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Re: question on teachers
AZNpiano #3027627 09/21/20 07:47 PM
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Originally Posted by AZNpiano
Originally Posted by keystring
You first have to ASK what is meant by "start on different notes".

You answered the question yourself. There's no need to defend the indefensible.

I did not defend the act of not asking what was meant, nor criticize it. I realize that teachers will not take the same time and care when helping students on-line that they do with their own students. There is no reason why you or any of the teachers here should work for free. So I don't blame anyone for not asking questions that would clarify this.

Any good teacher will know that a student, especially one that was poorly taught in some way, will need to be guided, and will not be able to express themselves in standard ways - and yet that student may be totally on the right track.

There was a time when I was in that position. In fact, I was a "transfer wreck" as you so often inelegantly put it. Because I was not taught properly, I did not have the terminology. I actually sensed the right concepts and approaches instinctively but if I tried to ask about it, often it came out as gibberish. For practice approaches, there were none really. I "invented" chunking and layering, long before they were taught to me by an excellent teacher. And thought I was doing something really bad! I finally found teachers who could pull me past the hole I was in.

What you have to realize that those of us who are poorly taught may actually have the right idea, but we have no way of expressing it, because of the first poor teaching. Therefore a teacher SHOULD check what was really meant. But that's a paid job. You did suggest a change of teachers, in case this one is not doing the right job.

By the way I wrote a bit more than that one line.

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Re: question on teachers
keystring #3027636 09/21/20 08:15 PM
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Originally Posted by keystring
By the way I wrote a bit more than that one line.

I know that.

The OP is wrong. Period. He/she/it also comes with a severe case of know-it-all-ism and dares to be sarcastic as if he/she/it has found the definitive proof for Fermat's Last Theorem. That, and other problems and assumptions.


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Re: question on teachers
Manne janne #3027660 09/21/20 10:47 PM
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Then I must be wrong too. Well, in my post I did ask to be corrected if I was wrong but that part seems not to have been seen. If there is any scale that does not have the pattern of 1231234(5) in it when going up several octaves, can this scale be named. I do not mean scales such as octatonic, whole tone, pentatonic but the regular 8 notes to an octave scale.

Is it in fact incorrect that scales have this pattern, which may start on a different note than the tonic?

If it is incorrect, then I am wrong.

In regard to "sarcasm" (which I didn't see), this does not influence whether the idea is right or wrong.

Re: question on teachers
Manne janne #3027668 09/22/20 12:28 AM
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If the OP had written:

Quote
. . . I have never had a teacher telling me that scales use the same finger patterns but start the pattern on different notes scale degrees. . .

I would have immediately thought:

. . . "Oh -- he figured it out!"

I suspected that's what he meant, but didn't have the right technical vocabulary at hand, to say. It took me a little while to confirm it.

There are holes in our understanding, and sometimes it takes some hunting, and filing, and sanding, to find the conceptual piece that fills the hole. And often -- if you're lucky -- the next thought is:

. . . "Eh? There's a _name_ for that?<g>"

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Re: question on teachers
keystring #3027671 09/22/20 12:53 AM
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Originally Posted by keystring
Is it in fact incorrect that scales have this pattern, which may start on a different note than the tonic?

Why is this question even being asked?

Not that it's anything pertinent to the OP, but there are actually specific situations in music where the 123-1234 rule will be (or can be) broken. In two of these situations, the "broken" rule is preferable for the sake of simplicity. These are the outliers, in specific situations.

If the OP wants to learn that information, he/she/it will need to pay me $$.


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Re: question on teachers
AZNpiano #3027733 09/22/20 06:26 AM
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Originally Posted by AZNpiano
Originally Posted by keystring
Is it in fact incorrect that scales have this pattern, which may start on a different note than the tonic?

Why is this question even being asked?
It is being asked, because I understood you to be saying that the ideas I saw in the opening post --- badly written as it was ---- was utterly and completely wrong. Meaning that nothing at all in there was correct. Including what I myself understood about scales. I suspect a miscommunication all round. it's all good.

Re: question on teachers
Manne janne #3027736 09/22/20 06:36 AM
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What is the purpose of continuing this thread? Purely a rhetorical question: I am not liking for a reply. Since I attempted to provide the fingering for scales, which I thought the OP needed, and was told I must not understand fundamentals, I have seen no reason to participate.


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Re: question on teachers
Manne janne #3027741 09/22/20 06:54 AM
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Ok, I looked more carefully at the thread. First - was the opening post originally worded as I see it now? It seems shorter than I remember. Unpacking this.

