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It's hard for me to know what has transpired with the Roland sound. Search high and search low ... there are just no Roland pianos to be found, save for the low-end FP-series at my local Sam Ash.

Around here it's all Kawai and Yamaha. From what I can gather from a look around my soon-to-be-home of Pittsburgh North, the situation is even tighter there. It's all Yamaha ... save for a long drive to Ohio where a Kawai shop makes its home.

The last time I touched a Roland was nearly ten years ago at a Sam Ash store in South Florida. The V sounded pretty good, though it's much too knob-laden for my likes.

How's the situation in your locale?

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*math.

Thanks for the input on Roland V pianos! smile

Last edited by MelodicRevengexX; 09/26/20 08:54 AM.

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Originally Posted by MelodicRevengexX
I'm not trying to lie to people, if anyone asks, I'm going to PROUDLY say I'm using a Fantom 8 to fake a real grand piano ...

That's your problem. No one will ever ask to give you a chance to be proud of your keyboard! Who goes to a peformance to see a Fantom 8? Don't we have music stores for that? And how many people like Fantom 8's voices? Or Kawai's voices?

That's why the performances like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MI3-5wUPrpk

are boring. Roland sound synthetic. It doesn't matter if it is $1k or $10k.

It's like taking my MP7SE to the stage and telling the audiance that listen to the C key of my keyboard... it fools you.

This is the best way to get tomatoes in my face.


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Originally Posted by MelodicRevengexX
Also, my goal is to NOT waste money that I don't have, for a end product that I can get at home from my Roland Fantom 8, for free.

Originally Posted by MelodicRevengexX
Yes, if you are a musician, you are an artist, and if you feel otherwise, you don't know the first thing about being a real musician, because music is art, and if you are creating it, guess what? You're an artist. smile

That being said dude just get them Fantom 8 and show us how awesome it is. We are in COVID-19 times so if it may take a very long time to get it if the 3rd wave hits.


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Originally Posted by EVC2017
Originally Posted by Abdol
Originally Posted by MelodicRevengexX
...My end goal is to fool peoples hears, and never have to waste money renting a grand piano in some random studio for a ton of money that can go to better things...

LOL what kind of goal is this? If are looking to fool people and get their recognition you're barking up the wrong tree.

No one will ever care. I think the only person you'll fool is yourself.

Abdol nailed it. In an very precise, accurate and, more importantly, concise way. thumb

I think the OP is in what is known as paralisys by analisys. Maybe one day he will buy anything and start making (and enjoying) music instead of wildly dreaming. wink

Honestly my feedbacks may sound harsh but I'm trying to honest almost always. Since some folks may not know me they take it personal and things go south.

Last edited by Abdol; 09/26/20 10:02 AM.

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Originally Posted by Abdol
Honestly my feedbacks may sound harsh but I'm trying to honest almost always. Since some folks may not know me they take it personal and things go south.


Yes, sometimes they are harsh, but it is not the case of this one, IMO. If you referred to my use of "concise", I was teasing the OP's tendency to write looooooooong pieces to state what could be otherwise expressed in a few lines. At least so it looked to me the last time I bothered to read one of his posts.

Last edited by EVC2017; 09/26/20 10:56 AM.

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Originally Posted by MelodicRevengexX
*math.
Math vs. maths depends on where you live. Different truncations of mathematics.

Anyway, here's some evidence that V-Piano has changed since the original (though it does not say anything about Fantom vs RD2000)...

from https://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/roland-fantom

Quote
Fans of the V-Piano will be glad to know that the instrument has been revived and now lives on inside the new Fantom. Benefiting from new coding and improved sound quality...

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Originally Posted by MelodicRevengexX
*math.

Thanks for the input on Roland V pianos! smile

Maths.

