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Yamaha P45 velocity issues
#3028056 09/22/20 10:50 PM
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Hello everyone, I am new here . I have been following alot of advices from this site, so I finally decided to join and become a member of this huge piano community. Thing is I have been dealing with a technical issue regarding the Yamaha P45 . And I am strongly hoping that this is the place where I can actually get some solutions towards it.
I use the "garritan cfx" as my piano vst, and when using the Yamaha P45 as the midi controller , the overall velocity is too low, I tried multiple ways to fix it . Firstly I tried to tweak the velocity curve inside of the plugin itself, I tried using other velocity scaling softwares such as VELOSCALER . But scaling or tweaking velocity curve to get a reasonable volume cuts away all the soft dynamics , this makes the overall playing very unrealistic. I also tried "Data Mapping" using midiox to manipulate the velocity, but that also did not provide any satisfactory results. I followed upon some threads where others have stated similar issues with the P45 but those threads were pretty much a dead end aswell . If anyone can advice me on what else can I do to get a solution towards this, it would be very helpful for me . Looking forward for your advice ๐Ÿ™‚

Re: Yamaha P45 velocity issues
Sakef Chowdhury #3028082 09/23/20 02:57 AM
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Combining a bottom of the barrel digital piano not intended to be used as a MIDI controller with a high end VST instrument is going to expose your controller's insuffizientes without mercy.

What did you expect? A proper piano MIDI controller is at least 1,500 bucks.


Richwood RD-17C-CE | LaMancha Rubi CM-N | Yamaha P-515
Re: Yamaha P45 velocity issues
Sakef Chowdhury #3028085 09/23/20 03:24 AM
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I bought a $49 midi controller from Aldi (Masterkey 49) as a spare keyboard and while it doesn't have graded/weighted keys it does play well over the entire velocity range and gives my fingers a rest from my more expensive and a little clunky Korg. I guess the Yamaha P45 is designed to work well only with the internal sounds.

Re: Yamaha P45 velocity issues
JoeT #3028106 09/23/20 06:00 AM
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I get what you are saying , low end digital pianos are certainly not the best option but thing is I don't need perfection where I can play the whole 0-127(midi dynamics ) smoothly but maybe somewhere in between where the P45 would atleast be playable with the garritan cfx . But if that's not possible at all with the P45 ,Can you atleast advice me a hammer action DP /midi controller around 400/450$? I must mention that I am not looking for a VPC1 perfection but something with which I won't face this particular velocity issue like the P45.

Re: Yamaha P45 velocity issues
Sakef Chowdhury #3028122 09/23/20 07:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Sakef Chowdhury
Can you atleast advice me a hammer action DP /midi controller around 400/450$?

Sorry, there are no usable hammer action MIDI controllers around that price point. Professional Virtual Studio Technology users are expected to pay professional prices. Instead of spending your budget on Garritan CFX and a useless P-45, you could gotten yourself a decent digital piano instead.

Quote
I must mention that I am not looking for a VPC1 perfection

So what are you doing with Garritan CFX then? Just play the P-45.

Quote
but something with which I won't face this particular velocity issue like the P45.

The most basic suitable hammer action MIDI controller is the Roland A88 Mk2 at $999, the Studiologic SL88 Grand goes for slightly less.


Richwood RD-17C-CE | LaMancha Rubi CM-N | Yamaha P-515
Re: Yamaha P45 velocity issues
JoeT #3028129 09/23/20 07:44 AM
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Originally Posted by JoeT
Originally Posted by Sakef Chowdhury
Can you atleast advice me a hammer action DP /midi controller around 400/450$?

Sorry, there are no usable hammer action MIDI controllers around that price point. Professional Virtual Studio Technology users are expected to pay professional prices. Instead of spending your budget on Garritan CFX and a useless P-45, you could gotten yourself a decent digital piano instead.

Quote
I must mention that I am not looking for a VPC1 perfection

So what are you doing with Garritan CFX then? Just play the P-45.

Quote
but something with which I won't face this particular velocity issue like the P45.

The most basic suitable hammer action MIDI controller is the Roland A88 Mk2 at $999, the Studiologic SL88 Grand goes for slightly less.

