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Re: If piano teaching were compared to flight instruction
Candywoman #3029484 09/27/20 06:52 AM
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I just thought of another difference.

Would you give piano lessons to somebody who didn't own a piano and couldn't practice, except at the weekly lesson?

Would you give flight lessons to somebody who didn't own their own plane, and couldn't practice during the week? Hee, hee.


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Re: If piano teaching were compared to flight instruction
TimR #3029493 09/27/20 07:46 AM
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Originally Posted by TimR
I just thought of another difference.

Would you give piano lessons to somebody who didn't own a piano and couldn't practice, except at the weekly lesson?

Would you give flight lessons to somebody who didn't own their own plane, and couldn't practice during the week? Hee, hee.

If learning to play the piano only took 20 hrs of instructor training, and 10 hrs of solo learning like flying does, most piano teachers would be happy to teach someone without an instrument. Her, hee

https://www.firstflight.com/private-pilot-requirements/


"Music, rich, full of feeling, not soulless, is like a crystal on which the sun falls and brings forth from it a whole rainbow" - F. Chopin
"I never dreamt with my own two hands I could touch the sky" - Sappho

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Re: If piano teaching were compared to flight instruction
keystring #3029531 09/27/20 09:36 AM
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Originally Posted by keystring
Originally Posted by rkzhao
Originally Posted by joplinlover
We need to stop thinking of piano as something only for geniuses and the very gifted.

I don't think anyone thinks that, but we need to set realistic expectations.

Average or below average kids shouldn't be held to the same standards as gifted children. That's the first step in keeping learning joyful.
Rkzhao, I'm trying to get a proper perspective on the various things you've been writing. Do you teach? Do you teach piano or music? Or are these more general ideas?


He answered this question yesterday, when it was asked.


"Music, rich, full of feeling, not soulless, is like a crystal on which the sun falls and brings forth from it a whole rainbow" - F. Chopin
"I never dreamt with my own two hands I could touch the sky" - Sappho

It's ok to be a Work In Progress
Re: If piano teaching were compared to flight instruction
dogperson #3029582 09/27/20 12:02 PM
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Originally Posted by dogperson
He answered this question yesterday, when it was asked.
Looks like I missed it, and looks like the asking person who was answered was me. Thanks for pointing me there (sort of).

Re: If piano teaching were compared to flight instruction
keystring #3029592 09/27/20 12:26 PM
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Originally Posted by keystring
Originally Posted by dogperson
He answered this question yesterday, when it was asked.
Looks like I missed it, and looks like the asking person who was answered was me. Thanks for pointing me there (sort of).


Sorry it felt like ‘sort of’ pointing you to the response. Thought it would be helpful.


"Music, rich, full of feeling, not soulless, is like a crystal on which the sun falls and brings forth from it a whole rainbow" - F. Chopin
"I never dreamt with my own two hands I could touch the sky" - Sappho

It's ok to be a Work In Progress
Re: If piano teaching were compared to flight instruction
Candywoman #3029617 09/27/20 02:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Candywoman
Both highly skilled teachers and poor teachers end up with doorknobs. Actually, I bet poor teachers end up with fewer doorknobs because they have better marketing skills. They don't know what they don't know, so they very proudly put up their ads, often stating, only taking beginners up to level "x" pupils. And humble parents with bright kids do respond to those ads.

Whereas, highly skilled teachers know what they don't know and have some trouble articulating what makes them unique. And parents shy away from benefitting from their high qualifications. They don't want to spend the money, or don't think their child is good enough.

There are so many things wrong with this post, I don't know where to begin.

Some of the highly skilled teachers wouldn't even take doorknobs. You'd have to audition to get into their studios.

Also, there are parents who deliberately seek out highly-qualified teachers, despite the fact their children have absolutely no musical ability or desire to learn.