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Such a hateful, toxic community this forum has currently. I know some people here are great people, but most people here are wow.. just.. wow. Hateful, angry, and delusional people supporting hateful, angry, and delusional people. It's sad that such a horrible musical community like this has thrived online for so long. I see why they have the reputation they have online. This is the only online music community where you can get laughed at and have people attempt to bully you because you asked a long musical question.. it's disgraceful and disgusting. If you're someone reading this in the future, ignore these hateful people when it comes to being creative, career advice, or art. They are wrong. Severely, embarrassingly wrong, delusional, and artistically/creatively ignorant to extremes, to the point that it's sad that people can make it to that point in life as musicians and as people in general. These hateful people you see here arguing and punching the air because they aren't happy in life don't have a real creative future in music more than just being a music teacher or studio musician. Which is fine if that's your end goal, more power to you is so, there's nothing wrong with that, but.. if you want to change the world? Dare to dream, and dare to dream bigger than anyone else ever has, and ignore those who laugh at you and attempt to belittle you, because you can do anything that you put your heart, mind, and soul to. <3

Shout out to the people in this thread, AND on this forum, who are actually really nice people who love having calm on topic conversations. You're all awesome and a breathe of fresh air.

At the hateful people who seem to be angry inside of themselves so much so, that they feel the need to randomly treat people like crap online for no reason, and attempt to bully them for seeking knowledge, or not agreeing with their views or opinions, I hope you find joy and love in life again. It exists. Don't give up. smile



I won't be replying to any more hate comments. Ever. You will be talking to the air, because I'll just block you forever. lol I reject that from my life. smile I'm here to learn and grow as a musician. That's it.


Feel free to keep talking about Roland V pianos everyone! I love this topic, and it's very interesting and really cool to me. grin

Last edited by MelodicRevengexX; 09/27/20 02:17 AM.

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Originally Posted by johnstaf
Roland's piano modelling has improved quite a bit in terms of realism, but the V-Piano has its own sound that some like. It's a bit like the DX7 piano sounds in the '80s, which weren't used because they sounded the same as a real piano.

Action-wise I prefer Roland, but I use a sample library for sound generation.

I agree! The V-piano' s own sound has an idiosyncratic feature which combined with how it plays, creates a playing experience that's addictive. I think if you judge it against the sound of a real grand, then the instrument seems past it; however, if you see it as an instrument in its own right, it's very fun and interesting to play.

Shame that same feeling just doesn't happen with the later Roland modelling. Roland really need to work on sound clarity (to compete with binaural sampling) and expanding the dynamic range so the boxy sound quality is resolved. Also, they need to include decent headphone amps in all their models.


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Just reading what you wrote about Rolands V piano sound and feel gets me so excited to own a Fantom 8 Doug. grin Is the headphone jack good on the Fantom 8? or is it just overly compressed on the RD-2000? Also, are the stereo line outs on the RD-2000 and Fantom 8 good too? or do they suffer from over compression as well?

Last edited by MelodicRevengexX; 09/27/20 03:54 AM.

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Originally Posted by MelodicRevengexX
Just reading what you wrote about Rolands V piano sound and feel gets me so excited to own a Fantom 8 Doug. grin Is the headphone jack good on the Fantom 8? or is it just overly compressed on the RD-2000? Also, are the stereo line outs on the RD-2000 and Fantom 8 good too? or do they suffer from over compression as well?

I spent a few minutes on the Fantom 8 and the Montage. TBH, it was a surface play, as the complexity of these instruments would have warranted their own 2 hour session each, and my interests were to determine the best stage piano for myself, and to get a new objective experience of the various actions and sound systems. The Fantom was way out of budget.

I do not recall being blown away by the Fantom 8 piano sounds; however, I might have tried only a small number---with headphones only!

I have had conversations with Bruce on this matter of headphone amp inadequacy. In designing their pianos, not sure that Roland cared much for headphone sound quality: I think it wise to either test the instrument by connecting to monitors, or, to duel test both the instrument and either a headphone amp, or a mixer that contains a headphone amp.

Bear in mind that the V-piano was rrp £5,000 and aimed directly at home use for professionals who needed a piano that behaved more like a real piano (in terms of dynamic response and connected-ness). The Fantom 8 owners are probably more likely to own studio monitors, PC, DAC/audio-interface and mixers etc.

I would first find a V-piano to test before testing the Fantom: one connected to nice monitors! Get an idea of the original instrument, so you can compare the newer modelling to the old, and so you can know whether or not the V-piano sounds on the Fantom are playing like a V-piano (or better/worse). I honestly don't believe I know, because the headphone experiences with the RD2000, LX807 were so disappointing. What surprised me was that the CLP685 blew the LX807 out of the water viz. overall experience---the Yamaha having much more clarity and sound-stage, without any of the compressed dynamic range of the Roland. I feel this compressed dynamic range is a feature of the newer LX800 series and the RD2000; however, after conversations with Bruce, I am open to the idea that a better headphone amp / and better monitors for example, the instrument is capable of more.

