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Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On
JoBert #3028785 09/25/20 01:54 AM
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Originally Posted by JoBert
I know how that feels. I have an ebike that is really great for cycling - great build quality, lots of fun to ride. They did a great job on that part. The problem I have is with its limited usefulness for stock car racing. frown

😆

But did this bike come with a manual that describes stock car racing functionality?

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Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On
JoBert #3028885 09/25/20 09:45 AM
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Originally Posted by JoBert
Originally Posted by Seif Maher
I think they were focused on how it sounds as a piano. They did a great job on that part. The problem I have is with it’s sound as an external speaker system.
I know how that feels. I have an ebike that is really great for cycling - great build quality, lots of fun to ride. They did a great job on that part. The problem I have is with its limited usefulness for stock car racing. frown

Your point is 100% valid. At the same time, the way I see it is that there is a customer segment that only needs a piano, and the NV10 satisfies their need to a great extent... To me it is the best digital piano ever made to date, hands down.

On the other hand, there is another customer segment that would like to use the NV10 in different ways as well. Such as connecting it to a DAW and make some music production, maybe orchestral music or other genres. For this segment, the NV10’s speaker system does not fulfill their needs.

At this price point, it would have been great if the NV10 was more versatile and able to work stand-alone without the need for connecting external audio interface, subwoofer, and speakers.

Mainly because aesthetically, I would like to have no external speakers or extra wires and plugs...

It’s not the end of the world, it does not make the NV10 a bad choice, at all. I just mean that with some design and components changes, it can be even better than what it is right now.


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Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On
JoBert #3028891 09/25/20 09:50 AM
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Originally Posted by JoBert
Originally Posted by Seif Maher
I think they were focused on how it sounds as a piano. They did a great job on that part. The problem I have is with it’s sound as an external speaker system.
I know how that feels. I have an ebike that is really great for cycling - great build quality, lots of fun to ride. They did a great job on that part. The problem I have is with its limited usefulness for stock car racing. frown

🤣



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Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On
JoBert #3028939 09/25/20 12:43 PM
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OK guys.

Forget anything I said before. Here is an informed evaluation.

I took some frequency response measurements, using a calibrated mic and REW software, and here are the results.

[Linked Image]

The measurements confirm my first impressions. The NV10 without a subwoofer lacks big time on the low end frequency range.
I added a 12" 400W Polk DSW Pro 660 subwoofer, and VIOLA... The NV10 + Subwoofer sound AMAZING...

My previous concerns about sound clarity were biased by my disappointment with the sound over all (due to the lack of bass).
The quality of the NV10's speakers in mid-high frequency is SPECTACULAR.

I am so happy with the sound.
My rating to the NV10's speaker system without subwoofer was 2/10.
With the subwoofer, it is for sure above 8/10...

If you are interested, I also took some other measurements, without the subwoofer, in different EQ settings (from the NV10's built in EQ).
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]

Before the subwoofer, I was in the mood of: I like the NV10's great action, and I am over happy with the purchase of the NV10.
Now I am in the mood of: WOOOOOOW, this is the best setup ever!!

I wonder how the NV5's frequency response curve looks like with the Soundboard.


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Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On
Seif Maher #3028978 09/25/20 02:43 PM
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I have now listened to the NV5 as well as the NV10. I don't think the bridge between digitals and acoustics is the soundboard. Maybe it will be an important piece, but not the answer. Some other technological advancement is needed from sound engineers to help recreate more authentic acoustic-like sound and projection. If Kawai consulted with enough engineers and offered $$$$ for a solution, teams of engineers at universities would find such a solution.

Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On
kevin5540 #3028991 09/25/20 03:14 PM
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Originally Posted by kevin5540
I lf Kawai consulted with enough engineers and offered $$$$ for a solution, teams of engineers at universities would find such a solution.

Yes they would. The same way Henry Ford got his V8 engine.


"Engineers, I want you to create this."

"What? boss, sorry but that's not realistic, it can't be done."

"Well, do it anyway."

"Seriously Boss, that's impossible"

"i don't care, go work on it now!"

"Sigh.. whatever, we'll work on it"

"Uhm.. Boss?"

"Yes?"

"We succeeded"

Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On
JoBert #3028993 09/25/20 03:21 PM
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In a real piano the soundboard is a huge part of why the piano sounds this way. It has a crown and the strings apply a downbearing force on the crown and that’s so tricky if the force is higher or lower than a tiny window, the sound quality suffers. It’s also why there is a dissipation of sound, etc, there are many scientific papers on that.

And then you have the recorded sample of an entire piano (soundboard included) that you replay through another soundboard which acts just as a speaker for that sound and not as a soundboard.