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Re: If piano teaching were compared to flight instruction
AZNpiano #3029620 09/27/20 02:42 PM
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Originally Posted by AZNpiano
Originally Posted by Candywoman
Both highly skilled teachers and poor teachers end up with doorknobs. Actually, I bet poor teachers end up with fewer doorknobs because they have better marketing skills. They don't know what they don't know, so they very proudly put up their ads, often stating, only taking beginners up to level "x" pupils. And humble parents with bright kids do respond to those ads.

Whereas, highly skilled teachers know what they don't know and have some trouble articulating what makes them unique. And parents shy away from benefitting from their high qualifications. They don't want to spend the money, or don't think their child is good enough.

There are so many things wrong with this post, I don't know where to begin.
Always start at the very beginning. A very good place to start.

I tell all my students that.

Even Julie Andrews tells her charges that:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=drnBMAEA3AM


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
Re: If piano teaching were compared to flight instruction
dogperson #3029623 09/27/20 03:01 PM
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Originally Posted by dogperson
Thought it would be helpful.
It was.

Re: If piano teaching were compared to flight instruction
AZNpiano #3029647 09/27/20 04:12 PM
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Originally Posted by AZNpiano
Originally Posted by Candywoman
Both highly skilled teachers and poor teachers end up with doorknobs. Actually, I bet poor teachers end up with fewer doorknobs because they have better marketing skills. They don't know what they don't know, so they very proudly put up their ads, often stating, only taking beginners up to level "x" pupils. And humble parents with bright kids do respond to those ads.

Whereas, highly skilled teachers know what they don't know and have some trouble articulating what makes them unique. And parents shy away from benefitting from their high qualifications. They don't want to spend the money, or don't think their child is good enough.

There are so many things wrong with this post, I don't know where to begin.

Some of the highly skilled teachers wouldn't even take doorknobs. You'd have to audition to get into their studios.

Also, there are parents who deliberately seek out highly-qualified teachers, despite the fact their children have absolutely no musical ability or desire to learn.

Yep, my talented child's very good, highly qualified teacher requires an audition and/or trial period. They don't put up with doorknobs or even average to above average students.

Re: If piano teaching were compared to flight instruction
Candywoman #3029665 09/27/20 04:51 PM
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There's a place for everyone.

Each person displays a range of skills in different areas.
A person may struggle to learn to read, but may excel at math, Is this person's worth less than a person who excels at math?
A person may have poor motor skills, but may be a gifted, diligent, and hard working astrophysicist. Is this person worth less than a gifted athlete who struggles to read?

I could go on. Each of us has a different profile of strengths and weaknesses. My professional work is with people with communication disorders. If I didn't want to work with that population, I could develop a practice working on accent modification with nonnative speakers or with actors, or I could do something else, but I like my clients and my job.

Do I gripe about my clients? Well--sometimes, but the kid clients usually just make me laugh, so I share those stories. Parents? Sure, they're gripe worthy, but in a forum like this I will maintain their confidentiality as is required by law. Fortunately for you lot, there is no federal statute regarding right to privacy for piano students and their families!

p.s. If your child is gifted or talented at piano or any other skill, that's grand, but it is still important to strive to ensure that said child develops into a decent human being.


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Re: If piano teaching were compared to flight instruction
Candywoman #3029672 09/27/20 05:04 PM
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I think the problem is that one poster tries to connect complainers to their lack of teaching ability.

I'm trying to separate the two issues. The two might not even be remotely correlated. You can be the best teacher in the world, and complain about bad students every single day. Alternatively, you can say nothing (because you think it's bad to complain, whatever), and at the same time you are an ineffective teacher. And there are obviously overlaps in both areas.

Some people believe that a good teacher can reach any student, and that the reason a student fails is the teacher can't teach. I've seen this with my own eyes in my days working in public schools. Teachers are the scapegoats for bad students, horrible parents, and lazy/lame administrators. It's easy to blame the teachers. There are even scientific studies that "prove" that the teacher is the biggest indicator of a child's success in learning. I'm not even sure how the researchers of that study quantified each indicator.


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Re: If piano teaching were compared to flight instruction
Candywoman #3029680 09/27/20 05:16 PM
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Originally Posted by malkin
A person may struggle to learn to read, but may excel at math, Is this person's worth less than a person who excels at math?

