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Re: Modeling vs Sampling
MacMacMac #3027562 09/21/20 04:07 PM
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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
With piano VSTs ... I generally don't suffer from post-purchase rationalization.

Nor do I have buyer's remorse ... at least not initially.

But I almost always have reservations about a VST ... which evolves into remorse ... which leads me to the next VST purchase. It's a GAS GAS GAS.

Mmmmm... That sounds familiar to me. I have bought quite a lot of piano VSTs lately (mostly due to positive comments on this forum wink ). My excuse is that they don't take space and I get them always on discounted sales or educational prices... For me it is a valid excuse and it is lovely to be able to choose among a lot of different sounds thumb


Yamaha U3H
Kawai VPC1
plus some other DPs, keyboards and VSTs
Re: Modeling vs Sampling
FloRi89 #3027568 09/21/20 04:38 PM
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I spent lots of time with the Grandeur back when. I had set aside the Vintage D because I did not have adequate control.

But I eventually went back to the Vintage D (because it sounds better), and that forced me to learn better control.
Originally Posted by FloRi89
Really not one that could keep your fancy?

Years earlier I really liked a couple of Vienna (Bosie) pianos, and the Kawai EX Pro. But the Bosies are a bit thin, and that Kawai lacked air.

As for the rest ... I'm starting to get back with the Garritan CFX. I'm having pedaling problems that I've not been able to solve.

I have a Fazioli, too ... but it's much too ordinary. It lacks character.

The old Berlin Grand is still installed, but the other Steinways have it beat.

I have the Giant, the Maverick, and the Gentleman, but I don't use them much anymore.

I long ago uninstalled the Bechstein, 8DIO Legacy, Old Black Grand, Sampletekk White Grand, Alicia's Keys, and a few others.
Those ranged for so-so to major stink, especially Alicia's Keys.

And finally ... the Pianoteq demo is still installed. It serves as a no-cost alternative to Ipecac.

Re: Modeling vs Sampling
Vikendios #3027701 09/22/20 04:17 AM
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What about the Modern U? I‘m surprised that you don’t own that. Lot’s of people seem to really like that one.

Re: Modeling vs Sampling
Vikendios #3027722 09/22/20 05:12 AM
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The G.A.S. has settled down a bit over the past year or so. The CFX was my only recent acquisition. And I don't think I'll be buying more.
That's because I have several good and excellent packages now, and I don't need any more of them.

Re: Modeling vs Sampling
MacMacMac #3027762 09/22/20 08:21 AM
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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
The G.A.S. has settled down a bit over the past year or so. The CFX was my only recent acquisition. And I don't think I'll be buying more.
That's because I have several good and excellent packages now, and I don't need any more of them.

You should try the Modern U, is gorgeous!

I took the plunge on it plus Ravenscroft 275 and also on Signature Grand, Garritan CFX and some extra Pianoteq instruments this Summer, all at discounted prices (my excuse eek) . I am done for some time!


Yamaha U3H
Kawai VPC1
plus some other DPs, keyboards and VSTs
Re: Modeling vs Sampling
FloRi89 #3027777 09/22/20 09:01 AM
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Originally Posted by FloRi89
And Garritan owners believe that's the best, while Pianoteq owners... It's almost if there is a bias for the product where you just left a substential amount of money. Someone should make a study about that...

Hmmm ... I have both Garritan CFX and Pianoteq, and the latter is much more practical in use (e.g. it is fabulous for recording MIDI, and it loads really rapidly), but the former sounds much better. Neither is perfect, and I'm still looking for that perfect VI (and not expecting to find it any time soon).


Roland FP-30, Roland E-28
Pianoteq 6.7.3 (Blüthner, Bechstein DG, Grotrian, Steinway D, K2), Garritan CFX Lite, Production Voices Estate Grand
Re: Modeling vs Sampling
MacMacMac #3027960 09/22/20 05:32 PM
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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
I have a Fazioli, too ... but it's much too ordinary. It lacks character.
Real Faziolis share this limitation as well.

Quote
And finally ... the Pianoteq demo is still installed. It serves as a no-cost alternative to Ipecac.
This is insulting; my family is a pillar in the ipecac syrup industry and we resent our product being compared to Pianoteq.

Re: Modeling vs Sampling
Vikendios #3028088 09/23/20 03:58 AM
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Can someone knowledgeable explain to me briefly what are the sonic advantages and disadvantages of the PCM sampling method compared to other sampling methods and modeling?

