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I started to use a metronome with a slow tick on every 1/16 and I wont lie when there's a tie or eight it feels like forever but it's helping me get it down.

Thanks for letting me know it's not just a 10 minute job. I always seem think "I should be able to do this in a day" The rhythms are repetitive and there's a lot where the RH and LH are land on same beat so I need to stay motivated and know there will hard parts that may takes days to get down then there will be easier parts too and the best treat for me, some repeats.


I was often learning notes before rhythm and then find I need to relearn it again. I plan to try playing rhythm with dummy notes. Such as only using index finger of each LH and RH and only one note for LH and RH.




What are your thoughts on using the actual lyrics? Or do Kodaly Rhythm syllables offer somehting easier to say with keeping time, etc.?

Thanks!

This is what Valery Brainin writes in his article "Through the magic crystal - about the development of anticipatory perception of musical rhythm in children" :

"...The very fact of using one or another form of speech activity in mastering a musical rhythm is due not only to the fact that motor skills are a perceiving mechanism of rhythm that transmits information to the brain, but that such a mechanism (according to modern ideas about brain asymmetry) is precisely speech motor skills. Brain asymmetry researchers write: “Functional brain asymmetry seems to play an important role in music as well. It seems that harmony, timbre, and pitch ratios are primarily in the right hemisphere, while rhythm (and also poetry meter) is linked by the left hemisphere, which controls speech. "
Here is what VB writes about the "One-and-two-and-three-and-four-and" counting: "This approach helps to make out the written musical text", but not understand the music heard [ from my point of view, - groove].

In the same time, summarizing the criticism of the main systems of rhythm verbalization, VB writes: "... no system sets the task of phrasing, which leads to the absence of the idea of ​​creating a bar."
This is the approach of an academic musician who has never considered African and African American music; and the concept of riff is foreign to him.

Kodaly, or another syllabic rhythm system, is consistent and can be used with any piece of music. The syllables are chosen to be easy to say and reflect note duration.


Great to sing the lyrics, or in general to be able to sing any thing you play with an instrument. Don’t think, though, that it’s a substitute in the early stages of solidly learning the rhythm.

I delayed being precise with rhythm for a long time....wish I hadn’t, because with any skill it takes some time to become fluent. Now I have the enthusiasm of the “converted.”

It’s worthwhile to invest the practice, I think, with both the number system and a syllabic system.


Well stated.

Thanks! I plan to try the Kodaly system. I never knew about it until discussing here. Looking back I really don't think I ever have done any rhythm specific work other than playing some pieces. Do you also work on rhythm specific exercises outside of pieces?

For this purpose, I use the following books:

https://www.amazon.com/Odd-Time-Rea...0769233724&pd876-4rd_r&pd867rd_r & d7-dac-d8-75-e7-d7-69-67rd_r fu0Bh & pd_rd_wg = 4Vj2z & pf_rd_p = 7b36d496-f366-4631-94d3-61b87b52511b & pf_rd_r = 3J6G0HB2SPNC4TDV8W28 & psc = 1 & refWID = 3JNC284HB2SP


https://www.amazon.com/Melodic-Rhyt...mp;qid=1600883643&s=books&sr=1-5

https://southernpercussion.com/holan-rony/822-rhythm-for-all-volume-1.html

I also have

https://www.amazon.com/Progressive-Sight-Singing-Carol-Krueger/dp/0199395160 ,

but I don't use it .

I’ve used Sight Reading Factory for sight reading and rhythm exercises, plus lots of other miscellaneous sheet music that I use for sight reading.

Also:

https://www.amazon.com/Rhythm-Bible...1600965591&s=digital-text&sr=1-1


I’m a big fan of “Musical U” for all their rhythm, ear training, sight singing exercises. It may be more than you’re looking for, but there’s lots of useful info on their site about musical literacy in general and how to practice. They have special sales on courses, yearly, and lifetime memberships which are great deals if you can catch them.





Thank you, Nahum, for the recommendations. You know, your posts over the years encouraged me to do more with rhythm. Thanks!

Forgot to mention the “Rhythm Bible” above uses the Gordon system or a modified version of Gordon.