Someone who sucks at math is most definitely worth less as a mathematician or engineer. Doesn't mean they can't pursue it, but the real world isn't going to be nice about it just because they are trying hard. I've worked with many people who are not suited for their profession of choice, and as a result are indeed treated as lower value employees.

But that's not really the topic here.

While some might see Candywoman's original post as venting and griping, I see it more as someone who cares enough to ask for help. That's fairly commendable, even if I might believe it to be a relatively futile effort.

Re: If piano teaching were compared to flight instruction
rkzhao #3029718 09/27/20 07:44 PM
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Originally Posted by rkzhao
Originally Posted by malkin
A person may struggle to learn to read, but may excel at math, Is this person's worth less than a person who excels at math?

Someone who sucks at math is most definitely worth less as a mathematician or engineer. Doesn't mean they can't pursue it, but the real world isn't going to be nice about it just because they are trying hard. I've worked with many people who are not suited for their profession of choice, and as a result are indeed treated as lower value employees.

But that's not really the topic here.

While some might see Candywoman's original post as venting and griping, I see it more as someone who cares enough to ask for help. That's fairly commendable, even if I might believe it to be a relatively futile effort.


Clearly, a person who struggles at math is not likely to be a brilliant mathematician, but might turn out to be a fabulous pianist. Is that his only possible redemption? What about being a great philosopher? Or a novelist? Or actor? Or athlete?

Or what if a brilliant mathematician wanted to play piano for fun and an intellectual challenge? Should that person just run over his head with a car if he has little natural aptitude for piano? Or could he not just find a teacher who is game to engage with him in that journey? Obviously not every teacher wants this kind of student, in the same way that every athletic coach does not want to coach special Olympics, but there are coaches for every level, from pee wee, through school age, to high level competition, as well as those who provide skills development to people who just want to improve their performance.

Most of us live in the grey area between black and white.


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Re: If piano teaching were compared to flight instruction
malkin #3029721 09/27/20 08:06 PM
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Originally Posted by malkin
Clearly, a person who struggles at math is not likely to be a brilliant mathematician, but might turn out to be a fabulous pianist.

You seem to be misunderstanding. The OP isn't talking about Piano students that suck at math. She's talking about piano students that struggle with learning piano....

Re: If piano teaching were compared to flight instruction
Candywoman #3029738 09/27/20 09:33 PM
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Someone who struggles with math may still benefit from learning some math even if they never will be a mathematician. Likewise, someone does not need to have virtuoso potential to benefit from music instruction.

I think poor rapport between student and teacher can be an impediment. If a student is not making progress, this should be identified. A teacher with 20 students they think are doorknobs is probably not helping the students regardless of the reason for the breakdown.

I don't think pigeon-holing the student is helpful though. There may be some who can flourish with a different teacher. That may not be the teacher's fault, but those students still deserve a chance to be something more than a doorknob.


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Re: If piano teaching were compared to flight instruction
rkzhao #3029766 09/28/20 01:18 AM
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Originally Posted by rkzhao
Originally Posted by malkin
A person may struggle to learn to read, but may excel at math, Is this person's worth less than a person who excels at math?

Someone who sucks at math is most definitely worth less as a mathematician or engineer. Doesn't mean they can't pursue it, but the real world isn't going to be nice about it just because they are trying hard. I've worked with many people who are not suited for their profession of choice, and as a result are indeed treated as lower value employees.

But that's not really the topic here.

While some might see Candywoman's original post as venting and griping, I see it more as someone who cares enough to ask for help. That's fairly commendable, even if I might believe it to be a relatively futile effort.

But most kids taking math have no intention of being a mathematician or engineer. They're taking math because a) it is a requirement and b) it is a useful life skill. Likewise, most kids taking piano have no intention of being a musician. They're taking it because a) their parents see it as a requirement and b) it is a useful life skill. The teacher's job is to impart as much math or music as they can given the child's natural abilities and limitations. The kid will eventually have to figure out on their own what career to pursue, and certainly, the real world will have a say in that. That's not a teacher's problem, especially with a young child whose potential may not yet be known.