* The tone in both posts is rude, especially the second one (which I didn't see until now - it's on the 2nd page I think). The thread is entitled "question" but mostly it's a lecture, and put-downs on teachers, with a certain air of superiority (unwarranted). The "question" appears to be how to find a teacher who would teach these kinds of things. The "on" teachers, rather than "to" teachers I suppose hints at it. "Question on how to find a given type of teacher" may have been a clearer title.

* In the post, there is an idea, and that is what I focused on originally. Namely that somewhere in a scale you will find the pattern 123 1234(5). You may not get to the "1" until the Mediant or some other note, but it's there. I found this to be an important concept, and it brings you past blindly memorizing a gazillion finger numbers. If any student who is starting to learn is reading this, it seemed a good thing to be aware of. I didn't want the baby to be thrown out with the bathwater through "completely false" because this idea is not completely false - there is truth to it. The whole thing was poorly stated, however, and especially because it was not stated by a teacher or an expert. -- The idea also of looking more deeply (or intelligently) at scales and fingering, this is also not a false idea. The when and how is another matter. There are also other aspects beyond that pattern that was highlighted. You want a proper teacher for that. And AZNpiano was correct in suggesting a teacher change.

[i]To the question on finding such a teacher[/i ]

Attitude. Attitude. Attitude.

Two scenarios. Supposing you get a teacher who does know these things and is capable of teaching them. Teachers face an ongoing problem where students will not bother to do or follow up on what they're told. Older students will also often "know better" than the teacher, and thus not follow the guidance, or be selective on what they'll try. Having this experience oodles of times over the years, they will be tempted not to bother unless the student shows signs of being worth it, through their attitude. Otherwise the teacher can also give the necessary minimum: say, dictating the standard finger numbers that we seen on the chart that ws provided here. You won't get, what you could.

If you show bad attitude, you might not even get in the door with a good teacher.

That's part of how to find and get such a teacher.

Meanwhile, I get the anger if you have indeed been mistaught, and wasted your time doing inefficient things. Assuming that you went along with what you were told with an open mind, and it was the wrong thing. A lot of us have been there, and in fact if you ask professional musicians and teachers, many of them will probably tell you stories of this and that poor teaching. They got there despite it, by persevering. You do NOT want to be projecting your anger, suspicion, or disdain, toward teachers you are consulting.

Another obstacle, if you have been poorly taught and consult a new teacher, is that because of the poor teaching you received, you will come across as ignorant, because the poor teaching created that ignorance. I myself was in that boat. Even if I did manage to understand something on my own, trying to express it, I sounded like a gibbering idiot, because I did not have the vocab or the "ways". I am much more likely to land a good teacher if I had to find a new one, or started a new instrument, because I know how to express myself, how to listen, how to ask questions, and how to work. BECAUSE I've had good teaching since then, and it gave me that.

I don't know if the OP will even be back, but here's my answer. For the OP or any other fellow student who is asking a similar question now or in the future. Peace out! smile

Re: question on teachers
Manne janne #3027747 09/22/20 07:39 AM
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Keystring
Is there a necessity of memorizing a gazillion fingerings for scales if you look for the FINGERING pattern: thumb never on s flat/sharp and long fingers on flats/sharps. Doesn’t this always work without memorizing?


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Re: question on teachers
AZNpiano #3027761 09/22/20 08:18 AM
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Originally Posted by AZNpiano
Originally Posted by TimR
But the OP is not totally wrong.

1231234 does work for major scales if and only if you start on the right finger, not necessarily 1, and avoid thumb on black keys where possible. I think that's what he/she intended.

And working this out for yourself is a good exercise.

It does sound like the teacher could have explained better.

Tim, the OP is completely and utterly wrong. There was no mention of starting on a different finger. Thus, it would be natural to assume that whatever 1231234 is given, 1 is the first finger to be used.

Telltale signs of a Transfer Wreck.

I made the charitable guess that this is not a native English speaker, based on the name and the grammar, and assumed that he meant the finger rather than the note.

Looking at some other posts I'm not sure that was accurate. I don't think it's a transfer wreck though, I think he's mostly self taught.


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Re: question on teachers
keystring #3027827 09/22/20 11:53 AM
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Originally Posted by keystring
Ok, I looked more carefully at the thread. First - was the opening post originally worded as I see it now? It seems shorter than I remember. Unpacking this.

