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Re: Modeling vs Sampling
TheodorN #3027372 09/21/20 07:26 AM
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Originally Posted by TheodorN
Is looped sustain as big a problem as many say it is? Can't we just drown it in reverb, LOL?
Is not a big problem, but of course it makes the piano sounds more digital, especially if the loop starts after less than 2 seconds from the attack. Reverb, chorus and resonance effects could make the loop less obvious, but you will lose the clarity and the character of the original sampled note.
If the looped part started after 10 seconds from the attack, we wouldn't even notice the presence of a loop. But that would require much more storage memory for the samples and we know most DP manufacturers are very "stingy" about the amount of storage memory for the samples. I think Dexibell is one of the few (maybe the only) DP manufacturers that makes sample-based piano engines with up to 15 seconds for the attack sound of the lower notes.

Re: Modeling vs Sampling
Vikendios #3027374 09/21/20 07:36 AM
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Originally Posted by TheodorN
Is looped sustain as big a problem as many say it is? Can't we just drown it in reverb, LOL?

Unlooped samples is the only thing PC sample libraries had going for them, while they get everything else wrong. (We have unlooped hardware implementations, too. Not in the mainstream brands though.)

Originally Posted by "U3piano"
The looped samples on my yamaha cp33 were terribly noticable.

Well, TruePianos 1.0 and Pianoteq 1.0 sound terrible as well.

The CP33 was a 64-polyphony stage piano released in ancient history, when USB to HOST was bleeding edge. We have 2020 now and the CP88 is current.

Originally Posted by Seb Clement
Are you claiming that the sampling technology is the current crop of digital pianos is better than software alternatives?

For acoustic grand piano simulation: Indeed. And the hardware modeling alternatives are also better than what's available as software plugin. If you've had read the entire thread, you would have noticed the OP didn't care at all about comparing outdated software solutions for the umpth time, this is what he wrote coming out of the Kawai thread:

Originally Posted by Vikendios
There seems to be quite a few misunderstandings about the difference between Modeling and Sampling, which are quite different technologies for Digital Pianos. Today, full modeling is only offered by Roland and Viscount/Physis (originally developed by the latter for their organs[...]


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Re: Modeling vs Sampling
magicpiano #3027391 09/21/20 09:04 AM
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Originally Posted by magicpiano
Originally Posted by Del Vento
Originally Posted by magicpiano
I think he refers just to the half-pedaling thing. Most digital pianos engines have good implementations of the half-pedaling.

But then most (all?) digital piano have such short sustains (probably to hide looping?) that it's kind of useless....
That's not my experience with my Kawai DP (CN37). It has such a long and powerful sustain that you have to learn to use the pedal with great care if you want to get a nice sound. And if you want you can even make the sustain longer (or shorter) by changing a parameter in the options.

Interesting. Admittedly I have not tried the latest crop of Kawai DP yet, but I was not expecting this from the Progressive Harmonic Imaging the CN37 and current CN39 have. Why? Because one of the pluses of the top of the line Harmonic Imaging XL (HI-XL) is the eXtra Long samples. I guess that's another reason to go to the Kawai dealer, in addition to testing the NV-5 laugh (even though I cannot afford it)

So let me rephrase my comment with

All digital pianos I have tried have such short sustains that the point is moot for slow playing, including the one I own, the NU1. And let me be even more specific, to avoid contributing to blanket statements which are plaguing this thread: stopwatch in hand, I measured sustain with PianoTeq (demo) being about the same as my golden era grand, and twice as long as the default NU1 engine.

Re: Modeling vs Sampling
JoeT #3027394 09/21/20 09:13 AM
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Originally Posted by "U3piano"
The looped samples on my yamaha cp33 were terribly noticable.

Originally Posted by "JoeT"
Well, TruePianos 1.0 and Pianoteq 1.0 sound terrible as well.

The CP33 was a 64-polyphony stage piano released in ancient history, when USB to HOST was bleeding edge. We have 2020 now and the CP88 is current.

Fair point, it is old tech.

Originally Posted by Seb Clement
Are you claiming that the sampling technology is the current crop of digital pianos is better than software alternatives?

Originally Posted by "JoeT"
For acoustic grand piano simulation: Indeed.