Re: Modeling vs Sampling
meghdad #3028092 09/23/20 04:08 AM
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Originally Posted by meghdad
Can someone knowledgeable explain to me briefly what are the sonic advantages and disadvantages of the PCM sampling method compared to other sampling methods and modeling?

PCM is just the technical term for WAV files. It means the sound is sampled periodically (commonly 44100 times a second). I guess there are no other types of sampling. A possible difference could be the usage of lossless (FLAC) or lossy (MP3/AAC, etc.) compression to store the samples.


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Currently: Yamaha N1X, DIY hybrid controller -> Garritan CFX
Previously: NU1X, ES7, MP6, CA63, RD-700SX, CDP-100, FP-5, P90, SP-200
Re: Modeling vs Sampling
CyberGene #3028093 09/23/20 04:17 AM
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Originally Posted by CyberGene
I guess there are no other types of sampling. A possible difference could be the usage of lossless (FLAC) or lossy (MP3/AAC, etc.) compression to store the samples.
So if there's no other type of sampling, does that mean that for example the difference between Pure CF Yamaha sound engine and simply termed PCM Sampling of Korg only boils down to the manual process of capturing the sound (and perhaps further post-processing)?

I mean, essentially there shouldn't be much of a difference between them then, if at all right? It's not rocket science and it's old technology right?

Last edited by meghdad; 09/23/20 04:18 AM.
Re: Modeling vs Sampling
meghdad #3028095 09/23/20 04:25 AM
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Originally Posted by meghdad
Originally Posted by CyberGene
I guess there are no other types of sampling. A possible difference could be the usage of lossless (FLAC) or lossy (MP3/AAC, etc.) compression to store the samples.
So if there's no other type of sampling, does that mean that for example the difference between Pure CF Yamaha sound engine and simply termed PCM Sampling of Korg only boils down to the manual process of capturing the sound (and perhaps further post-processing)?

I mean, essentially there shouldn't be much of a difference between them then, if at all right? It's not rocket science and it's old technology right?

All sampling methods involve recording the original piano as WAV files, multiple velocities, all keys, pedal up and down, release samples, etc.

When they mention some fancy names such as "pure CF sampling", "supernatural", etc. they (apart from the obvious marketing BS) mean that there may be some clever technology in the reproduction of the samples, such as to make looping less obvious, sample interpolation between velocity layers to make switch less obvious, round-robin of samples for more variety, etc. However I am yet to see a company reveal any of these beside vague hints, so it's ultimately up to how well the piano plays and sounds to you.


My YouTube, My Soundcloud
Currently: Yamaha N1X, DIY hybrid controller -> Garritan CFX
Previously: NU1X, ES7, MP6, CA63, RD-700SX, CDP-100, FP-5, P90, SP-200
Re: Modeling vs Sampling
CyberGene #3028121 09/23/20 07:02 AM
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Originally Posted by CyberGene
Originally Posted by meghdad
Can someone knowledgeable explain to me briefly what are the sonic advantages and disadvantages of the PCM sampling method compared to other sampling methods and modeling?

PCM is just the technical term for WAV files. It means the sound is sampled periodically (commonly 44100 times a second). I guess there are no other types of sampling.

You guessed wrong. PCM is not a technical term for RIFF WAVE files - the official name for the file format. This is due to the fact, that WAV files are containers, which can store all kinds of multi-channel audio formats including compressed audio like MP3 and AAC (which employ their own MPEG container formats, but you don't have to use those).

PCM is a term for Pulse-Code Modulation, which is one of several methods of sampling, which got well known with the introduction of the CD Digital Audio. But it's not the only one, for example the SACD uses Delta-sigma Modulation, which is Pulse-Density Modulation (PDM).

So when Korg states they used PCM sampling, then they just stated they used the most wide-spread sampling method, because their hardware processes PCM data.


Richwood RD-17C-CE | LaMancha Rubi CM-N | Yamaha P-515
Re: Modeling vs Sampling
meghdad #3028124 09/23/20 07:19 AM
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I can appreciate your curiosity ...
Originally Posted by meghdad
Can someone knowledgeable explain to me briefly what are the sonic advantages and disadvantages of the PCM sampling method compared to other sampling methods and modeling?
But consider this: The underlying tech doesn't really matter. Here's why:

1. The piano takes from your fingers and gives to your ears. In between those two points the piano does some work. Does it matter how? Or can we simply judge (a) how the piano feels and (b) how the piano sounds? And maybe (c) how the piano looks? To me these are the only things that matter.

