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newbie help with the Kawai VPC1
#3027794 09/22/20 10:02 AM
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I'm less than a complete newbie here, hoping for some beginner help. I'm buying a "slab" for my teenage son and I've gotten interested in the research. He knows much more about the technology than I do, though I do know the audiophile world and its commitment to sound reproduction.

For context, we're consider the Roland FP-90 and maybe the RD2000; the Kawai ES920 (or ES8); and the VPC1. (He's auditioned the Rolands and is trying to set up a time to play the Kawais.)

I want to understand better how the VPC1 works. It feels like what audiophiles would call "separates"--instead of one integrated amp, for example, a two-channel system might have a separate amplifier, pre-amp, DAC, and phono stage. In this case, where the ES920 would have everything in one physical unit, the VPC1 set-up would amount to a keyboard/controller (VPC1) and a laptop/software and speakers. Does that sound about right? This would cost more, take up more space, and be much less portable--but if I'm understanding it correctly it would amount to the same concept of sound production as the ES920, just in separate parts.

Here are my incredibly ignorant questions. If I'm understanding it, the VPC1 would get connected to a laptop (MacBook Pro) that has the software downloaded; in turn, the laptop would connect to speakers (powered, or to an amplifier>speakers). Is that right? I'm pretty sure that, if we get really ambitious, it could first go through something like the Roland Integra-7 sound module then to the laptop, yes? (We wouldn't start with that set up; I'm just curious.) He has a Roland synth and that would presumably also connect to the laptop, right? The VPC1 wouldn't go "through" the synth to the laptop, would it?

I'm also curious about the speakers, presumably studio monitors. In the audiophile world there's intense concentration on the equipment but much less discussion of the original source or recording (other than the phrase "garbage in, garbage out"). In most BBQ forums there's fanatical attention to cooking methods but very little to sourcing high quality meat. Similarly, out here and in other digital piano forums and blogs, I'm finding a lot of attention to the "sound" of the various digital keyboards/pianos but not nearly as much attention to the speakers in those pianos. I don't entirely understand this. The sound that the ES8/ES920 makes is not only the result of the onboard piano technology (the signal-sending controller part of the thing) but also the amplifier and speakers in those units, which are necessarily compromised by space. It would seem to me, then, that a controller like the VPC1 would offer potential for much better sound if one commits to high quality amplification and speakers. Is this self-evidently true or am I missing something?

I do apologize for being a clueless geezer out here. I appreciate any responses!

Re: newbie help with the Kawai VPC1
NorthernLights #3027801 09/22/20 10:26 AM
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Hi Northern Lights,

Welcome to the forum. Yes, what you write is basically right.

However, there are a few things to consider (I'm a VPC1 owner myself and love it, and also own an acoustic piano):

First, the "hassle factor". A musical instrument wants to get played, and your son or whoever else wants to play it without thinking too much about technical issues. With a multi-component setup, you need to get things right before you can lay into the keys - this is not everyone's call. With an instrument such as the others you mentioned, you switch them on and off you go, into practicing, playing, whatever.

Second, about the reproduction of sound (and the playing experience). Unlike with audio systems the goal is usually set: Reproduce the sound and playing experience of an acoustic piano as nearly as possible. The VPC1 gets a few things right, in particular, the key action (which is literally key to the playing experience, haha). HOWEVER, and here is the tricky part: Sound generation (in a laptop) and sound reproduction (in external, usually powered speakers) need to be tinkered with so they work accurately. This includes (a) avoiding any latency between triggering a key and the onset of the note in software, and the blowing out of the note in a speaker. Many users experience quite a nightmare before this is set up correctly. (b) Getting the speakers sound "natural", i.e., like a piano. What you want here are "linear" speakers with a flat frequency response from fairly low bass to high treble. That is NOT what most audio speakers will give you (even high end ones). Moreover, such a response is usually obtained only in very small spots (for studio monitors), so it is a very different matter to create good sound in the player's position (here a pair of decent studio monitors will do), or in the room - this, usually, is very hard to impossible to achieve.

It definitely can be done. But it will take a while (and a fair amount of cash) to figure this out correctly.

An all-in-one slab of decent quality makes things much easier, gives you a portable setup as well, and may thus be preferable in many situations.