* The tone in both posts is rude, especially the second one (which I didn't see until now - it's on the 2nd page I think). The thread is entitled "question" but mostly it's a lecture, and put-downs on teachers, with a certain air of superiority (unwarranted). The "question" appears to be how to find a teacher who would teach these kinds of things. The "on" teachers, rather than "to" teachers I suppose hints at it. "Question on how to find a given type of teacher" may have been a clearer title.

keystring, your first point is what I had posted earlier in this thread (which was conveniently ignored) and which I believe was the point of OP’s original post. Unfortunately, this is the internet and people will grab onto whichever point they feel they can contribute to, and here, that seems to have been about the correct scale fingering aspect. (Like I have done many times in the past myself.) Although I still don’t believe that was OP’s point for the post. It was simply a rant about the shortcomings of teachers. He wasn’t genuinely interested in asking about people’s views on scale fingering. He said he had already figured that out for himself. I would suggest people re-read OP’s post. I feel like everyone’s been duped, drawn into an argument or discussion that wasn’t even the point of the original post. But maybe nobody cares, which is also fair, lol. wink

Perhaps this is a situation where people can’t see the forest for the trees.

Last edited by WeakLeftHand; 09/22/20 11:57 AM.

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Re: question on teachers
Manne janne #3027850 09/22/20 12:34 PM
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In case this has any bearing on the matter, the OP is Norwegian, English is obviously not his native language, and his instrument is the accordion (not piano, which is just a sideline), and he's principally interested in folk music.

Case closed. cool


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Re: question on teachers
TimR #3027923 09/22/20 03:20 PM
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Originally Posted by TimR
Looking at some other posts I'm not sure that was accurate. I don't think it's a transfer wreck though, I think he's mostly self taught.

Oh, those are even worse!

I once had someone who is completely self-taught, who came to me with a Chopin waltz.

First, I'm amazed that he got this far on his own, especially with all the flats in the key signature.

But the technique is all wrong. His forearms were hard as a rock. There was enough tension to implode a grand piano. And I had to try NOT to laugh at his fingering, which made zero sense. He told me his dream is to play Islamey.

The longer a person is self-taught, the more impossible it is to start over properly.


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Re: question on teachers
bennevis #3027925 09/22/20 03:30 PM
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Originally Posted by bennevis
In case this has any bearing on the matter, the OP is Norwegian, English is obviously not his native language, and his instrument is the accordion (not piano, which is just a sideline), and he's principally interested in folk music.

Case closed. cool

His English is far better than my Norwegian!

And an accordion is easier to carry than a piano.


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Re: question on teachers
TimR #3028011 09/22/20 07:44 PM
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Originally Posted by TimR
Originally Posted by bennevis
In case this has any bearing on the matter, the OP is Norwegian, English is obviously not his native language, and his instrument is the accordion (not piano, which is just a sideline), and he's principally interested in folk music.

Case closed. cool

His English is far better than my Norwegian!

And an accordion is easier to carry than a piano.

And probably easier to get into the back seat of an automobile than one's elderly mother. smile


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Re: question on teachers
dogperson #3028037 09/22/20 09:16 PM
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Originally Posted by dogperson
Keystring
Is there a necessity of memorizing a gazillion fingerings for scales if you look for the FINGERING pattern: thumb never on s flat/sharp and long fingers on flats/sharps. Doesn’t this always work without memorizing?
That was one of the points sort of. We agree.

Re: question on teachers
Manne janne #3028406 09/24/20 01:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Manne janne
Do teacher forget to tell their students all the basics of playing scales or is it that I am the only one who need this analysis?
I want to find a good piano teacher who can help me go deep into the basics of playing the piano. This is why I asked this question.

Don't worry OP, I understand what you mean even if you maybe didn't explain it very clearly.

I think that what you just coming up against how adults learn vs children. Basic music teaching lays out stuff to children one thing at a time so as not to overwhelm them. They learn by doing and don't really care how much more there is to learn. Whereas as adults we get scared when we can see vast complex patterns (like all the possible scale patterns and fingering) stretching out in front of us. We like to have a ruleset and even if the ruleset is a bit complicated with exceptions we are happier than just learning one thing at a time.

Unfortunately music is not really taught that way (presumably because the teachers all learnt as kids, just teach the way they were taught and see no reason to change.)

You might want to google Michael New on Youtube. He has a series of videos for adults where he goes through a lot of the very basic keyboard patterns and rulesets. The comments are full of people saying "why did no-one ever explain this before?"

Last edited by scirocco; 09/24/20 01:27 AM.

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Re: question on teachers
scirocco #3028434 09/24/20 04:54 AM
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Originally Posted by scirocco
I think that what you just coming up against how adults learn vs children. Basic music teaching lays out stuff to children one thing at a time so as not to overwhelm them. They learn by doing and don't really care how much more there is to learn. Whereas as adults we get scared when we can see vast complex patterns (like all the possible scale patterns and fingering) stretching out in front of us. We like to have a ruleset and even if the ruleset is a bit complicated with exceptions we are happier than just learning one thing at a time.
There's no reason why adults can't learn the way children do (and are generally taught) - little by little, the same sort of stuff gradually increasing in complexity as they progress. Stuff like rhythms, note values, speed, number of notes in chords (starting with single notes in each hand, not melody RH and three note chords LH).........scales and arpeggios.

