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Has Rolands V Piano modelling improved in the last 10 years?
#3029058 09/25/20 07:37 PM
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So, I've been taking a look back at this modelling technology. 10 years back. I first found the Roland V piano from 10 years ago, this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LqVBSvOAnYU it sounds beautiful, but still fully digital, then I went to there V piano Grand Piano from 6 years ago, this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JkdhgxEXd6g&t=4s and to me it sounded real.. fully real, but, it sounded kind of dull in a ever so slightly muffled kind of way, kind of like a Yamaha Grand Piano sample that you would find on a cheaper lower end Yamaha keyboard would sound, but of course, better quality than a cheap sample from a lower end keyboard. Then I went to the RD-2000 which came out in 2017, this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4X1aLBXeCo&t=330s and that sounded beautiful, much more brighter and modern sounding, it also sounds more like a baby grand piano than a normal bigger sized grand piano to me but also... half digital sounding once you listen to it for a few minutes. So, lastly, I went to the Fantom 8, this: which came out in 2019, and... apparently, this RD-2000 and the Fantom 8 are supposed to have the exact same V piano technology in it, but I think that is a bit of a stretched truth. It sounds WAY better than the RD-2000, no digital foot print, it sound 1000% fully real, it sounds alive like a real Grand Piano, and the feel on it is told to be amazing with it having the PHA-50 Wood and Plastic Hybrid Structure keys, with Escapement and Ebony/Ivory Feel. Now.. the RD-2000 ALSO has the exact same keys.. yet it lacks realism of sound, so.. keys aren't the issue here.


I personally, in a guess, think that the Fantom 8 just has updated software/firmware, and obviously loads of internal different hardware inside of it that makes the sound that must leave its circuit boards sound 10x better. I'm a firm believer in analogue synths or instruments sounding better, because sound is always combined with hardware, which gives it warmth and more soul and feel to it. Now, change that original hardware and give it a sound card of a computer + make the original sound into a VST .. and you just may get a lack luster sound that poorly emulates the physical version of it. Yea, some may sound amazing, but most don't. There's a big reason why analogue warmth, tube amps, and tape saturation are extremely hard to emulate, even with computers that have amazing internals and sound cards. Many have tried to emulate stuff, just look at the market of guitar amps, keyboards, and electric drums, but.. most fall short for a reason, even with amazing companies like Roland and Yamaha. Here is the RD-2000 vs a Fantom 6 or 7, that has semi weighted keys: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BJKR8E7pl_Y&t=102s Now here is the RD-2000 vs the Fantom 8 with the PHA 50 keys hybrid keys: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2qaRUe7bI0k&t=87s

So far, from what I've encountered, Kawai, some Korgs, and the Roland Fantom 8 are the only ones that give the realest piano like experiance in sound. To be fair though, Korg to me (from what I've heard on Youtube) sounds real in a more of a Elton John type of piano.. like THAT kind of sound, but real. If that even makes sense. lol





What are your personal opinions on Roland's V piano modelling over the past 10 years? Have they improved with age?

Last edited by MelodicRevengexX; 09/25/20 07:38 PM.

If people from hundreds of years ago somehow mastered music theory without the internet...

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Re: Has Rolands V Piano modelling improved in the last 10 years?
MelodicRevengexX #3029064 09/25/20 07:44 PM
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Re: Has Rolands V Piano modelling improved in the last 10 years?
MelodicRevengexX #3029078 09/25/20 08:17 PM
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I think someone here had recognized one of the demo tracks on the latest LX-708 as being the same as an original V-Piano demo track. Short of playing both, that's probably the best way to compare how the piano tone has changed.


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50, Kawai MP11 || Kawai NV-10
Re: Has Rolands V Piano modelling improved in the last 10 years?
Gombessa #3029087 09/25/20 08:57 PM
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I checked out the the Lx-708 here, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0QkkBP07egU and the Roland V Piano here, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6kLVKO0gmlA and I 100% agree that they both sound identical, and ever so slightly alittleeeee digital if you really listen in, but.. the Fantom 8 sounds best still. The Fantom 8 must have a an updated version of Rolands V piano inside, right? It's impossible that something can sound so real, yet maintain the same outdated tech from 10 years ago. I wonder.