That would be an opinion, and not that I have tried all dp's, but I disagree. Especially after having experience with vsl synchron piano's, I highly doubt there are dp's that can compare, sampling technology wise.

Re: Modeling vs Sampling
JoeT #3027397 09/21/20 09:19 AM
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Originally Posted by JoeT
Originally Posted by Seb Clement
Are you claiming that the sampling technology is the current crop of digital pianos is better than software alternatives?

For acoustic grand piano simulation: Indeed. And the hardware modeling alternatives are also better than what's available as software plugin. If you've had read the entire thread, you would have noticed the OP didn't care at all about comparing outdated software solutions for the umpth time

Well, threads evolve beyond what the OPs intend. This one had a quite lengthy discussion about BBQ, pizza and liquor... so I guess what we are discussing here is still on topic.

Anyway, interesting hearing about your point of view. I have not tried any of the software samplers myself (because they do not have demos, and I dislike shelling out non-refundable money for something I don't know if I like or not), so I can't express my judgment on that part. But I can tell that PianoTeq (demo) pianos sound marginally better than internal NU1 engine, when played via the same speakers (NU1 ones, with line-in input). To be more specific, by "marginally better" I mean "sounds closer to the sound of an acoustic piano, and less to a 'digital fake', particularly for pathological situation, such as parallel octaves, e.g. Hanon exercises (not that I care about that, just being clear on what I mean)". You may claim that the NU1 is not the NU1x, and that's fair....

On the other hand, if what you say is correct, why many people buy those software pianos when they own the "better" internal sound engine in their instruments which they use as a controller? Maybe just because of updates? E.g. should I have decided to buy PianoTeq, I could update to the current version for $39, whereas updating NU1 to NU1x is thousands? Or perhaps for the flexibility? With PianoTeq I could alter everything I want (e.g. voicing), whereas with the NU1 I'm stuck with the fairly bright Yamaha sound?

Last, but not least, can you provide some specific comparisons e.g. brand and model of piano being better (in what sense) than particular software piano? I'm especially interested if you can compare with Garritan.

Thanks!

Re: Modeling vs Sampling
Del Vento #3027400 09/21/20 09:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Del Vento
Interesting. Admittedly I have not tried the latest crop of Kawai DP yet, but I was not expecting this from the Progressive Harmonic Imaging the CN37 and current CN39 have. Why? Because one of the pluses of the top of the line Harmonic Imaging XL (HI-XL) is the eXtra Long samples. I guess that's another reason to go to the Kawai dealer, in addition to testing the NV-5 laugh (even though I cannot afford it)
It's true that the HI-XL has longer samples, but the duration of the sustain is independent of the sample length, because the piano engine can make the looped sustained part long/short almost as you want.

Re: Modeling vs Sampling
Gombessa #3027406 09/21/20 09:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Del Vento
Matschulat, I totally agreed on the "this is better" part of the discussion, and I am sorry if any of my comments sounded like that (it was not my intention). In fact my experience is that every software or digital piano that I tried sounds horrible, even the worst (in tune) acoustic piano that I have ever tried sounded better, so I am trying to find something to like. Why? Because of the convenience of the digital instrument for certain things. I want to understand if I am doing something wrong, e.g. looking at something that is out of today's possibilities, while overlooking something that can be achieved today and I could be (at least partially) satisfied with. In this regard, I find this discussion extremely useful, e.g. my last exchange with Seb.

Yes, I must agree with you!

Originally Posted by Del Vento
As subjecting as it is, I think it would be useful if you can elaborate on this. I mean, you like Garritan for some specific reasons not like "my favorite color is green, period - there is no other reason". In what regard do you like Garritan better than PianoTeq and in what other regard the other way around? As you very clearly stated, in subjective terms. I think it's fine talking about subjective preference, like some preferring "bright" and other "mellow" in voicing an acoustic instrument, and then further diving deeper by saying "this technician have been able to use a special way to achieve very mellow, but not muffled at all sound". Hope I explained clearly what I am hoping to learn from you.