For myself, I use and enjoy the VPC1 without speakers, but with good headphones, for night practice when I can't use my grand. That eliminates one problem (the speaker setup)....


Shigeru Kawai SK-2, etc.
Re: newbie help with the Kawai VPC1
NorthernLights #3027804 09/22/20 10:31 AM
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vpc1 is just a controller. that is the high quality piano-like keybed. It does not contain any piano sounds. therefore you will always need a tablet or computer and of course amplifier and speakers. In this case, it is up to you to improve the sound.

Re: newbie help with the Kawai VPC1
NorthernLights #3027815 09/22/20 11:02 AM
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Pressing on and playing reduces barriers to practice. So I would not recommend a vpc1 for a child or a teenager. Too many distractions from learning and playing music.

If he is interested in virtual instruments in the future, they can be added at a later point via MIDI.

Re: newbie help with the Kawai VPC1
NorthernLights #3027911 09/22/20 02:49 PM
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Thank you all for your responses, which are most helpful.

Maurus, you're speaking my language when you contrast the world of audio systems and the world of digital keyboards. Specifically, audiophiles argue endlessly about the "goal" of speakers and the reproduction of music, which leads to debates about transparency, neutrality, veiled/colored speakers, and so on. I hear you: the goal in this case is pretty direct: reproduce the sound of an acoustic piano. That feels like both an identifiable goal ... and perhaps an impossible one. It is one that I can understand, as is the nest of complexities trying to get there.

It's also interesting to me, tangentially, that some of these issues have emerged in two-channel systems with the introduction of digital sound. Obviously it's been around for quite a while, in the popular market at least as long as cds, but with streaming, high-end DACs, file storage, and so on, laptops and computers software are now central to many systems.

Thanks again, all. I've appreciated this forum very much over the last few months and I'll likely be out here with more questions!

Re: newbie help with the Kawai VPC1
NorthernLights #3027971 09/22/20 06:21 PM
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If you already have an Integra-7 and a Roland synth and are happy with the sounds you could control those sounds with the VPC1 and output from those devices to speakers. No need to use a computer, unless you want to add new sounds or record, mix, produce etc.

Last edited by 88snowmonkeys; 09/22/20 06:28 PM.
Re: newbie help with the Kawai VPC1
NorthernLights #3028041 09/22/20 09:40 PM
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The VPC1 is really for people who already have some form of Synth setup and just want a nice grand-piano like keybed for cheap. For example: If you already own a Nord Piano 4 keyboard and love the sounds, but would like a Grand Piano key action, what you'd do is hook the VPC1 up to the Nord and just it as a replacement keybed. Or, if you have a Integra 7 you can hook it up to that. Or if you use VST's on your computer, you hook the VPC1 up to your computer.

The audio hookups are done through MIDI, though the VPC1 support MIDI over USB as well as traditional 5-DIN MIDI cables meaning that it's basically a USB device unless you're hooking up older devices, or going for a technical setup.


Honestly, the VPC1 usually isn't the best option if you're starting from scratch; it's price inefficient and inconvenient. As said: It's more for upgrading pre-existing setups. It can be pretty cost inefficient for creating a good setup from scratch, unless what you want actually is a PC-based VST setup. If you want the VPC1 as a VST controller, then it's a good choice. Otherwise, you'll want to look at different options.

For example, the MP11SE is about $800-$1000 extra compared to the VPC1. But: A good piano VST will set you back at least $150, and give you far fewer sounds. You then need a good sound-card and DAC, at the least. $200? Maybe some PC upgrades as well. Or even a new PC depending on how old your PC is. And then maybe a good MIDI controller (another $100) unless your PC is RIGHT NEXT TO the VPC1, unless you want to constantly have to get up to change piano settings -- the VPC1 literally only has a power button and piano keys on it. And so on. So unless your setting up a professional DAW workstation, fancy stands included, making your VPC1 setup can get pricey quickly, while being far more inconvenient, with far more maintenance, head-aches, and things that can go wrong. Or you could spend a few extra hundred dollars ($500?) and get the MP11SE instead. All you need for that is a good set of headphones or speakers and you're set! The sounds on the MP11SE are all reasonably good, there's a lot more of them, and the piano is easily controlled. Your life is now much easier.