So, soundboards in digital pianos in the way they are currently used are not a big deal IMO.

Last edited by CyberGene; 09/25/20 03:22 PM.

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Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On
CyberGene #3028996 09/25/20 03:33 PM
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Originally Posted by CyberGene
In a real piano the soundboard is a huge part of why the piano sounds this way. It has a crown and the strings apply a downbearing force on the crown and that’s so tricky if the force is higher or lower than a tiny window, the sound quality suffers. It’s also why there is a dissipation of sound, etc, there are many scientific papers on that.

And then you have the recorded sample of an entire piano (soundboard included) that you replay through another soundboard which acts just as a speaker for that sound and not as a soundboard.

So, soundboards in digital pianos in the way they are currently used are not a big deal IMO.

Makes perfect sense...


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Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On
JoBert #3029009 09/25/20 04:13 PM
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Great results, thanks Seif!

I've absolutely found that Wall EQ significantly boosts the trebel, which on the NV-10 is already quite bright (and way too much so with Wall EQ on).

And I've seriously thought about adding a larger subwoofer to complement the 6" bass driver, so it's really nice to see actual data on this! I haven't done this because I presume a subwoofer attached to the piano's line-out would continue to thump even with headphones connected; have you checked if that's that the case? I don't want to bother having to turn the sub on/off every time I plug/unplug the headphones.


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Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On
Gombessa #3029031 09/25/20 05:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Gombessa
Great results, thanks Seif!

I've absolutely found that Wall EQ significantly boosts the trebel, which on the NV-10 is already quite bright (and way too much so with Wall EQ on).

And I've seriously thought about adding a larger subwoofer to complement the 6" bass driver, so it's really nice to see actual data on this! I haven't done this because I presume a subwoofer attached to the piano's line-out would continue to thump even with headphones connected; have you checked if that's that the case? I don't want to bother having to turn the sub on/off every time I plug/unplug the headphones.

You are welcome...

Yes, the subwoofer will output sound when the headphone is plugged in. This will be a problem when you are using the NV10’s internal sounds.

However, if you are using an audio interface, you can turn down the sound of the monitor out and keep the headphones.


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Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On
CyberGene #3029062 09/25/20 06:40 PM
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Originally Posted by CyberGene
In a real piano the soundboard is a huge part of why the piano sounds this way. It has a crown and the strings apply a downbearing force on the crown and that’s so tricky if the force is higher or lower than a tiny window, the sound quality suffers. It’s also why there is a dissipation of sound, etc, there are many scientific papers on that.

And then you have the recorded sample of an entire piano (soundboard included) that you replay through another soundboard which acts just as a speaker for that sound and not as a soundboard.

So, soundboards in digital pianos in the way they are currently used are not a big deal IMO.

Indeed, instead of recording pianos with microphones, we sample strings directly at the bridge with piezoelectric sensors. Then replay those samples directly into the soundboard of another piano using transducers, recreating the exact soundboard reaction of the original piano without having the actual strings present and just as loud and neighbor-disturbing.

I call this invention the "analog piano". wink


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Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On
JoBert #3029138 09/26/20 01:18 AM
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Seif, happy to hear you've found a setup which will undoubtedly skyrocket your enjoyment of the Novus (either as piano or for general audio purpose)!

Also, it's always nice to see some raw facts to complement the subjectivity in describing sound with words.

I'm pretty sure it's not that difficult to significantly improve the acoustic experience of a digital with some external setup. A lot of forum members here already do. The technology and knowledge about speakers is mature and delivers in all kind of situations (in function of the budget most of the time, but not necessarily). I'm still amazed by the sound I get with the relatively cheap 2.1 computer speakers I got 15 years ago, which I actually use as regular "hifi" speakers (yeah, I'm far from being an audiophile user wink. They roughly costed 1/60th of the Novus price, but yet, when I play Kirov's recording of the Rite of Spring and close my eyes I could just forget I'm in my living room.

Digital piano sound engineers need to achieve the same thing with the additional constraints of having to stuff everything in a cabinet (which for the sake of esthetics should also be pleasing to the eyes) and a limited budget. I'm sure that's an interesting challenge.

On the other hand I think there could be a market for an external speakers set (sold separately or not) specially designed for digital piano playing. For those who for whatever reasons don't want to choose their setup themselves, this would save a lot of time and buying decisions.


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Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On
Seif Maher #3029145 09/26/20 01:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Seif Maher
OK guys.

Forget anything I said before. Here is an informed evaluation.