My feeling is that people who buy the Fantom have a much greater need from their instruments than those shopping for a stage piano: therefore, is piano likely to be a key focus? I guess I'm trying to temper your excitement enough for you to make objective comparison and not to expect that which you've not established objectively yet (viz. comparison of the V-piano to the Fantom). On the other hand, the Kronos, Montage, Fantom etc., these are exceptional instruments for many reasons, and there is plenty of reasons to be excited to play test them---child in a sweet shop stuff!.

Kind regards,

Doug.

Last edited by Doug M.; 09/27/20 04:57 AM.

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Originally Posted by Doug M.
I have had conversations with Bruce on this matter of headphone amp inadequacy. In designing their pianos, not sure that Roland cared much for headphone sound quality: I think it wise to either test the instrument by connecting to monitors, or, to duel test both the instrument and either a headphone amp, or a mixer that contains a headphone amp.

Bear in mind that the V-piano was rrp £5,000 and aimed directly at home use for professionals who needed a piano that behaved more like a real piano (in terms of dynamic response and connected-ness).
As everyone here knows, I've had my V-Piano for a decade, and been playing it on average three hours a day (my maths isn't up to calculating the hours spent on it, so if someone wants to help me out... whistle).

I've gone through three different headphones with it - the ones the store gifted me with when I bought the V (AKG K271 Mk.II - the best I had until the Grado), Grado SR 325is (much more detailed than the AKG but uncomfortable for prolonged use) and now Sennheiser HD600 (thanks to recommendations here a few years ago - it provides a good balanced sound and is almost as comfortable as the AKG). With none of them do I need to have the volume control knob over the halfway mark (the Grado is the least sensitive) to simulate the volume I get from the C.Bechstein six-foot grand that I perform on every month.

In case anyone doesn't know, the V-Piano has no speakers, so Roland must assume that many - probably most - of its users are likely to be using headphones, like me: I never bothered with buying monitors or speakers for it, as I have neighbours.

I can't speak for later models' headphone amps obviously, bit I can't remember having any problems using my own headphones on them in the stores.

Incidentally (for those who weren't around in 2011, when I posted about the experience), I'm probably the only one here who's played the V-Piano Grand in a concert hall, and the sound - and the feel - of the beast is truly impressive. Within a few seconds, I completely forgot that the sound came from the speakers in its bowels, not strings being struck. It easily filled the hall in the same manner as a nine-foot acoustic concert grand, when the lid was up.


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Originally Posted by Doug M.
Roland really need to work on sound clarity (to compete with binaural sampling)
It may be worth pointing out here that the ONLY inherent advantage of binaural sampling relates to listening with headphones. It's a spatial thing, not a tonal one. Of course they can't do a truly binaurally sampled modeled piano, because modeled pianos aren't sampled at all. Whether the binaural effect itself could be simulated via mathematical modeling sounds like an interesting challange all its own!

Originally Posted by Doug M.
I would first find a V-piano to test before testing the Fantom: one connected to nice monitors! Get an idea of the original instrument, so you can compare the newer modelling to the old, and so you can know whether or not the V-piano sounds on the Fantom are playing like a V-piano (or better/worse).
Well according to that SOS article I posted earlier, the Fantom version is technically improved. Though even if true, there have been plenty of times where someone has preferred the older version of some instrument sound over the newer "better" version. So much of sound is subjective, after all.

In this case, though, the comparison to the original V may be kind of moot, if someone has no intention of even considering buying the old V (because they want something newer or something lighter or something with more sounds, whatever). If that's not under consideration for purchase, than the comparison is only academic.


As for headphones, one issue about the quality of headphone circuitry is that it's not simply about "quality" per se but also about matching. Different impedance headphones match best with different sources which is why, for example, Beyer makes the DT880 in 3 flavors... 32, 250, or 600 ohms. So if you have high quality headphones and they seem to be doing a less than stellar job on a particular DP (i.e. compared to what you were expecting based on how it sounds through quality speakers), it may not be that the DP has inferior headphone electronics, it may be that the impedance of your headphones are not the ideal match for the output of that DP. I would not be surprised if some DPs are optimized for low impedance phones because of how common they are (it's what you'd use for smartphones, for examples), while others may be optimized for high impedance phones (which is generally what you find in pro environments). Also see: https://www.cnet.com/news/headphone...know-about-low-vs-high-impedance-models.