Re: If piano teaching were compared to flight instruction
malkin #3029767 09/28/20 01:23 AM
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Originally Posted by malkin
Originally Posted by rkzhao
Originally Posted by malkin
A person may struggle to learn to read, but may excel at math, Is this person's worth less than a person who excels at math?

Someone who sucks at math is most definitely worth less as a mathematician or engineer. Doesn't mean they can't pursue it, but the real world isn't going to be nice about it just because they are trying hard. I've worked with many people who are not suited for their profession of choice, and as a result are indeed treated as lower value employees.

But that's not really the topic here.

While some might see Candywoman's original post as venting and griping, I see it more as someone who cares enough to ask for help. That's fairly commendable, even if I might believe it to be a relatively futile effort.


Clearly, a person who struggles at math is not likely to be a brilliant mathematician, but might turn out to be a fabulous pianist. Is that his only possible redemption? What about being a great philosopher? Or a novelist? Or actor? Or athlete?

Or what if a brilliant mathematician wanted to play piano for fun and an intellectual challenge? Should that person just run over his head with a car if he has little natural aptitude for piano? Or could he not just find a teacher who is game to engage with him in that journey? Obviously not every teacher wants this kind of student, in the same way that every athletic coach does not want to coach special Olympics, but there are coaches for every level, from pee wee, through school age, to high level competition, as well as those who provide skills development to people who just want to improve their performance.

Most of us live in the grey area between black and white.

Most people are not "great" or "brilliant" at anything - if you are, that is a gift. It certainly shouldn't be expected. Most people live relatively simple lives with pretty mundane jobs, interests and experiences, and that isn't a bad thing. The extra-curriculars they did as kids may end up being the highlights of their lives. Successful mathematicians, pianists, philosophers, novelists, actors or athletes who are making a decent living and getting recognition doing those things are the exception. Most people will be lucky to be a bookkeeper, music teacher, copy editor, personal trainer etc using their interest in math, music, writing etc in a way that can keep a roof over their head.

I think it's very damaging when parents expect a kid to be "brilliant" at something - maybe their kid just isn't. Having an interest or even a talent is not the same as being "brilliant." But those interests and talents certainly should be encouraged.

Re: If piano teaching were compared to flight instruction
Candywoman #3030427 09/29/20 10:18 PM
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The fundamental problem is the students do not practice either enough or effectively. Many of them are actually talented if not brilliant but they never get anywhere because they don't work at it.

The parents are very encouraging at the lesson but they don't have the kind of relationship with their child that leads to practice at home.

Last edited by Candywoman; 09/29/20 10:18 PM.
Re: If piano teaching were compared to flight instruction
Candywoman #3030499 09/30/20 08:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Candywoman
The parents are very encouraging at the lesson but they don't have the kind of relationship with their child that leads to practice at home.

I would think it would be helpful if the parents themselves practiced something on a disciplined basis - if not music, then golf, foreign language, anything. Otherwise it's "do as I say, not as I do."

Kids with musical parents surely are affected by seeing them practice.

(Of course I wonder if my kids are affected negatively - Daddy gets up at 0530 to practice, every single day? No way I'm working that hard.)


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Re: If piano teaching were compared to flight instruction
rkzhao #3030725 09/30/20 07:59 PM
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Originally Posted by rkzhao
Originally Posted by malkin
Clearly, a person who struggles at math is not likely to be a brilliant mathematician, but might turn out to be a fabulous pianist.

You seem to be misunderstanding. The OP isn't talking about Piano students that suck at math. She's talking about piano students that struggle with learning piano....

My understanding is that we are talking about human beings who are only marginally successful or less with learning piano. Perhaps these people excel in another area. Or perhaps not. Are we to discount them based on their lack of achievement in piano only? Perhaps they would be Nobel laureates who just can't work out how to please their piano teacher.


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