I took some frequency response measurements, using a calibrated mic and REW software, and here are the results.
This is AMAZING. Thank you for your work smile

Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On
Seif Maher #3029153 09/26/20 02:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Seif Maher
[Linked Image]

The measurements confirm my first impressions. The NV10 without a subwoofer lacks big time on the low end frequency range.
I added a 12" 400W Polk DSW Pro 660 subwoofer, and VIOLA... The NV10 + Subwoofer sound AMAZING...

It may sound "amazing" to you, but does it still sound like a piano?

Here's the frequency response someone recorded from an acoustic 6' grand piano. To be honest, to me (as an amateur in this field) that looks much closer to the NV10's original curve than the curve with added subwoofer. It certainly doesn't have this huge boost in the low frequencies, and it even has a similar "dip" between 40-100. (Granted, it's from a 6' piano, but I have my doubts that a 9' concert grand would have that much more bass that it would close that huge gap to the subwoofer's curve).

[Linked Image]
(Image from here: https://rtaylor.sites.tru.ca/2017/01/05/digital-piano-reproduction-frequency-response/)

I wonder how realistic this quest for a huge bass sound really is, and if it isn't fueled more by an audiophile's enthusiasm for the "fattest sound" than by what an acoustic piano really sounds like?
Maybe the engineers at Kawai actually knew what they were doing?

To be clear: I'm not saying that the NV10 sound is perfect, or exactly like that of an acoustic or anything like that. But I have a lingering feeling that with its original speaker configuration it is actually closer to the sound of a medium sized acoustic than it is with the artificially enhanced bass from an added subwoofer. Even if that woofer makes it sound "amazing" (which I don't doubt).

P.S. I agree with Gombessa, that the Wall EQ should be switched off.

P.P.S. Why are we now also talking about violas, in addition to pianos? wink

Last edited by JoBert; 09/26/20 02:45 AM.

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Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On
JoBert #3029157 09/26/20 03:10 AM
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To add to the above (can't edit the post anymore), let me quote from that article I linked:

Quote
But what about that 28Hz fundamental?
The note A0 does have a 28Hz fundamental, but very little energy is generated at that frequency. Actually the sound pressure is dominated by the 4th harmonic (at about 110Hz), which in my measurements is 35dB louder than the fundamental and 2nd and 3rd harmonics. Our hearing apparatus perceives the 28Hz pitch via the missing fundamentalmissing fundamental phenomenon, but the tone isn’t really present and we don’t need to reproduce it. The same is true an octave up at A1: the fundamental (at 54Hz) measures 35 dB below the 2nd harmonic.


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Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On
floknot #3029164 09/26/20 03:36 AM
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Originally Posted by floknot
Seif, happy to hear you've found a setup which will undoubtedly skyrocket your enjoyment of the Novus (either as piano or for general audio purpose)!

Also, it's always nice to see some raw facts to complement the subjectivity in describing sound with words.

Thank you so much Floknot...

Originally Posted by floknot
I'm pretty sure it's not that difficult to significantly improve the acoustic experience of a digital with some external setup. A lot of forum members here already do. The technology and knowledge about speakers is mature and delivers in all kind of situations (in function of the budget most of the time, but not necessarily). I'm still amazed by the sound I get with the relatively cheap 2.1 computer speakers I got 15 years ago, which I actually use as regular "hifi" speakers (yeah, I'm far from being an audiophile user wink. They roughly costed 1/60th of the Novus price, but yet, when I play Kirov's recording of the Rite of Spring and close my eyes I could just forget I'm in my living room.

I totally agree... The ultimate goal is that the listening experience enhance your mood, make you feel like you are in different place... As if you are in a great concert hall or in a small room surrounded by the artists playing next to you... It is when the speakers disappear, and your subconscious mind does not perceive their presence for a couple of minutes... They call it Nirvana smile

This can be achieved on entry level speakers. The more you adjust the setup and the settings to your room and to your liking, the more likely you can achieve a good listening experience.


Originally Posted by floknot
Digital piano sound engineers need to achieve the same thing with the additional constraints of having to stuff everything in a cabinet (which for the sake of esthetics should also be pleasing to the eyes) and a limited budget. I'm sure that's an interesting challenge.

On the other hand I think there could be a market for an external speakers set (sold separately or not) specially designed for digital piano playing. For those who for whatever reasons don't want to choose their setup themselves, this would save a lot of time and buying decisions.

Kawai did a great job with the NV10’s internal piano sounds... It is very close to baby or mid-sized grand as JoBert mentioned. I just find it more convenient to have one device that works great out of the box, as a piano and as a music speaker system, without so many modifications... Regarding the parameters you mentioned that the designers are restricted with, I “think” that at this price range, adding a more powerful subwoofer does not ruin the budget.