Here are the Fantom 8 acoustic pianos alone: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1gNUPX4f6MU and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aMcwDjiHHZQ


If people from hundreds of years ago somehow mastered music theory without the internet...

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Re: Has Rolands V Piano modelling improved in the last 10 years?
MelodicRevengexX #3029089 09/25/20 09:10 PM
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Classical pianists, jazz pianists, rock and blues pianists have different requirements, and I think the V-piano sounds are adjusted based on the target market for the keyboard.


Login name is a tribute to Jan Pieterszoon Sweelinck.
Re: Has Rolands V Piano modelling improved in the last 10 years?
MelodicRevengexX #3029105 09/25/20 09:57 PM
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Try this concert, where the V-Piano Grand is put through its paces in a classical concert by a prize-winner of the Chopin Competition. The piano is recorded just like an acoustic concert grand in the concert hall:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MI3-5wUPrpk


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
Re: Has Rolands V Piano modelling improved in the last 10 years?
Sweelinck #3029106 09/25/20 10:02 PM
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Interesting! and what would those target markets be for the RD 2000 , 10 year V piano, and the Fantom 8?


If people from hundreds of years ago somehow mastered music theory without the internet...

We have no excuse today.
Re: Has Rolands V Piano modelling improved in the last 10 years?
bennevis #3029112 09/25/20 10:42 PM
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The piano sounds really great, but I still hear those veryy small digital frequencies, less than the LX 708, and way less than the RD 2000. Also let's take into account that we can't judge the V grand pianos sound by that video, since it's mic'ed, so, the mics can be EQed, it's also in a grand hall, which alone adds extreme reverb, and as we both know, reverb makes most things sound better, and hides imperfections, most of the time anyways. Plus the people sitting in the grand hall will affect the sound as well, as well as how many people are in there. The piano sound is also going to be bouncing around the room. So, if this where a real none digital grand piano, that video would be a perfect demo showcasing how the piano sounds in a grand hall. That's assuming the potential buyer is going to play it in a grand hall, if not, it's still not a good example for that person. lol Now, since this is a digital piano, I, along with most people will be going line in to our digital interfaces, and getting the none edited by real life surroundings or mics sound. Maybe one day I'll mic my digital piano as such? Who knows. Now... that grand does have speakers on top of it, but.. even so.. the grand hall and people and mic EQ still effects that. That video is also only in 720p.. which degrades the quality for a true demo. That's my main problem researching gear from 10 years ago.. everything is 720p and under on Youtube.. and half of those people record digital racks and keyboards with microphones instead of line ins. Haha People from 10 years from now are SO lucky when they research the gear of today with 4K videos. lol


What are your thoughts on the Fantom 8? I plan on buying that, as I feel it sounds like the MOST realistic digital piano I've ever heard. No signs of digital frequencies.. for once. I want when people here my music that they are completely fooled to think it's a real grand piano. I want a piano that will allow me to NEVER have to spend money renting a Grand piano in some random studio for a few weeks, just to record a song that I can make in my bedroom. Haha and one that allows me to make as many grand pianos as I want, so I never have to worry about finding a grand piano to match my music, I can just make one using the virtual engine, one that sounds 100% real.. for free. lol and I think the Fantom 8 is it.

Here are the Fantom 8 acoustic pianos alone: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1gNUPX4f6MU and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aMcwDjiHHZQ

here is the RD-2000 vs the Fantom 8 with the PHA 50 keys hybrid keys: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2qaRUe7bI0k&t=87s The RD-2000 sounds like a baby grand piano to me, that still sounds semi digital. Which sucks.. because it's a beautiful looking stage piano, but.. I need perfection.. well.. as close to perfection as one can get in 2020 on a semi tight budget.