In this book, there is no pronunciation pauses. IMO, Gordon's system is related to the English language, so it sounds well suited to jazz and pop. For classical music, it will sound too punchy in many cases; which contradicts the concept of vocalized sound production.

I have no idea how to apply this Kodaly system. Say I have a dotted 1/16 how does that go? What do I do when I have LH and RH at same time such as, whole note in LH and a dotted 1/8 in RH.

You're right - there is very little material on the internet.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vc2RlRvYCcY


https://www.musical-u.com/learn/talking-rhythm-the-kodaly-method/#:~:text=The%20Kod%C3%A1ly%20Method%20is%20both,syllables%20to%20represent%20key%20rhythms.

There is no pronunciation of notes sustain and rests .

BTW, I got an idea how to pronounce longer notes:
Ta, tau, taua, tauau ; etc .

Hi Sebs

A lot of great information here, from which I'm sure you'll be able to find a method that works for you.

However for me, as a good reader of the notes themselves, but not a good reader of rhythms, my method is mainly to listen to recordings and translate that back into the sheet music. Virtually everything I want to play on the Piano has been recorded. So if I can't understand the written rhythm I'll go back to the source.

Based on your other posts I'm guessing that the section you've posted is from a pop song arrangement of some sort. In that case, if I was struggling with reading that rhythm, I'd go back to the original song and listen to it a few times, to get a feel for the rhythm.

Somebody else mentioned Richard Tee. I have a transcription of one of his solos which I spent quite a long time trying to play. The difficulty was the rhythm and independence between the two hands. The only way I eventually got it right (well some of it!) was listening the original recording.

On occasions I have used the vertical lines method other people mentioned, but that's really only at the desperation stage.

Cheers

No despair, Simon, no despair! Everything is within the framework of a completely normal preparation of the musical text, both for the students and for myself. Keep using this if it shortens the time.
This I gave the example of Richard Tee, and the way how to read it from sheet music, rewriting again with a sheet music editor , because the publishers of sheet music do not take into account that these sheet music primarily wants to see those that are not exactly good sight readers.

http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/3027352/re-counting-1234.html#Post3027352

If verbal explanations do not help (in this case), then here is the exact method of how to learn , in what order and in what portions.

https://yadi.sk/i/izRvySbHxtZKbQ

https://yadi.sk/d/5OewH_uZ3C33Iw



Follow exactly as indicated - and you will be on top! From here you take the principle and move on.

I use Kodaly syllables to get the rhythms right on separate hands. Clap and/or say them for one voice of your piece. Combine hands slowly. Then you can play both hands but pick one line or voice to say the Kodaly syllables. Otherwise count out 1ee+a2ee, etc.

The goal is to understand rhythms at a micro level, to be accurate, but gradually count larger and larger units, until you only need to feel the pulse. As you learn a piece you will get to a stage where you count and feel only one beat to a measure.

Dotted 16ths! No, I don’t say those. I’d look for how the two hands line up, if that dot affects where a note lands on the beat.

I’d say pick simpler rhythms to learn about “rhythm”...and be progressive, not dotted before undotted.

Good advice above if you just want to learn a particular piece that’s tricky: find a video, or enter the notes into software. After you gotten it into your fingers somewhat, record yourself and listen whether or not you have a steady rhythm and it’s musical.

Thanks Nahum

Despair is probably overstating it!

Here is the Richard Tee solo (different to your one) I was referring to:

[video:yahoo]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7V-DguG1RiI[/video]

The Piano solo, which isn't really a solo in the Jazz sense, starts at around 6:10.

There is a complete transcription of that Piano part available, which I printed off and started learning.

It's all about the rhythm! In fact that band (Stuff) was all about groove.
Sadly with exception of Steve Gadd, I think they are all dead now.

Cheers

Simon

Correct, it's an arrangements from Musicnotes that I purchased many moons ago. I've listened to the original a ton. I struggle with having two separate rhythms and for some reason I think the piece should be easy. I think I underestimate it...

The same principle. When you will understand it, it will be easier for you to read sheet music. But of course. it's easier to start with recording by putting each rhythm pattern in loop mode.