I think my subjective preference for Garritan instead of Pianoteq is because I find Garritan's piano tone more realist and beautiful. Also, its ambience (which is the real ambience of the studio where the piano was recorded) makes me feel like I'm in a hall playing, and it is also very suitable to recording. But, if I had the money, I'd buy Pianoteq also, since I realize the advantages it has, especially for practicing and getting a more accurate modeling of the physical behaviour of the piano. But I needed a VST for recording, so having the most recording-like sound was the priority for me.

It is subjective in the sense that different products are here to serve to different needs.


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Re: Modeling vs Sampling
Del Vento #3027407 09/21/20 09:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Del Vento
On the other hand, if what you say is correct, why many people buy those software pianos when they own the "better" internal sound engine in their instruments which they use as a controller?

The most controller in use by those guys is the Kawai VPC1 controller, which doesn't have any internal sound engine.

Quote
Last, but not least, can you provide some specific comparisons e.g. brand and model of piano being better (in what sense) than particular software piano? I'm especially interested if you can compare with Garritan.

Many people praising broken software like Garritan CFX are completely unfamiliar with Yamaha's own implementation of their own concert grand, which is far superior especially when it comes to "play-ability". Anything else would be pretty embarrassing for the market leader.

That usually comes up with the spiel that you have to sacrifice sound for play-ability or "treat digital pianos as their own specialy gifted instruments", while being completely oblivious to the fact, that technologies like Yamaha TransAcoustic or Kawai AURES exist.


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Re: Modeling vs Sampling
JoeT #3027410 09/21/20 09:52 AM
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Originally Posted by JoeT
Many people praising broken software like Garritan CFX are completely unfamiliar with Yamaha's own implementation of their own concert grand, which is far superior especially when it comes to "play-ability".

Again, this would be an opinion, not a fact.

Also, it is interesting that some people with n1x's, nv10's and others, choose to use (broken?) software libraries such as garritans or vsl's, instead of using the build in piano sounds.

Re: Modeling vs Sampling
Vikendios #3027416 09/21/20 10:04 AM
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It’s also interesting that N1X owners tend to believe the N1X is better; whilst NV-10 owners are most certain that the NV-10 is better. I wonder why this happens?

Re: Modeling vs Sampling
Pete14 #3027444 09/21/20 11:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Pete14
It’s also interesting that N1X owners tend to believe the N1X is better; whilst NV-10 owners are most certain that the NV-10 is better. I wonder why this happens?

And Garritan owners believe that's the best, while Pianoteq owners... It's almost if there is a bias for the product where you just left a substential amount of money. Someone should make a study about that...

Also MY totally unbiased opinion is that the Clavinova 675 with Pianoteq or the Ravenscroft 275 are UNDENIABLE the best things you can get. (And that's 100% not related to the fact that I own these products :D).

Last edited by FloRi89; 09/21/20 11:34 AM.
Re: Modeling vs Sampling
FloRi89 #3027458 09/21/20 11:54 AM
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I have the Garritan CFX. Do I think it's the best? No.
I have Pianoteq demo. Do I think it's the best? No.
I have the Grandeur. Do I think it's the best? No.
I have several dozen others. Do I think any of them are best? No ... with one exception. The Vintage D is my best.

So the notion that if someone owns X then X he deems X to be best ... doesn't hold for me.
Originally Posted by FloRi89
And Garritan owners believe that's the best, while Pianoteq owners... It's almost if there is a bias for the product where you just left a substential amount of money. Someone should make a study about that.

Re: Modeling vs Sampling
FloRi89 #3027461 09/21/20 12:00 PM
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Originally Posted by FloRi89
Originally Posted by Pete14
It’s also interesting that N1X owners tend to believe the N1X is better; whilst NV-10 owners are most certain that the NV-10 is better. I wonder why this happens?

And Garritan owners believe that's the best, while Pianoteq owners... It's almost if there is a bias for the product where you just left a substential amount of money. Someone should make a study about that...

Also MY totally unbiased opinion is that the Clavinova 675 with Pianoteq or the Ravenscroft 275 are UNDENIABLE the best things you can get. (And that's 100% not related to the fact that I own these products :D).

This is partially obvious (one would not buy something they think is bad) and partially known psychological fact (coping with buyer's remorse, check it on wikipedia). The kind of answers I was looking with my question was the one matschulat wrote about. Thanks a lot for that matschulat!