I look forward to your reply! smile Thanks for chiming in Bennevis!

Last edited by MelodicRevengexX; 09/25/20 10:42 PM.

If people from hundreds of years ago somehow mastered music theory without the internet...

We have no excuse today.
Re: Has Rolands V Piano modelling improved in the last 10 years?
Sweelinck #3029116 09/25/20 10:48 PM
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Also, I plan on playing all types of styles, so I really do need a keyboard that can do it all, and can do it nearest to perfection as one can get in 2020, without sounding digital. I need one that if I can't get a the piano sound I want, I can make it. My end goal is to fool peoples hears, and never have to waste money renting a grand piano in some random studio for a ton of money that can go to better things. I think the Roland Fantom 8 is really the only one out today that can do that successfully and not sound digital in the slightest.


If people from hundreds of years ago somehow mastered music theory without the internet...

We have no excuse today.
Re: Has Rolands V Piano modelling improved in the last 10 years?
MelodicRevengexX #3029135 09/26/20 01:53 AM
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Originally Posted by MelodicRevengexX
...My end goal is to fool peoples hears, and never have to waste money renting a grand piano in some random studio for a ton of money that can go to better things...

LOL what kind of goal is this? If are looking to fool people and get their recognition you're barking up the wrong tree.

No one will ever care. I think the only person you'll fool is yourself.


Kawai MP7SE, Yamaha MOTF XF6, Yamaha WX5, Yamaha Pacifica 112v
Re: Has Rolands V Piano modelling improved in the last 10 years?
MelodicRevengexX #3029186 09/26/20 06:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Abdol
Originally Posted by MelodicRevengexX
...My end goal is to fool peoples hears, and never have to waste money renting a grand piano in some random studio for a ton of money that can go to better things...

LOL what kind of goal is this? If are looking to fool people and get their recognition you're barking up the wrong tree.

No one will ever care. I think the only person you'll fool is yourself.

Abdol nailed it. In an very precise, accurate and, more importantly, concise way. thumb

I think the OP is in what is known as paralisys by analisys. Maybe one day he will buy anything and start making (and enjoying) music instead of wildly dreaming. wink


Kawai ES8, Roland RD2000, Yamaha AG06 mixer, Presonus Eris E5 monitors, Sennheiser HD598SR phones.
Re: Has Rolands V Piano modelling improved in the last 10 years?
MelodicRevengexX #3029187 09/26/20 06:38 AM
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The modeled piano sound---just like sampled sound---is only one fragment of the overall playability and experience. Having spent 2 hours on a V-piano in store with mid-range monitors, I really enjoyed myself.

Sure, the sound doesn't compete with my MP7SE or with most modern samples, however, the instrument draws you in to play it. There are only a few tones on the V-piano I liked, but endless variations you can create using the editor.


The PHAIII keyboard is about as good as the RHII Kawai action (although that might be because of the connection between the sound engine and action).

Since then, the Roland actions have evolved, and the PHA50 on both the RD2000 and Fantom 88 is a better action all round. What I found playing these instruments was a sense of a compressed dynamic range. Bruce from Phily mentioned that the inbuilt headphone amp was the main problem with the RD2000.

I've played the LX17 and the LX708. I found the LX708 disappointing sonically compared to the Yamaha CLP685. I think that I preferred both LX17 and the V piano to my experience on the LX708. Difficult to identify why the newer instrument felt less impressive, but the mind does tend to compare against what it has last heard and not so much against tests done in 2015.

I would say, best visit a store on a quiet day/time.


Instruments: Current - Kawai MP7SE; Past - Kawai MP7, Yamaha PSR7000
Software: Sibelius 7; Neuratron Photoscore Pro 8
Stand: K&M 18953 Table-style Stage Piano Stand
Re: Has Rolands V Piano modelling improved in the last 10 years?
MelodicRevengexX #3029189 09/26/20 06:46 AM
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You guys realize MelodicRevengexX is probably an AI chatbot ?