2. Descriptions of "what's under the hood" are often distorted by misunderstanding, and especially by marketing jargon, nonsense, rubbish, balderdash, gibberish, blarney, guff, blather, claptrap, and gobbledygook. Stuff to be ignored. smile

Re: Modeling vs Sampling
JoeT #3028127 09/23/20 07:36 AM
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Originally Posted by JoeT
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Originally Posted by meghdad
Can someone knowledgeable explain to me briefly what are the sonic advantages and disadvantages of the PCM sampling method compared to other sampling methods and modeling?

PCM is just the technical term for WAV files. It means the sound is sampled periodically (commonly 44100 times a second). I guess there are no other types of sampling.

You guessed wrong. PCM is not a technical term for RIFF WAVE files - the official name for the file format. This is due to the fact, that WAV files are containers, which can store all kinds of multi-channel audio formats including compressed audio like MP3 and AAC (which employ their own MPEG container formats, but you don't have to use those).

PCM is a term for Pulse-Code Modulation, which is one of several methods of sampling, which got well known with the introduction of the CD Digital Audio. But it's not the only one, for example the SACD uses Delta-sigma Modulation, which is Pulse-Density Modulation (PDM).

So when Korg states they used PCM sampling, then they just stated they used the most wide-spread sampling method, because their hardware processes PCM data.

I explained to the guy who asked about PCM that PCM = WAVE file because that's how I believe he can understand it and that's what most people understand when they use WAV files smile

Regarding the sigma-delta 1-bit modulation, I haven't heard a digital piano manufacturer that use it, which is why I *guess* there are no other sampling methods *currently in use*. The sigma-delta sampling is pretty difficult (if not impossible) for further DSP processing such as EQ-ing and even for sample manipulation such as looping and gain-control over the looped section and the other piano-related audio manipulations related to sample-based piano playback which is why I believe there are no usages of sigma-delta. If you know of a DP-manufacturer or VST sample-based piano that uses sigma-delta, I'd be interested to learn.

As an offtopic, as always, when you try to explain something in a simpler way to someone who apparently isn't familiar with audio concepts, there will be the smart-pants guy who will correct you... wink Hopefully meghad now understands what a container is and what a codec is and all that stuff laugh


My YouTube, My Soundcloud
Currently: Yamaha N1X, DIY hybrid controller -> Garritan CFX
Previously: NU1X, ES7, MP6, CA63, RD-700SX, CDP-100, FP-5, P90, SP-200
Re: Modeling vs Sampling
Vikendios #3028138 09/23/20 08:28 AM
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Well thanks! But guess what, I am a software developer by day and piano learner by night! laugh So I am familiar with the containers and formats and what not. I just needed to know if there are other piano sampling methods which is why I asked a comparative question. smile

Re: Modeling vs Sampling
Vikendios #3028199 09/23/20 11:56 AM
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Have you considered developing software by day that could aid in learning the piano by night?

Re: Modeling vs Sampling
meghdad #3028235 09/23/20 01:09 PM
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Originally Posted by meghdad
Well thanks! But guess what, I am a software developer by day and piano learner by night! laugh So I am familiar with the containers and formats and what not. I just needed to know if there are other piano sampling methods which is why I asked a comparative question. smile
You have an answer about AWM (Advanced Wave Memory of Yamaha) :

http://www.motifator.com/index.php/forum/viewthread/454955/

But as a proprietary technology, you won’t know much about the internals.

Last edited by Frédéric L; 09/23/20 01:10 PM.

Yamaha CLP150, Bechstein Digital Grand, Garritan CFX, Ivory II pianos, Galaxy pianos, EWQL Pianos, Native-Instrument The Definitive Piano Collection, Soniccouture Hammersmith, Truekeys, Pianoteq
Re: Modeling vs Sampling
Vikendios #3028280 09/23/20 03:29 PM
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@FL: That link from 2011 sounds a bit like this one in 2020.

Q: What is AWM? What is AWM2?
A: They are marketing mumbledy-bum.

Q: What's the technology?
A1: Why does it matter?
A2: But I really want to know!
A3: Speculation has it that bits and bytes and blah-blah-blah mumbledy-bum. (All guesswork. No facts.)

My conclusion: Just listen.

If it sounds good, does it matter how many bits it has?
If it sounds bad, does it matter how many bits it has?

Re: Modeling vs Sampling
Vikendios #3028298 09/23/20 04:29 PM
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MacMacMac You know you are just posting noise into threads?


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Re: Modeling vs Sampling
MacMacMac #3028313 09/23/20 05:22 PM
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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
[...]If it sounds bad, does it matter how many bits it has?
Yes, so that you can insult the manufacturer a "bit" more! laugh

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