ron Koval

Re: How to describe an octave stretch?
pianomorning #3030505 09/30/20 08:31 AM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 2,088
E
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
E
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 2,088
Greetings,

It is difficult, if not impossible,to be satisfied by the work of someone that isn't trusted. Tuners come in a wide variety of skill, experience, and presence. Some are aces and some are quacks, most falling on a continuum between extremes. Prices from down there to over the moon, and there is the perfect customer out there for each. Finding a tech you will be happy with, and whose skill, experience and presence leave you with the joy of playing rather than tentative suspicion may be difficult. Try another, (the 2nd may be a more expensive tech, but you are looking for better results). I would say to trust your musical sense, intuition, and feeling when assaying a tech you are considering as our 'gut' feelings about others is correct far more often than not.
Regards,

Re: How to describe an octave stretch?
pianomorning #3030534 09/30/20 10:43 AM
Joined: Sep 2018
Posts: 149
N
N W Offline
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
N
Joined: Sep 2018
Posts: 149
I would mildly suggest that you ask your next tuner, however he/she tunes, ear, app or anything else, to give you beatless double octaves as it goes up. This will free you from all the stress sensations that accompany the modern obsession with detuning by stretching octaves...which is what creates the dissonance.
Get a nice, proper tuning on there and hear your piano become all musical again!
Nick


Nick, ageing piano technician
Re: How to describe an octave stretch?
pianomorning #3030537 09/30/20 10:50 AM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 5,580
W
5000 Post Club Member
Offline
5000 Post Club Member
W
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 5,580
Do you have the same piano as before the move?
How did it sound right after the move, before it was re-tuned?


[Linked Image][Linked Image][Linked Image][Linked Image]
Re: How to describe an octave stretch?
pianomorning #3030564 09/30/20 11:55 AM
Joined: Jun 2020
Posts: 2
P
Junior Member
OP Offline
Junior Member
P
Joined: Jun 2020
Posts: 2
Originally Posted by wouter79
Do you have the same piano as before the move?
How did it sound right after the move, before it was re-tuned?

Yes, I have the same piano. Before it was re-tuned it sounded great, it was tuned right before it was moved. It’s under 2 years old and we’ve been extremely happy with it, it’s definitely the tuner.

Last edited by pianomorning; 09/30/20 11:57 AM.
Re: How to describe an octave stretch?
pianomorning #3030569 09/30/20 12:07 PM
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 1,012
D
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
D
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 1,012
How did it sound in the new location before the tuning? It's possible that you could hear things in the piano in this room that you didn't notice in it's previous location. I'm not trying to discount what you're saying, just offering some alternatives.

Re: How to describe an octave stretch?
pianomorning #3030589 09/30/20 01:16 PM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 4,744
H
4000 Post Club Member
Offline
4000 Post Club Member
H
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 4,744
Octave stretch is defined according how the partials of the lower and higher notes of an octave are aligned with respect to each other.

A 2:1 octave means that the first partial of the higher note is tuned to have zero beats with the second partial of the lower note.

Similar descriptions hold for 4:2, 6:3, 4:1 etc. type octaves.

Test notes can be used to find out the type of the octave.

For example, the test note for a 4:2 octave is the major third below the lower note.

Consider the A3-A4 octave. The test note is the F3 below A3. If the major third interval F3-A3 beats at the same rate with the major tenth interval F3-A4, then the octave is a 4:2 octave. If the major third beats slightly slower than the major tenth then the octave is slightly wider than a 4:2 octave and vice versa.

Other types of octaves can be test similarly using the test note for that type octave.

Re: How to describe an octave stretch?
pianomorning #3030729 09/30/20 08:21 PM
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 2,156
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 2,156
I hate to even broach the subject, but it is possible if the new tuner didn't use some sort of piano tuning app, what you felt/heard might have been a problem with the temperament, or how the octave is divided up rather than the stretch of the piano. In other words, not equal temperament, but some unequal facsimile. Unfortunately, some typical mistakes will lead to a situation where the key of C will be all 'busy' sounding, while the C# triad or B chord may sound smooth and calm...

See if there are big differences between the major chords in the middle of your piano?

Ron Koval

Re: How to describe an octave stretch?
pianomorning #3030833 10/01/20 05:38 AM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 5,580
W
5000 Post Club Member
Offline
5000 Post Club Member
W
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 5,580
Originally Posted by pianomorning
Originally Posted by wouter79
Do you have the same piano as before the move?
How did it sound right after the move, before it was re-tuned?

Yes, I have the same piano. Before it was re-tuned it sounded great, it was tuned right before it was moved. It’s under 2 years old and we’ve been extremely happy with it, it’s definitely the tuner.

Ok then you are probably just as picky about the tuning as I am...

I also tried a number of different tuners in the past, and they all just fall short. My favourite tuner also uses a tuning tool but he also listens to his ears. Somehow he gets the pitch both stable and the chords just resonating perfectly. The other tuners did a decent job but often they were less stable and the chords just a tad less nice.


Maybe you can find a concert-grade tuner but this may become difficult and expensive.

Alternatively, and maybe the only option, is to get the same tuning device as your favorite tuner and learn how to tune yourself.