Let me answer myself for others who might be interested. I bought my NU1 because I found it second hand from a friend at a steal price and it has much better action than the very old Kawai CA it replaced. I did not pay attention to the sound and I actually don't like too much the sound of either instruments (but I do liked that the sound from CA was somewhat customizable, whereas the NU1 sound is not). After the comments by Seb, I am actually not paying attention to the "I don't like the sound" anymore. and instead I am paying attention to the "what I can do better with this sound". And I'm already pleased with the (slight) improvements I'm seeing in my playing, because after all, that is what matters to me.

Thanks

Re: Modeling vs Sampling
Vikendios #3027464 09/21/20 12:02 PM
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Well, I drive a Kia Picanto, but still I think a Porche Carrera would be better.

Re: Modeling vs Sampling
MacMacMac #3027466 09/21/20 12:02 PM
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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
I have the Garritan CFX. Do I think it's the best? No.
I have Pianoteq demo. Do I think it's the best? No.
I have the Grandeur. Do I think it's the best? No.
I have several dozen others. Do I think any of them are best? No ... with one exception. The Vintage D is my best.

So the notion that if someone owns X then X he deems X to be best ... doesn't hold for me.

To make this answer useful to others (please see my previous posts for details), can you kindly elaborate on what do you like (or not) of each one (if anything) and why that one is best for you?

Re: Modeling vs Sampling
U3piano #3027477 09/21/20 12:17 PM
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Originally Posted by U3piano
Well, I drive a Kia Picanto, but still I think a Porche Carrera would be better.

So thinks Belastingdienst as well!

Re: Modeling vs Sampling
U3piano #3027486 09/21/20 12:39 PM
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Originally Posted by U3piano
Well, I drive a Kia Picanto, but still I think a Porche Carrera would be better.

Well most likely you are still convinced that this Kia was the best option for you and have reasons why that is so.

It’s called „post purchase rationalization“ and pretty well researched. Unless you have a case of buyers remorse, that also happens more often then one might think.

Funny enough though, a coping mechanism for buyers remorse is again rationalization of the purchase, so it can lead to the same thing: Overlooking of obvious flaws of a single purchase.

Re: Modeling vs Sampling
Vikendios #3027523 09/21/20 02:47 PM
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With piano VSTs ... I generally don't suffer from post-purchase rationalization.

Nor do I have buyer's remorse ... at least not initially.

But I almost always have reservations about a VST ... which evolves into remorse ... which leads me to the next VST purchase. It's a GAS GAS GAS.

Re: Modeling vs Sampling
Vikendios #3027531 09/21/20 03:04 PM
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Originally Posted by JoeT
Originally Posted by Del Vento
On the other hand, if what you say is correct, why many people buy those software pianos when they own the "better" internal sound engine in their instruments which they use as a controller?

The most controller in use by those guys is the Kawai VPC1 controller, which doesn't have any internal sound engine.

Quote
Last, but not least, can you provide some specific comparisons e.g. brand and model of piano being better (in what sense) than particular software piano? I'm especially interested if you can compare with Garritan.

Many people praising broken software like Garritan CFX are completely unfamiliar with Yamaha's own implementation of their own concert grand, which is far superior especially when it comes to "play-ability". Anything else would be pretty embarrassing for the market leader.

That usually comes up with the spiel that you have to sacrifice sound for play-ability or "treat digital pianos as their own specialy gifted instruments", while being completely oblivious to the fact, that technologies like Yamaha TransAcoustic or Kawai AURES exist.

You know JoeT, you seem to be talking a lot of **** and saying programs like Garritan are "broken", but I don't see you giving any details to validate that contrarian stance.

Re: Modeling vs Sampling
MacMacMac #3027561 09/21/20 04:04 PM
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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
With piano VSTs ... I generally don't suffer from post-purchase rationalization.

Nor do I have buyer's remorse ... at least not initially.

But I almost always have reservations about a VST ... which evolves into remorse ... which leads me to the next VST purchase. It's a GAS GAS GAS.

That will explain the amount of VSTs you listed before ^^. Really not one that could keep your fancy?

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