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Hi all,

We recently moved and got a new piano tuner. Unfortunately, we weren’t very happy with our the way they tuned the piano - there was way too much dissonance amongst the intervals. He said that he had tuned it to give it more of the feel of a grand (it’s a Yamaha YUS 1 upright), so it would feel more spacious, so I am guessing that he gave it a much wider octave stretch.

I asked my old piano tuner how they used to tune, so I could ask the new one to tune it the same way, and they said that they used the ‘Average’ setting on Veritune. The Veritune website describes this as “Moderate stretch. A generic style, probably the best choice for the majority of tunings“, but doesn’t include additional information beyond that.

How can I describe this type of tuning to my new piano tuner so that they are able to tune the piano similarly? Unfortunately, the new tuner doesn’t use the same Veritune program. I think I’d want to give them the stretch points? Does anyone have a sense of what the stretch points would be for this type of tuning?

We also ended up having a bit of a voicing catastrophe last time where he ended up rubbing all of the hammers with a little brush (though we didn’t ask him to revoice it), which completely changed the character of the piano, and made it so that we couldn’t have an aggressive attack at all. It felt like a completely different piano! It became almost unplayable with how hard we had to hit the attack to get the same colour range as before. It was a huge bummer particularly since we enjoy playing so much Beethoven and the like, which just didn’t lend itself well to the new character. We think he has a better sense of what we’re looking for, though, and will make sure to confirm that he isn’t drastically changing the voicing on the piano - it seems that a little bit of evening out is to be expected?

I’m still a little torn about whether it would make sense to work with another tuner, given that there were several things we were unhappy with, though he did end up coming back and fixing the voicing situation, so I am thinking that we might be able to get something that we’re happy with by better describing what we are looking for. Would appreciate any help in that regard!

Does the new tuner use any sort of tuning program? Which one would be helpful information!

This may sound like gobbledeegook, but generally speaking, using the Average Verituner setting, the temperament is tuned to a slightly wide 4:2 octave type (1/3 beat/second). Going up from there the program transitions to first a slightly wide 2:1 octave, then a slightly wide double octave. The top octave or so is a pure double octave. Going down from the middle the program focuses on a slightly wide 6:3 octave type.

It might not be a bad idea to seek out another tech with a Verituner if you like the tunings calculated with that app...

Ron Koval

Greetings,

It is difficult, if not impossible,to be satisfied by the work of someone that isn't trusted. Tuners come in a wide variety of skill, experience, and presence. Some are aces and some are quacks, most falling on a continuum between extremes. Prices from down there to over the moon, and there is the perfect customer out there for each. Finding a tech you will be happy with, and whose skill, experience and presence leave you with the joy of playing rather than tentative suspicion may be difficult. Try another, (the 2nd may be a more expensive tech, but you are looking for better results). I would say to trust your musical sense, intuition, and feeling when assaying a tech you are considering as our 'gut' feelings about others is correct far more often than not.
Regards,

I would mildly suggest that you ask your next tuner, however he/she tunes, ear, app or anything else, to give you beatless double octaves as it goes up. This will free you from all the stress sensations that accompany the modern obsession with detuning by stretching octaves...which is what creates the dissonance.
Get a nice, proper tuning on there and hear your piano become all musical again!
Nick

Do you have the same piano as before the move?
How did it sound right after the move, before it was re-tuned?

Yes, I have the same piano. Before it was re-tuned it sounded great, it was tuned right before it was moved. It’s under 2 years old and we’ve been extremely happy with it, it’s definitely the tuner.

How did it sound in the new location before the tuning? It's possible that you could hear things in the piano in this room that you didn't notice in it's previous location. I'm not trying to discount what you're saying, just offering some alternatives.

Octave stretch is defined according how the partials of the lower and higher notes of an octave are aligned with respect to each other.

A 2:1 octave means that the first partial of the higher note is tuned to have zero beats with the second partial of the lower note.

Similar descriptions hold for 4:2, 6:3, 4:1 etc. type octaves.

Test notes can be used to find out the type of the octave.

For example, the test note for a 4:2 octave is the major third below the lower note.

Consider the A3-A4 octave. The test note is the F3 below A3. If the major third interval F3-A3 beats at the same rate with the major tenth interval F3-A4, then the octave is a 4:2 octave. If the major third beats slightly slower than the major tenth then the octave is slightly wider than a 4:2 octave and vice versa.

Other types of octaves can be test similarly using the test note for that type octave.

I hate to even broach the subject, but it is possible if the new tuner didn't use some sort of piano tuning app, what you felt/heard might have been a problem with the temperament, or how the octave is divided up rather than the stretch of the piano. In other words, not equal temperament, but some unequal facsimile. Unfortunately, some typical mistakes will lead to a situation where the key of C will be all 'busy' sounding, while the C# triad or B chord may sound smooth and calm...

See if there are big differences between the major chords in the middle of your piano?

Ron Koval

Ok then you are probably just as picky about the tuning as I am...

I also tried a number of different tuners in the past, and they all just fall short. My favourite tuner also uses a tuning tool but he also listens to his ears. Somehow he gets the pitch both stable and the chords just resonating perfectly. The other tuners did a decent job but often they were less stable and the chords just a tad less nice.


Maybe you can find a concert-grade tuner but this may become difficult and expensive.

Alternatively, and maybe the only option, is to get the same tuning device as your favorite tuner and learn how to tune yourself.

Perhaps you call call your previous tuner and ask him what his approach to stretching octaves was and relay that info to a new tuner...?
Nick

Using a brass brush on the hammers is quite normal and yes it will soften the sound, but with a few hours of playing this softness greatly reduces. It definitely would not be permanent. Stretching is a natural effect and its amount is directly related to the length and diameter of the strings. So the stretch is an effect that is automatically accommodated as the tuner tunes. You cannot apply a stretch that a concert grand has, to an upright.
Ian

I agree with Ed Foote's advice.

The piano just simply needs to be IN-TUNE! Customers shouldn't have to figure out octave stretch.

Find a tuner who knows how to tune.

Pianomorning,

I'm curious as to whether you engaged in a significant amount of discussion with this new tech BEFORE he started tuning (e.g. likes/dislikes, previous tuner, bright/mellow, music preferences, etc.)

When this happens to me, no start to get the idea that there "might" be a problem. In the past I made assumptions about the clients preference (some right, some wrong [mistake]). I eventually decided to simply tell them: "Rather than me trying to figure out your concerns, how about I simply tune the piano the way I think it will sound best, and if you like it, we're good...if you don't like it you can find someone else who does things differently". Since then I have never made a "mistake".

Peter Grey Piano Doctor

Tuning an upright with a large stretch to imitate the spaciousness of a grand is a theoretical concept. It doesn’t work in real life. It just sounds like it might be a good idea. It’s not.

If a tuner is willing to purposefully tune a piano with that much dissonance, they are not noticing that the piano is not able to function musically. Chances are, they will never be able to tune the piano so that it is harmonious with itself. Harmony needs to flow and melodies need to sing when the piano is played. Get someone who knows how to tune a piano so that it works.

Pianomorning,

It's been almost ten days. What's happening? Have you solved your problem?

Peter Grey Piano Doctor