Re: Yamaha P45 velocity issues
Jonky Ponky #3028130 09/23/20 07:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Jonky Ponky
I bought a $49 midi controller from Aldi (Masterkey 49) as a spare keyboard and while it doesn't have graded/weighted keys it does play well over the entire velocity range and gives my fingers a rest from my more expensive and a little clunky Korg. I guess the Yamaha P45 is designed to work well only with the internal sounds.

Combine a low-budget action with a single layer piano voice and it works fine. You always hear the single layer anyways regardless of the actual recorded velocity. This is not by being "designed" that way, it just happens to be a good match on the cheap end of things.

But there is also a general misconception about how pianos and to some extent hammer action controllers work: Both "the overall velocity is too low" and "cuts away all the soft dynamics" is simply a result of someone being a beginner.

"This makes the overall playing very unrealistic" is just was happens on a concert grand as well: The beginner hits some notes, some come out quieter, some louder - mostly erratically - while they are completely unable to play neither proper forte nor proper piano, which requires years of training under supervision of a teacher (so you don't injure yourself especially on the forte end).

An insufficient digital instrument might actually give the wrong impression that you're able to play the piano, while you're really not.


Richwood RD-17C-CE | LaMancha Rubi CM-N | Yamaha P-515
Re: Yamaha P45 velocity issues
JoeT #3028131 09/23/20 07:51 AM
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My plan is to record some of my piano arrangements on my DAW using the CFX . That was actually the main reason why I bought the cfx at the first place . About the P45 , truth be told I thought hammer action would suffice enough for a piano vst . But the P45 playability is so crap with the cfx , there's just no way I am bring able to get a decent sound with it from the CFX.

Re: Yamaha P45 velocity issues
Sakef Chowdhury #3028132 09/23/20 08:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Sakef Chowdhury
My plan is to record some of my piano arrangements on my DAW using the CFX . That was actually the main reason why I bought the cfx at the first place . About the P45 , truth be told I thought hammer action would suffice enough for a piano vst . But the P45 playability is so crap with the cfx , there's just no way I am bring able to get a decent sound with it from the CFX.

So you wanted to do something professional on a shoestring budget and you got what you paid for?

The best way to record a piano arrangement into a DAW is to get a good digital piano with a built-in USB audio interface, plug it into your DAW and just record the digital audio from it. Done. No need to fiddle with expensive plugins. In the DAW world MIDI is thing of the past anyway.

Yamaha has that stuff ready to go, just not a the P-45 price point.


Richwood RD-17C-CE | LaMancha Rubi CM-N | Yamaha P-515
Re: Yamaha P45 velocity issues
JoeT #3028135 09/23/20 08:14 AM
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I guess, anyways enough trying to find a solution with this shitty controller.I looked up on a few midi controllers around my budget . I bumped into the maudio hammer 88 , would that be a good substitute for the P45 ?

Last edited by Sakef Chowdhury; 09/23/20 08:15 AM.
Re: Yamaha P45 velocity issues
Sakef Chowdhury #3028142 09/23/20 09:00 AM
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I had a similar problem when I first started using Band in a Box about 7 years ago, I was unable to get the volume from my P90 on a comparable level with the volume from the backingtracks in Band in a Box. I discovered on that forum that it's a known issue that Yamaha P series don't use the entire velocity range and was told the same thing you've heard, if I wanted that kind of control over the velocity I should buy a good synth like an S90. I found my old post on a different forum that has the response from their technical support line:

"Talked to PG tech support. The solution is to increase the velocity of the MIDI value being input to BIAB. There's two ways to do it, one is in BIAB:
Options->Preferences->MIDI Options->, and in the section labeled โ€œMIDI thruโ€ change the value labeled โ€œBoost THRU velocity byโ€ to 127

That comes close to resolving my problem: my keyboard now is on volume level ~60 while the backing instruments are set to ~45.

The other way to address the problem is to increase the velocity of the MIDI value being sent by the keyboard. I see no way to do that on my keyboard, and in fact there are many posts on the forums that say the Yamana P family of pianos don't output the full 127 value for MIDI velocity, which is consistent with what I see. The argument they make is to buy a real synth, like the Yamaha S90, if you want that kind of control over the MIDI values, or buy a little box called a MIDI velocity converter and hang that on the output of the keyboard."