Re: newbie help with the Kawai VPC1
NorthernLights #3028107 09/23/20 06:00 AM
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I am a fan of the VPC1 BUT:
if I would buy a slab for my son I would choose a DP with integrated loudspeakers. Turning on computer, audio interface and 2 loudspeakers (individually) prevents most teenagers from practicing. I know that for sure cause I´m a music teacher. It seems that you want to buy the VPC for yourself? wink

Last edited by aphexdisklavier; 09/23/20 06:01 AM.
Re: newbie help with the Kawai VPC1
NorthernLights #3028143 09/23/20 09:03 AM
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I own a vpc-1 and really love it, but I would agree, if you have the money a mp11se would be great to start with if you are a complete "newbie"

The thing is, with the mp11se you could always expand later, and use the mp11se as a controller for your vst's the same way you would use a vpc-1. But, you could never do that the other way around. You can't use the vpc-1 as a mp11se, as an all in one, switch it on and play package.

Also, the mp11se keys are a tad lighter than the vpc-1's, which I'd think could also be beneficial for a beginner.

Re: newbie help with the Kawai VPC1
NorthernLights #3028286 09/23/20 03:52 PM
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Thank you all. I'm listening. I should probably clarify that *I* am the newbie, trying to understand. My son is turning 18, has been playing for years, has taken two music theory classes with two more this semester (mostly college level), and likes to get creative with sounds (what I would call buttons and knobs). So getting him to practice is not something I have to deal with, thank goodness.

He and I are both drawn to the VPC1 for a variety of reasons, largely having to do with what we've read about the feel and playing experience. Like many, he doesn't like the artificial feeling of many keyboards. (I'm drawn to the aesthetics of the thing itself.) It also seems that, in the long run, it's adaptable: he can work around it, as it were, with software, speakers, synths, and so on. Also, it seems like a fun project. (As mentioned, I'm thick in the audiophile "hobby" in which there's pleasure in addressing all the various parts: cables, crossovers, etc.)

That said, he'll be moving up from an old, outdated Yamaha and it'll be a leap. I am listening carefully when many of you recommend a DP. I didn't know that it would be a challenge to get the VPC1 sounding top-notch (latency, software, etc). I'm especially intrigued by the MP11SE; I hadn't looked at it and it does indeed check most of the boxes. The cost does make me hesitate, but that's something I have to decide, being the dad and all.

Unfortunately, it's out of stock everywhere online. It's so out of stock that I wonder if they're coming out with a different model. I've written to Kawai; we'll see if they respond.

Re: newbie help with the Kawai VPC1
NorthernLights #3028297 09/23/20 04:19 PM
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Well, to be fair.. it isn't THAT much of a challenge to make a vpc-1 sound top notch.

You need:

- Vpc-1
- Pc
- Audio interface
- speakers and/or headphones
- Vsl synchron piano('s) (skip everything else IMO)
- some time to install everything and find good settings, vst setup, velocity curve etc.


I have my pc set up so that it loads up my favorite piano vst automatically on startup, so if I want to play (using headphones) litteraly all I have to do is switch on the pc and the vpc1, that's one more button to press compared to a mp11se, I don't even have to turn on the monitor.

Re: newbie help with the Kawai VPC1
NorthernLights #3028311 09/23/20 05:12 PM
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Originally Posted by NorthernLights
I want to understand better how the VPC1 works. It feels like what audiophiles would call "separates"--instead of one integrated amp, for example, a two-channel system might have a separate amplifier, pre-amp, DAC, and phono stage. In this case, where the ES920 would have everything in one physical unit, the VPC1 set-up would amount to a keyboard/controller (VPC1) and a laptop/software and speakers. Does that sound about right? This would cost more, take up more space, and be much less portable--but if I'm understanding it correctly it would amount to the same concept of sound production as the ES920, just in separate parts.

That's not quite right. What audiophiles do is equivalent to building your own pedal board with carefully selected separate pieces of equipment instead of routing your audio through a PC and use a bunch of plugins. However pedals are most predominant in playing electric guitars, you rarely see them connected to a digital piano.