What is the point of learning all the scales all at once - which is what the OP is apparently trying to so, and what so many adult beginners do (judging from posts in ABF)? When are they actually going to encounter a piece in B major, let alone D# minor?

What is the point of grappling with a complex syncopated dotted rhythm if they can't even get a straightforward rhythm (once involving nothing more than minims/half notes and crotchets/quarter notes) correct, because they don't know how to count beats properly.....because they don't even know where the beat falls?

But many adult beginners are doing precisely that - especially (but not just) the self-learners.

Quote
Unfortunately music is not really taught that way (presumably because the teachers all learnt as kids, just teach the way they were taught and see no reason to change.)
The problem is adults refusing to be taught the way good teachers would like to teach them - starting with mastering the basics, and mastering them properly. No wonder they flounder after romping through (and riding roughshod over) the "easy" beginner's bits. Too easy for them to take time over and master - much better to start with The Entertainer, because they want to entertain friends and family from the off.

If adults have the right mind-set, they are fully capable of learning not just as well, but better than children.


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Re: question on teachers
scirocco #3028513 09/24/20 10:06 AM
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Originally Posted by scirocco
He has a series of videos for adults where he goes through a lot of the very basic keyboard patterns and rulesets. The comments are full of people saying "why did no-one ever explain this before?"

Why indeed?

Or maybe, they did.

Apologies for bringing in an example from the handbell world.

A while back I booked a workshop session with my ringers with one of the respected teachers who does clinics. She took them through fundamentals in great detail and then on to some more advanced topics, and gave hands on corrections and advice. It was sort of an all day master class for the group.

The group enjoyed the day, but the most common comment from members afterword was "wow, I never knew XXX." But the strange thing was she didn't tell them anything I hadn't covered myself with them - nothing was actually new! But to them it was.

At the end of the day I was feeling I must have been doing okay, because she and I were basically in sync with everything, but apparently there was a failure to communicate, or remember, or something.


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Re: question on teachers
scirocco #3028584 09/24/20 01:20 PM
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Originally Posted by scirocco
.... I understand what ....
I was glad to see this positive tone. I've been thinking about this thread. These places are visited by folks who are learning, and even by teachers getting new ideas or sharing them, so they go beyond whoever is asking a question and is not just for them.
Quote
We like to have a ruleset and even if the ruleset is a bit complicated ...
My thoughts were from a slightly different angle.

There is sense behind things, or a feel to them. It is not really just a matter of memorizing fingering patterns one by one, or even sharps and flats. What's behind that? I'm thinking that this other side isn't even just for older students. Well, very young children are famous for asking "why" until maybe they are trained not to and just do what you're told. In any case, it's useful and sensible.

For example: In fingering there is indeed this repeated pattern that happens somewhere within a scale played over more than one octave, where you are starting at one point of a repeated series - with a few exceptions here and there. This is useful to know. There is also the fact of our long and short fingers vis-a-vis the configuration of the keyboard: it's a matter of ease and practicality. You don't start Db major with the thumb for obvious reasons. In fact, if you were told to find what is the most convenient and easy, you'd probably come up with the standard fingering. I know a few teachers who give young students some challenges to get them to start thinking that way, and be more than trained seals. So I think the question (but not the mood and tone in which it was given) may be an important one.

When I first joined PW, a teacher here was in mid-dilemma. His or her student had just come up with fingering other than that prescribed in the books, which made total sense for that student's hands, and the issue was that it might lose marks in the exam with a pedantic examiner. Yet, what the student had just done was to use a very important principle "Always aim for greatest ease and efficiency." Does one betray that for exam marks?

Or here is what happened to me while I was still a violin student, where fingering also matters. I had played a new piece with fingering that was different from what was marked in the book. I told this to a student who was much more advanced, who looked at the book and was outraged at the book's fingering and the reason for it. (Reason was: to get practice in a new "position") The outrage was because it violated the principle of "always seek greatest ease and efficiency". I didn't even know of this principle, and think I should have. I'd think these things are important.

Finally, when I joined PW, before I had a teacher, I did a few things with our Betty - some old timers may remember her. She shared with me one thing she taught all her students: the grouping of scales by category, and those categories went together with what fit under the hands, and which ones shared the same patterns. And some of this can be taught to young students. "Why do you think we use this fingering?" "What do you think would happen if you started Db major with the thumb?" (try it, see what happens)

Well anyway, those were the kinds of thoughts that were floating around my head the last couple of days. They may be useless or unwanted, but there they are.

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