Also, if you're comparing a DP through headphones through the same DP through its own internal speakers, keep in mind that there is often an EQ circuit employed to optimize the sound for those particular speakers. What you're getting out of the headphones can differ either because the headphones are getting a "flat" rather than "EQ'd" version of the sound, or possibly (probably less likely and worse), you could be hearing a sound that has been equalized for those speakers being played back through headphones that shouldn't have the same EQ applied.

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Originally Posted by bennevis
Originally Posted by Doug M.
I have had conversations with Bruce on this matter of headphone amp inadequacy. In designing their pianos, not sure that Roland cared much for headphone sound quality: I think it wise to either test the instrument by connecting to monitors, or, to duel test both the instrument and either a headphone amp, or a mixer that contains a headphone amp.

Bear in mind that the V-piano was rrp £5,000 and aimed directly at home use for professionals who needed a piano that behaved more like a real piano (in terms of dynamic response and connected-ness).
As everyone here knows, I've had my V-Piano for a decade, and been playing it on average three hours a day (my maths isn't up to calculating the hours spent on it, so if someone wants to help me out... whistle).

I've gone through three different headphones with it - the ones the store gifted me with when I bought the V (AKG K271 Mk.II - the best I had until the Grado), Grado SR 325is (much more detailed than the AKG but uncomfortable for prolonged use) and now Sennheiser HD600 (thanks to recommendations here a few years ago - it provides a good balanced sound and is almost as comfortable as the AKG). With none of them do I need to have the volume control knob over the halfway mark (the Grado is the least sensitive) to simulate the volume I get from the C.Bechstein six-foot grand that I perform on every month.

In case anyone doesn't know, the V-Piano has no speakers, so Roland must assume that many - probably most - of its users are likely to be using headphones, like me: I never bothered with buying monitors or speakers for it, as I have neighbours.

I can't speak for later models' headphone amps obviously, bit I can't remember having any problems using my own headphones on them in the stores.

Incidentally (for those who weren't around in 2011, when I posted about the experience), I'm probably the only one here who's played the V-Piano Grand in a concert hall, and the sound - and the feel - of the beast is truly impressive. Within a few seconds, I completely forgot that the sound came from the speakers in its bowels, not strings being struck. It easily filled the hall in the same manner as a nine-foot acoustic concert grand, when the lid was up.

I think the V-piano probably has a better headphone amp, given its cost and PURPOSE than the RD2000.

I don't know what it is about later iterations of Roland modeled piano, but I dislike the newer model, not the sound tone, but the PLAYABILITY and dynamic range--don't know how others feel? Much preferred the V-piano and the LX17 over the LX708.


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Originally Posted by anotherscott
Originally Posted by Doug M.
Roland really need to work on sound clarity (to compete with binaural sampling)
It may be worth pointing out here that the ONLY inherent advantage of binaural sampling relates to listening with headphones. It's a spatial thing, not a tonal one. Of course they can't do a truly binaurally sampled modeled piano, because modeled pianos aren't sampled at all. Whether the binaural effect itself could be simulated via mathematical modeling sounds like an interesting challange all its own!

Originally Posted by Doug M.
I would first find a V-piano to test before testing the Fantom: one connected to nice monitors! Get an idea of the original instrument, so you can compare the newer modelling to the old, and so you can know whether or not the V-piano sounds on the Fantom are playing like a V-piano (or better/worse).
Well according to that SOS article I posted earlier, the Fantom version is technically improved. Though even if true, there have been plenty of times where someone has preferred the older version of some instrument sound over the newer "better" version. So much of sound is subjective, after all.

In this case, though, the comparison to the original V may be kind of moot, if someone has no intention of even considering buying the old V (because they want something newer or something lighter or something with more sounds, whatever). If that's not under consideration for purchase, than the comparison is only academic.