Generally what is available inside high-end equipment is not available as PC software, as the latter can be easily reverse-engineered (and pirated as well). Now high end digital piano equipment usually doesn't come as a pedal, but with a keyboard action built-in fitting its tone generator perfectly. The latter is the reason why MIDI fell out of use now, except for controlling lights (on stage).

tl;dr: You won't find anything on par with a Yamaha NU1X as "separates" and you won't find such a well rounded (action, sound, amplification) slab solution as a Yamaha P-515, especially not at that price point on par with the VPC1 controller (which is a stripped down Kawai MP10).

Quote
I do apologize for being a clueless geezer out here.

If this self-assessment is true, then you should stay away from tinkering and fiddling. You will never get satisfying results. I strongly advise against going that route.


Richwood RD-17C-CE | LaMancha Rubi CM-N | Yamaha P-515
Re: newbie help with the Kawai VPC1
NorthernLights #3028312 09/23/20 05:16 PM
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I personally also use a midi controller with piano VST's, and I'm hoping to move up to the VPC1 eventually! It's a great controller, and paired up with some nice piano software, you're rocking big time!!!
With the ones I'm using -- the VSL Steinway and the Ivory II American Concert D are just beautiful to play and sticks me to the bench. The Garritan CFX concert grand is another great instrument to recommend. The VI Labs' Modern U is quite realistic sounding as a great upright, and the Ravenscroft has great low notes performances. All 5 libraries I own and play all the time, and they have coloured my piano playing sessions. Now all I need is a better keybed, and the VPC1 should be good.
But speaking to your case. If your son is also interested in playing other instruments besides pianos, then he would need another little controller to connect to the VPC1 that has buttons, knobs and sliders. The VPC1 is just a piano controller and it only does one thing -- good piano keybed. That's also something I'm thinking about right now. Personally though, whether or not you just play the piano, I would recommend getting an extra controller with knobs and faders, so you can group midi controls to different faders. I can, for example, change the volume on the fly if needed.

Re: newbie help with the Kawai VPC1
NorthernLights #3028334 09/23/20 06:27 PM
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This is all fantastic and I'm truly grateful. Although it's for my son, I do find this kind of research highly pleasurable. Some of what you all are saying is daunting but also very exciting. David Lai, your enthusiasm is wonderful; the VSL Steinway sound remarkable. (I grew up with a 1911 Steinway grand in the house!)

JoeT, I don't plan on doing any fiddling or tinkering at all. That's all on my son. I'm simply trying to understand it all, in part so I can understand what he is up to. (He doesn't do internet forums, which is GOOD in general! But it does mean he doesn't have a good place to ask questions.) Also, we're starting with Roland and Kawai because there are dealers nearby. The closest Yamaha dealer is a hefty drive.

U3piano, thanks for the encouragement! Now, here's another newbie question: my understanding was that the VPC1 could connect directly to a laptop (via usb?), and I assumed that the laptop would then be connected to powered speakers. It sounds like you're suggesting an audio interface. Would an interface be necessary for just the VPC1? I'm guessing that it's necessary or preferred for multiple instruments/mics or multiple speakers and perhaps for recording. Maybe, though, it should be part of our VPC1 thinking. In that case, we would connect the VPC1 and laptop to the interface, which would then feed the signal/sound to the speakers?