Re: Has Rolands V Piano modelling improved in the last 10 years?
MelodicRevengexX #3029193 09/26/20 07:05 AM
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I'm not trying to lie to people, if anyone asks, I'm going to PROUDLY say I'm using a Fantom 8 to fake a real grand piano because it sounds THAT awesome, and then say "how COOL is that?! You had no idea right? haha" I'll take pride in playing instruments that seems extremely real but are virtual. I'll take pride in things I feel are cool. Fooling someone doesn't have to have negative connotations, it can just be for fun. Plus who cares if the listener doesn't know it's digital? Plus, do you know how much absolutely weird crap bands like Queen and tool and many, MANY more have done in the studio to make something seem like another thing to their listeners? a LOT. lol By your flawed, uncreative mentality, Rolands V pianos, and Rolands V drums must be satan to you, because their GOAL, a billion dollar companies goal, is to make something digital sound SO REAL, that it fools the listener. That's the whole point of modelling, same with samples. They are meant to fool, trick, and deceive the listeners, but... not in a not harmful or bad way, in an entertaining, and creative way. Rack synth modules for keyboards must just be a box of lies to you huh? Lol

Also, my goal is to NOT waste money that I don't have, for a end product that I can get at home from my Roland Fantom 8, for free.

Here's a tip from someone who knows what their talking about, recognition in music doesn't come from the product you use, but how you use and apply those products to the canvas that you're painting. Who cares if you used hot sauce because you couldn't afford red paint because you're on a tight budget? Is the end product beautiful? If yes, put it up on the wall, and if it's something worth admiring, people will come. smile and if they ask about the red paint, you tell the truth, and you will be admired for your creativity, drive, and passion as an artist, not judged and laughed at because you tried your best. In the end, people will find it just as cool as you do once they find out that what you did. Remember, the entire entertainment business is about giving people away to escape from their problems or relax through loosing themselves in movies, shows, video games, music, etc. So for example, explosions in movies, do you think or feel that they are real, or CGI? Guess what? Most explosions today are CGI, and are MEANT to trick and fool the viewer. Why? to save money because of budget and needing to earn profit in the end. Are the best directors in the world using CGI explosions today? Yea, mostly all of them. Do people know? Nope. Most think a lot of CGI in movies are real practical effects. When the viewer goes on IMBD trivia and reads that that really cool thing they loved in the movie was CGI, do you think they get angry, or find it really cool and a fun fact they now have to share with friends? Yea, people find it cool. Those who get angry are probably just mentally ill in some way, or just don't know how movies are made today. Same applies with music. Making someone think the Fantom 8 is a real grand piano, will be a fun "Did You Know?" fact that they can share with their friends, and only musicians will care honestly.. lol and as long as it sound great, most musicians/ordinary people will only care more about how the instrument was played, utilized, and applied within the context of the song, rather than if it's a real or fake grand piano, and even less about whether they knew or not in the first place. lol In the real world, outside of snobby musician circles who wear top hats and monocles, faking something like that is not a big deal. You earn recognition through what you create, and the final product, not the means of how you create it.

I mean this advice with love, with no means to offend you. Take it or don't, but if you don't, I'm sure someone else reading this in the future will. smile




Don't make things seem so negative that don't have to be. I won't be replying to any more negative comments on this thread, nor site. I just replied to yours, which is rare for me on this site, because I thought it was a very ignorant and reckless thing to say, especially to a musician that's clearly on a semi tight budget, (not that what you said effected me negatively, it didn't. lol but others more easily influenced and ignorant could easily take your comment to heart, and end up wasting A LOT of money, and sabotaging themselves financially due to renting a real piano for a month or more while making a song or album, when they could use that money to instead help get them to where they want to be in life with less work and the same exact end results.) and also, it's just a very uncreative way of thinking as a musician, and especially as an artist above all. Yes, if you are a musician, you are an artist, and if you feel otherwise, you don't know the first thing about being a real musician, because music is art, and if you are creating it, guess what? You're an artist. smile

Last edited by MelodicRevengexX; 09/26/20 07:12 AM.