1) I believe Kawai didn’t do it because they were focused only on Piano.
2) I also believe the existing woofer is capable of producing more bass. It may be an EQ setting or a limitation from the amplifier. Low frequency require much more power than high frequency, and this power costs a little bit of money, but more importantly require heat dissipation to cool it down, a powerful transformer, etc...

If you will consider buying a subwoofer for your NV10, I would recommend the SVS SB2000. It is compact, more than powerful as a companion to the NV10, it comes in matching finish, it can be controlled from front panel buttons, it has a display to let you what settings are dialed in, and it can be easily controlled via a mobile app.


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Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On
JoBert #3029171 09/26/20 04:30 AM
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Originally Posted by JoBert
It may sound "amazing" to you, but does it still sound like a piano?

No, I find that if I am playing piano only, I would rather turn of the subwoofer, or put it on a very low volume setting just to compliment the NV10 a little but. I need more time to test it though. But for piano, the NV10 is good on it’s own, and it doesn’t “need” a subwoofer.


I read the article, and please correct me if I am wrong. This frequency response curve plots the average of Richard Taylor’s playing. Which makes perfect sense. We play more on mid-frequency that we do on low frequency.

For the type of music I play, I would say that I play one low note in every bar, or maybe less, and much more than 1 in mid and high frequencies. Thus, the average will show less low frequency than mid and high frequencies.

If I play so many notes in low frequency, especially if the sustain is on, it would sound terrible.

If based on this we consider that we don’t need a speaker system capable of playing low frequencies, what will happen is that these “fewer” low notes will have not have the same power and accordingly the artistic/emotional effect on the playing.

The frequency response curve that I measured is calculated in a totally different methodology. Instead of recording a whole piece, and then taking the average of 0.5 second intervals, it runs a one continuous (same amplitude) frequency sweep. Starting from 10 Hz to 20,000 Hz. Then using a calibrated mic, it reads the output of the speakers, in dB. If the speakers produce more treble or low frequency, it will immediately show on the graph. If you look at the other graphs of different EQ settings, you will find that graphs are perfectly aligned with the EQ setting. Which indicates that the measurement was done correctly.

The NV10 has more than a -10dB dip in the sub 160Hz. This is a big deal. In any 2.1 stereo system, you typically bass manage your speakers in this range, and you hand over this range to the subwoofer to handle. Or you buy a much more expensive speakers with powerful woofers that can handle low frequencies.

The fact that these notes are played/produced less often than mid and high frequencies, does not mean that they are not as important. This may be true if you will only play cymbals, but if you have a string bass, it will be filtered out.

Originally Posted by JoBert
I wonder how realistic this quest for a huge bass sound really is, and if it isn't fueled more by an audiophile's enthusiasm for the "fattest sound" than by what an acoustic piano really sounds like?

This pretty much depends on your listening environment, the type of music you are listening to, and your personal taste. If you are in a large room, or a room that is open to the kitchen and a long corridor, you will definitely need more bass power to be able fill this big space and end up with a flat and transparent sound. Or maybe a modified sound if this is what you like.

Sometimes you may need it to sound good in different locations of the room, not only in front of the piano, and here the room design is the major player. It may dictate the need for 2 subwoofers.

Originally Posted by JoBert
P.S. I agree with Gombessa, that the Wall EQ should be switched off.
I believe this will 100% depend on your room design, and the materials and finishes on your walls and the floor.

Originally Posted by JoBert
P.P.S. Why are we now also talking about violas, in addition to pianos? wink

Hahahaha... I am sorry, my bad... I meant to say VOILA!!! To express that suddenly I became very happy with the sound smile

Last edited by Seif Maher; 09/26/20 04:33 AM.

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Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On
JoBert #3029217 09/26/20 06:56 AM
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It looks like it's not my day smile

Right after I figured out my concerns about the sound, I find this:


This is my NV10, not a random video on YouTube.

Any help from the forum's experts about what might be going wrong and how to fix it will be highly appreciated.

Thanks,


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Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On
JoBert #3029219 09/26/20 07:01 AM
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This notion of using a subwoofer with a piano seems odd.

A bass guitar needs a strong low end.

But a piano does not. JoBert's referenced wiki item on missing fundamental describes how and why. And my ears confirm.

Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On
Seif Maher #3029223 09/26/20 07:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Seif Maher
It looks like it's not my day smile

Right after I figured out my concerns about the sound, I find this:


This is my NV10, not a random video on YouTube.

Any help from the forum's experts about what might be going wrong and how to fix it will be highly appreciated.

Thanks,

Probably the hammer rest rail is loose (and high). Has been discussed in this thread already and there are pictures too. If so, just needs to be screwed.

Last edited by CyberGene; 09/26/20 07:11 AM.

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