Re: newbie help with the Kawai VPC1
NorthernLights #3028397 09/23/20 11:24 PM
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Originally Posted by NorthernLights
David Lai, your enthusiasm is wonderful; the VSL Steinway sound remarkable. (I grew up with a 1911 Steinway grand in the house!)
Wow, that's so good!!! The VSL Steinway is a Hamburg Steinway, so the sound is clear and bright. The Ivory II American Concert D, however, is a vintage Steinway in the 1950s and has a warmer more lyrical tone. I like them both. I've also played a Steinway made in the 1910s, 1913 to be exact, and it is so wonderful to listen to the piano!!! Are you a classical musician as well? Love these vintage instruments!!!
Originally Posted by NorthernLights
my understanding was that the VPC1 could connect directly to a laptop (via usb?), and I assumed that the laptop would then be connected to powered speakers. It sounds like you're suggesting an audio interface. Would an interface be necessary for just the VPC1? I'm guessing that it's necessary or preferred for multiple instruments/mics or multiple speakers and perhaps for recording. Maybe, though, it should be part of our VPC1 thinking. In that case, we would connect the VPC1 and laptop to the interface, which would then feed the signal/sound to the speakers?
I will share with you my setup. I use a laptop running Windows 10, a Dell laptop that by default has lots of latency. But I bought a FocusRite Scarlett 4I4 3rd gen, and it has loopback so I can take the audio to Zoom, Skype, the Camera app and stuff. Anyway, back to the setup. I plug my KRK Rokit5 G4 speakers (active speakers) into the monitor outputs at the back of the Focusrite audio interface, and that interface is connected to my laptop. My keyboard is also connected to my laptop, and that's how I play. The keyboard and audio interface all connected with my laptop, and the speakers connected with the audio interface. This interface should set you back at about $230 I believe.
Hope this helps! smile

Last edited by David Lai; 09/23/20 11:28 PM. Reason: typos
Re: newbie help with the Kawai VPC1
NorthernLights #3028422 09/24/20 03:04 AM
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Actually I'm not 100% sure you would need an audio interface.


But if you would need one, an audio interface doesn't cost that much. It's a long time ago, but I think getting an audio interface fixed my latency issues back in the day. And of course it's a convenient way to connect your speakers, headphones etc, and have physical volume controls for those.

Oh, and I forgot to mention the pc should have SSD disk space for the piano software, HDD is too slow, it might work, but will give annoying load times.

Re: newbie help with the Kawai VPC1
NorthernLights #3028425 09/24/20 03:26 AM
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Oh and yes, like David Lai said:

- You connect the vpc-1 with one simple usb cable to the pc/laptop.
- You connect the audio interface with a usb cable to the pc/laptop as well.
- Then, you connect powered speakers and/or headphones to the audio interface.

It's pretty simple actually. You could try it without an audio interface and connect powered speakers and/or headphones directly to the pc, but my advice would be to include an audio interface in the vpc-1 thinking for performance and convenience.

Re: newbie help with the Kawai VPC1
NorthernLights #3028499 09/24/20 09:01 AM
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You guys rock! The various Kawais are either out of stock (VPC1, MP11SE) or not yet arrived (ES920), so we have a bit of a wait. But that just gives me more time to research! My son ... is ready to start playing.

At the risk of overstaying my welcome here, I'm going to ask one more question. My son has a small synth, a Roland JD-Xi. I've never understood what it does but that's beside the point. Assuming he has an audio interface, where would the synth fit in the "stream" of devices? Would it also plug into the audio interface? Or directly into the laptop?

Last edited by NorthernLights; 09/24/20 09:08 AM.
Re: newbie help with the Kawai VPC1
NorthernLights #3028506 09/24/20 09:38 AM
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Originally Posted by NorthernLights
You guys rock! The various Kawais are either out of stock (VPC1, MP11SE) or not yet arrived (ES920), so we have a bit of a wait. But that just gives me more time to research! My son ... is ready to start playing.

At the risk of overstaying my welcome here, I'm going to ask one more question. My son has a small synth, a Roland JD-Xi. I've never understood what it does but that's beside the point. Assuming he has an audio interface, where would the synth fit in the "stream" of devices? Would it also plug into the audio interface? Or directly into the laptop?

I believe you can plug it into a line level input if using an interface, but I could be wrong as I've never used a synth before. u3piano, help me please!!! smile

Last edited by David Lai; 09/24/20 09:39 AM.
Re: newbie help with the Kawai VPC1
U3piano #3028507 09/24/20 09:39 AM
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Originally Posted by U3piano
Oh and yes, like David Lai said:

- You connect the vpc-1 with one simple usb cable to the pc/laptop.
- You connect the audio interface with a usb cable to the pc/laptop as well.
- Then, you connect powered speakers and/or headphones to the audio interface.

It's pretty simple actually. You could try it without an audio interface and connect powered speakers and/or headphones directly to the pc, but my advice would be to include an audio interface in the vpc-1 thinking for performance and convenience.

Good point! I had to learn it the hard way. smile

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