If people from hundreds of years ago somehow mastered music theory without the internet...

We have no excuse today.
Re: Has Rolands V Piano modelling improved in the last 10 years?
jeffcat #3029197 09/26/20 07:13 AM
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I must be some really smart AI then to form such realistic responses, like this one.. or.. the hundreds of other responses I've posted over the past few years on this site.

Last edited by MelodicRevengexX; 09/26/20 07:16 AM.

If people from hundreds of years ago somehow mastered music theory without the internet...

We have no excuse today.
Re: Has Rolands V Piano modelling improved in the last 10 years?
EVC2017 #3029199 09/26/20 07:19 AM
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This is why I've blocked you, long, long ago. Keep your ignorance of music and creativity outside of my threads. Thanks. smile

Last edited by MelodicRevengexX; 09/26/20 07:19 AM.

If people from hundreds of years ago somehow mastered music theory without the internet...

We have no excuse today.
Re: Has Rolands V Piano modelling improved in the last 10 years?
jeffcat #3029200 09/26/20 07:20 AM
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Originally Posted by jeffcat
You guys realize MelodicRevengexX is probably an AI chatbot ?


Interesting post. I would be willing to discuss about the "A", but dispute the veracity of the "I". ROFL. On a serious note, I do not read his (its?) posts, too long, but I agree, part of the little I read could very well be created by a BS generator.


Kawai ES8, Roland RD2000, Yamaha AG06 mixer, Presonus Eris E5 monitors, Sennheiser HD598SR phones.
Re: Has Rolands V Piano modelling improved in the last 10 years?
MelodicRevengexX #3029201 09/26/20 07:21 AM
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Originally Posted by MelodicRevengexX
I must be some really smart AI then to form such realistic responses, like this one.. or.. the hundreds of other responses I've posted over the past few years on this site.
Indeed, you are not a bot. I work with AI bots and they are usually good at maths.

Regarding the topic - yes, the modeling improved. Personally I dont like the sound of new Rolands but I appreciate they are brave enough to invest in this technology.


Ars non habet osorem nisi ignorantem
Re: Has Rolands V Piano modelling improved in the last 10 years?
MelodicRevengexX #3029212 09/26/20 07:38 AM
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Roland's piano modelling has improved quite a bit in terms of realism, but the V-Piano has its own sound that some like. It's a bit like the DX7 piano sounds in the '80s, which weren't used because they sounded the same as a real piano.

Action-wise I prefer Roland, but I use a sample library for sound generation.

Re: Has Rolands V Piano modelling improved in the last 10 years?
MelodicRevengexX #3029214 09/26/20 07:42 AM
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I think we are dealing with 3 separate issues here.

(1) Has the Roland piano modeling engine, introduced 10 years ago for the V-Piano, been improved/modified over the last 10 years ?
My guess is : Yes. So the same latest version is now incorporated in the RD2000, FP90, LX708 (706 in my case) or Phantom 8 that you can buy today.

(2) Using the same modeling engine, is Roland tweaking different piano sounds for these four different instrument, according to the market targeted by each ?
Of course ! The LX708 customer, looking for an elegant cabinet home instrument, gets 4 sounds labeled "American Grand" 1 & 2, and "European Grand" 1 & 2. No need to specify which brand they are referring to !
The Phantom, which is an expensive do-anything synth, has a long list of 14 modeled pianos, including for sure the four above under different codenames.

(3) Will these instruments, using the same engine and selecting the same modeling implementation, will sound the same ?
Probably no. First because the amplification hardware can be very different, particularly between a built-in cabinet and a stage instrument. Also because the controls available for further fidling the modeled sound are different and will appeal more to some users and not others.


Vincent


Steinway "A". Roland LX 706. Viscount Sonus 45 hybrid organ with 165 real pipes. Harpsichord by Marc Fontaine.
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