[Linked Image][Linked Image][Linked Image][Linked Image]
Re: How to describe an octave stretch?
pianomorning #3030852 10/01/20 06:50 AM
Joined: Sep 2018
Posts: 149
N
N W Offline
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
N
Joined: Sep 2018
Posts: 149
Perhaps you call call your previous tuner and ask him what his approach to stretching octaves was and relay that info to a new tuner...?
Nick


Nick, ageing piano technician
Re: How to describe an octave stretch?
pianomorning #3031887 10/04/20 07:47 AM
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 2,691
Bronze Subscriber
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
Bronze Subscriber
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 2,691
Using a brass brush on the hammers is quite normal and yes it will soften the sound, but with a few hours of playing this softness greatly reduces. It definitely would not be permanent. Stretching is a natural effect and its amount is directly related to the length and diameter of the strings. So the stretch is an effect that is automatically accommodated as the tuner tunes. You cannot apply a stretch that a concert grand has, to an upright.
Ian


I'm all keyed up
2016 Blüthner Model A
Re: How to describe an octave stretch?
pianomorning #3032107 10/04/20 07:11 PM
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 5,703
E
5000 Post Club Member
Offline
5000 Post Club Member
E
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 5,703
I agree with Ed Foote's advice.

The piano just simply needs to be IN-TUNE! Customers shouldn't have to figure out octave stretch.

Find a tuner who knows how to tune.


In a seemingly infinite universe-infinite human creativity is-seemingly possible.
According to NASA, 93% of the earth like planets possible in the known universe have yet to be formed.
Contact: Ed@LightHammerpiano.com
Re: How to describe an octave stretch?
Ed McMorrow, RPT #3032161 10/04/20 10:43 PM
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 2,261
K
Platinum Subscriber
2000 Post Club Member
Online Content
Platinum Subscriber
2000 Post Club Member
K
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 2,261
Originally Posted by Ed McMorrow, RPT
I agree with Ed Foote's advice.

The piano just simply needs to be IN-TUNE! Customers shouldn't have to figure out octave stretch.

Find a tuner who knows how to tune.
thumb


Keith Akins, RPT
Piano Technologist
USA Distributor for Isaac Cadenza hammers and Profundo Bass Strings
Supporting Piano Owners D-I-Y piano tuning and repair
editor emeritus of Piano Technicians Journal
Re: How to describe an octave stretch?
pianomorning #3032570 10/06/20 07:46 AM
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 3,433
P
3000 Post Club Member
Online Content
3000 Post Club Member
P
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 3,433
Pianomorning,

I'm curious as to whether you engaged in a significant amount of discussion with this new tech BEFORE he started tuning (e.g. likes/dislikes, previous tuner, bright/mellow, music preferences, etc.)

When this happens to me, no start to get the idea that there "might" be a problem. In the past I made assumptions about the clients preference (some right, some wrong [mistake]). I eventually decided to simply tell them: "Rather than me trying to figure out your concerns, how about I simply tune the piano the way I think it will sound best, and if you like it, we're good...if you don't like it you can find someone else who does things differently". Since then I have never made a "mistake".

Peter Grey Piano Doctor


Peter W. Grey, RPT
New Hampshire Seacoast
www.seacoastpianodoctor.com
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PK0T7_I_nV8
Re: How to describe an octave stretch?
pianomorning #3033055 10/07/20 10:21 AM
Joined: Oct 2020
Posts: 301
P
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
P
Joined: Oct 2020
Posts: 301
Tuning an upright with a large stretch to imitate the spaciousness of a grand is a theoretical concept. It doesn’t work in real life. It just sounds like it might be a good idea. It’s not.

If a tuner is willing to purposefully tune a piano with that much dissonance, they are not noticing that the piano is not able to function musically. Chances are, they will never be able to tune the piano so that it is harmonious with itself. Harmony needs to flow and melodies need to sing when the piano is played. Get someone who knows how to tune a piano so that it works.


piano tuner
Re: How to describe an octave stretch?
pianomorning #3033751 10/09/20 09:23 AM
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 3,433
P
3000 Post Club Member
Online Content
3000 Post Club Member
P
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 3,433
Pianomorning,

It's been almost ten days. What's happening? Have you solved your problem?

Peter Grey Piano Doctor


Peter W. Grey, RPT
New Hampshire Seacoast
www.seacoastpianodoctor.com
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PK0T7_I_nV8

Moderated by  Piano World 

Link Copied to Clipboard
(ad)
Pianoteq
Steinway Spiro Layering
(ad)
PianoDisc

PianoDisc
(ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad)
Mason & Hamlin Pianos
(ad) SWEETWATER Cyber Sale
New Topics - Multiple Forums
The 100 Hardest Piano Concertos
by achoo42 - 11/30/20 06:19 PM
MIDI to USB double output
by lukasz-zsakul - 11/30/20 04:57 PM
Chopin's Nocturne op 27 no.2 vs. op.72 no.1
by RhaegarTargaryen - 11/30/20 03:51 PM
back after 34 years
by JerryLouis - 11/30/20 02:44 PM
Roland FP-30 Bluetooth Connectivity Issue
by Yaboku - 11/30/20 01:08 PM
Download Sheet Music
Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads
Forum Statistics
Forums41
Topics203,170
Posts3,029,003
Members99,437
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Please Support Our Advertisers


Faust Harrison 100+ Steinways

Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver

 Best of Piano Buyer

PianoTeq Bechstein
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads



 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter |


copyright 1997 - 2020 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.4