As for headphones, one issue about the quality of headphone circuitry is that it's not simply about "quality" per se but also about matching. Different impedance headphones match best with different sources which is why, for example, Beyer makes the DT880 in 3 flavors... 32, 250, or 600 ohms. So if you have high quality headphones and they seem to be doing a less than stellar job on a particular DP (i.e. compared to what you were expecting based on how it sounds through quality speakers), it may not be that the DP has inferior headphone electronics, it may be that the impedance of your headphones are not the ideal match for the output of that DP. I would not be surprised if some DPs are optimized for low impedance phones because of how common they are (it's what you'd use for smartphones, for examples), while others may be optimized for high impedance phones (which is generally what you find in pro environments). Also see: https://www.cnet.com/news/headphone...know-about-low-vs-high-impedance-models.

Also, if you're comparing a DP through headphones through the same DP through its own internal speakers, keep in mind that there is often an EQ circuit employed to optimize the sound for those particular speakers. What you're getting out of the headphones can differ either because the headphones are getting a "flat" rather than "EQ'd" version of the sound, or possibly (probably less likely and worse), you could be hearing a sound that has been equalized for those speakers being played back through headphones that shouldn't have the same EQ applied.


I tested the Rd2000, LX708, CLP685, Nord Grand, CP88, ES8, CA98, Casio GP510, Fantom and Montage 8 with Sennheiser HD650 (and before with some cheaper cans). The Yamaha was easily the best experience, as far as sound quality is concerned. The Nord and ES8 were both fairly close, as was the Casio. The Roland's just didn't compare well on the day. The 3d sound improved it slightly, but overall, I felt: why is this sound so bad. Bruce later told me that his Rd2000 is so much better after using an external headphone amp.

Whatever the binaural effect does to the CLP685, it still sounds better through speakers than the other models, and the CP88 which has neither the binaural sampling nor resonance effects sounds dull.

Was very good to be able to play all the models at once, as the comparison showed up some key weaknesses, eg, the amplification of the CA98, and the Roland issues.

Last edited by Doug M.; 09/27/20 10:41 AM.

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Originally Posted by Doug M.
I tested the Rd2000, LX708, CLP685, Nord Grand, CP88, ES8, CA98, Casio GP510, Fantom and Montage 8 with Sennheiser HD650 (and before with some cheaper cans). The Yamaha was easily the best experience, as far as sound quality is concerned. The Nord and ES8 were both fairly close, as was the Casio. The Roland's just didn't compare well on the day. The 3d sound improved it slightly, but overall, I felt: why is this sound so bad.
Though as I was saying, it could be because of the impedance of the headphones you were using. It would be interesting, if someone had access to those 32, 250, and 600 oHm Beyers, to see if certain of those piano models sounded better with the low impedance model, while others sounded better with the high.

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Originally Posted by anotherscott
Originally Posted by Doug M.
I tested the Rd2000, LX708, CLP685, Nord Grand, CP88, ES8, CA98, Casio GP510, Fantom and Montage 8 with Sennheiser HD650 (and before with some cheaper cans). The Yamaha was easily the best experience, as far as sound quality is concerned. The Nord and ES8 were both fairly close, as was the Casio. The Roland's just didn't compare well on the day. The 3d sound improved it slightly, but overall, I felt: why is this sound so bad.
Though as I was saying, it could be because of the impedance of the headphones you were using. It would be interesting, if someone had access to those 32, 250, and 600 oHm Beyers, to see if certain of those piano models sounded better with the low impedance model, while others sounded better with the high.

Yes, it's a good idea that.
No idea what impedance the store cans had (probably quite low) but I asked to test the HD650's because I wondered if the problem with the Roland was headphone related.

But only tried cheap and expensive that day.

Last edited by Doug M.; 09/27/20 11:47 AM.

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I have a Fantom 8. I don’t have enough experience messing around with previous iterations of v-pianos but I tweaked one of the sounds to something that sounds pretty good to me, and reminds me of my previous favorite piano sound, the default Supernatural piano of the RD700NX. It’s pretty convincing IMO. Set the keyboard touch to light and turn up the various resonance options (at least to their mid-points) to make it sound a bit more alive.

I do recall the RD2000 having more parameters for adjusting v-pianos, but it has been a while since I played around with one.


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Ah, very cool! Thanks! smile So the preset you made is decently close to a real grand piano in sound you feel? or does it still have hints of digital sound to it? If so, do you think that digital sound is able to disappear by tweaking some more parameters?


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