Yamaha P90, Kawai GL-10
Re: Yamaha P45 velocity issues
Sakef Chowdhury #3028144 09/23/20 09:04 AM
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Can't you find a used controller on ebay for example for that price?

Re: Yamaha P45 velocity issues
Sakef Chowdhury #3028147 09/23/20 09:21 AM
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Are you able to control the dynamics when playing the P45 with its internal piano sound?

If yes, then neither you nor the P45 are completely hopeless and it's just a matter of configuring the virtual piano's velocity response curve so that it matches the internal piano sound.

If no, then there's a problem with either the P45 or you and either one needs to be upgraded. With money or with hard practise. ๐Ÿ˜‰

Re: Yamaha P45 velocity issues
Sakef Chowdhury #3028150 09/23/20 09:31 AM
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Try this curve as a starting point, I'm using this on my P-125 (has same action as the P-45):

[Linked Image]

These are the value pairs:
0:0
12:5
24:15
39:30
57:54
77:86
100:127

For VIs from Native Instruments, I just use linear mapping:
0:0
100:127

The touch curve in the P-125 is set to "hard"...

Last edited by Georg Z.; 09/23/20 09:32 AM.

keep calm and play the piano :-)
Re: Yamaha P45 velocity issues
clothearednincompo #3028153 09/23/20 09:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Sakef Chowdhury
I guess, anyways enough trying to find a solution with this shitty controller.I looked up on a few midi controllers around my budget . I bumped into the maudio hammer 88 , would that be a good substitute for the P45 ?

No, it's worse. Again a good hammer action controller costs at least twice as much.

Originally Posted by clothearednincompo
Are you able to control the dynamics when playing the P45 with its internal piano sound?

If yes, then neither you nor the P45 are completely hopeless and it's just a matter of configuring the virtual piano's velocity response curve so that it matches the internal piano sound.

If no, then there's a problem with either the P45 or you and either one needs to be upgraded. With money or with hard practise. ๐Ÿ˜‰

My suggestion would be to resell the Garritan CFX and the P-45, get at least a Kawai ES110, wire the line out(s) to the DAW and just use that to record the piano arrangements. Kawai's 88key sampled EX is a good match for the decent built-in action and its single layer doesn't present too much of a challenge.


Richwood RD-17C-CE | LaMancha Rubi CM-N | Yamaha P-515
Re: Yamaha P45 velocity issues
JoeT #3028158 09/23/20 09:56 AM
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About garritan cfx , to be honest I worked my butt off to save up money for this piano vst . I built a certain emotion towards it, i think alot of you garritan cfx users would know what I am talking about ... So I can't sell it , it's my love ๐Ÿ˜›

Re: Yamaha P45 velocity issues
Sakef Chowdhury #3028162 09/23/20 10:02 AM
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Yes, when playing with the P45 itself , I am being able to control dynamics properly . But with the cfx , it's a whole different experience, it's just not sounding right . It is related with the velocity for sure , just not being able to resolve this, maybe it's not even possible

Re: Yamaha P45 velocity issues
Sakef Chowdhury #3028166 09/23/20 10:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Sakef Chowdhury
About garritan cfx , to be honest I worked my butt off to save up money for this piano vst .

And you could have gotten yourself a decent sounding digital piano instead with a proper action already built in.

Quote
I built a certain emotion towards it, i think alot of you garritan cfx users would know what I am talking about ... So I can't sell it , it's my love ๐Ÿ˜›

That's just called "sunken cost fallacy".

Buying a VST first without already having a suitable controller at hand sounds not like a smart purchase decision anyway.


Richwood RD-17C-CE | LaMancha Rubi CM-N | Yamaha P-515
Re: Yamaha P45 velocity issues
Georg Z. #3028170 09/23/20 10:09 AM
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Georg Z I am not being able to view the linked image , if its not a problem could you maybe send me the image again ? And if you dont mind could you tell me how to input these velocity values, I have a velocity curve plugin called pizmidicurve, and midi ox where I can use the data mapping function , is it possible to input these velocity values over there ? looking forward for your reply smile

Re: Yamaha P45 velocity issues
Sakef Chowdhury #3028184 09/23/20 10:58 AM
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another try for the image:
[Linked Image]


keep calm and play the piano :-)
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