2017 was our 20th year online!

Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 3 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Shop our online store for music lovers
SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Wessell Nickel & Gross
PianoForAll
(ad)
Best of Piano Buyer
 Best of Piano Buyer
(ad)
Faust Harrison Pianos
Faust Harrison 100+ Steinway pianos
Who's Online Now
64 members (anotherscott, 36251, Adem, Boboulus, Beowulf, chih-wei, 18 invisible), 521 guests, and 464 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
playing into the piano vs pulling out of the keys
#3026618 09/19/20 03:56 AM
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 56
B
Barly Offline OP
Full Member
OP Offline
Full Member
B
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 56
I can't for the life of me find where I read about those two schools, and then sometimes methods depending on the character of the piece played. I think this may have been an old thing, something like two ways already in the 19th century, or shifting from one to the other at the beginning of the 20th or the like.

Does that ring a bell with anyone here?

Re: playing into the piano vs pulling out of the keys
Barly #3026773 09/19/20 12:18 PM
Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 102
I
Ido Offline
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
I
Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 102
If I understand you correctly, you talk about the fingers extending into the keys with the arm moving in a pushing motion vs the fingers pulling on the keys without pushing from the arm.

If so, Tobias Matthay discussed it extensively.
Have a look at this book:
book

Last edited by Ido; 09/19/20 12:19 PM.
Re: playing into the piano vs pulling out of the keys
Barly #3026793 09/19/20 01:25 PM
Joined: May 2020
Posts: 79
A
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
A
Joined: May 2020
Posts: 79
My piano teacher (virtually) keep mentioning this? I cannot seem to understand exactly what he wants me to do in regards to ''playing into the piano'' it seems something linked with him wanting me to play more legato? I would be very intrigued if anyone could answer this/ provide an video example. Thanks

Re: playing into the piano vs pulling out of the keys
Ido #3026837 09/19/20 03:28 PM
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 56
B
Barly Offline OP
Full Member
OP Offline
Full Member
B
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 56
Originally Posted by Ido
If I understand you correctly, you talk about the fingers extending into the keys with the arm moving in a pushing motion vs the fingers pulling on the keys without pushing from the arm.

If so, Tobias Matthay discussed it extensively.

Yes, I think that's part of it, thank you. This might help me find where it's being discussed as a phenomenon of two approaches.

Re: playing into the piano vs pulling out of the keys
Barly #3026842 09/19/20 03:45 PM
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 13,902
B
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
B
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 13,902
Fortunately, my teachers never burdened me with such abstruse descriptive terms.

Looking at them as a objective observer wink , I'd assume that 'playing into the piano' means that you 'follow through' your finger movements until your fingers have sunk right into the key bed, while 'pulling out of the keys' means a stroking movement with finger 'pulling' towards you as it releases the key.

But I could be totally wrong, as my English is of non-Herculean proportions......


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
Re: playing into the piano vs pulling out of the keys
bennevis #3026846 09/19/20 03:53 PM
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 56
B
Barly Offline OP
Full Member
OP Offline
Full Member
B
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 56
Exactly. Just wringing my brains to think of where I saw that.

Re: playing into the piano vs pulling out of the keys
Barly #3026867 09/19/20 04:28 PM
Joined: May 2020
Posts: 595
J
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
J
Joined: May 2020
Posts: 595
headscratch.. I'd assume the difference would be the change in the angle of the attack or a change in angle of follow through.

Re: playing into the piano vs pulling out of the keys
Barly #3026877 09/19/20 04:52 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 8,949
8000 Post Club Member
Offline
8000 Post Club Member
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 8,949
Both of these descriptions are used to describe how to play big chords LOUDLY.

You can pull out of the keys if you are doing staccato chords, or if you can use the pedal to connect the chords.

You play into the piano if you need to hold on to the chord long enough to change the pedal.

So, the difference is legato. That's all.


Private Piano Teacher and MTAC Member
Re: playing into the piano vs pulling out of the keys
Barly #3027047 09/20/20 06:46 AM
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 56
B
Barly Offline OP
Full Member
OP Offline
Full Member
B
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 56
Yes. I'm just trying to find where I saw that mentioned as two opposing schools, probably referring to the turn of the 19th and 20th centuries, but written later.

Re: playing into the piano vs pulling out of the keys
Barly #3027197 09/20/20 02:19 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 8,949
8000 Post Club Member
Offline
8000 Post Club Member
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 8,949
Originally Posted by Barly
Yes. I'm just trying to find where I saw that mentioned as two opposing schools, probably referring to the turn of the 19th and 20th centuries, but written later.

Instead of thinking "opposing schools," maybe they are just different ways of achieving the same thing, and not categorized as any particular "school"? In fact, I think any "school" of teaching would incorporate both ideas. It's not one or the other. You need both.


Private Piano Teacher and MTAC Member
Re: playing into the piano vs pulling out of the keys
Barly #3027201 09/20/20 02:28 PM
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 56
B
Barly Offline OP
Full Member
OP Offline
Full Member
B
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 56
Yes. I'm just looking for where that was mentioned as two different approaches historically.

Re: playing into the piano vs pulling out of the keys
Barly #3027365 09/21/20 05:00 AM
Joined: May 2016
Posts: 1,853
I
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
I
Joined: May 2016
Posts: 1,853
If you find it, it will be great if you post the quote.

Re: playing into the piano vs pulling out of the keys
Iaroslav Vasiliev #3027366 09/21/20 05:18 AM
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 56
B
Barly Offline OP
Full Member
OP Offline
Full Member
B
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 56
Originally Posted by Iaroslav Vasiliev
If you find it, it will be great if you post the quote.

Of course. (Still searching brain, books and web.)

Re: playing into the piano vs pulling out of the keys
Barly #3027375 09/21/20 06:40 AM
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 2,465
C
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
C
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 2,465
You're talking 'carezzando' touch (jstor) vs normal (poking). Both may employ arm-weight.

Re: playing into the piano vs pulling out of the keys
Barly #3027396 09/21/20 08:17 AM
Joined: May 2016
Posts: 1,853
I
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
I
Joined: May 2016
Posts: 1,853
Originally Posted by chopin_r_us
You're talking 'carezzando' touch (jstor) vs normal (poking). Both may employ arm-weight.

This article requires JSTOR subscription, so I'll quote it here.

Quote
Chopin also commanded certain techniques which were relatively uncommon, even in his own time, and which have become increasingly rare as pianism has continued to evolve. One of these is the caressing touch, in which the finger is not lifted directly from the key but rather slides back towards the palm of the hand, which Johann Nikolaus Forkel described in connection with J. S. Bach's clavichord playing, and Frederic Kalkbrenner mentioned in his 1831 piano treatise. This would later be called the carez- zando style.
Quote
Chopin's student Wilhelm von Lenz described precisely this kind of touch in the context of a particularly trying lesson on Chopin's Nocturne in C minor, op.48 no.1: [Chopin] was no less exacting when it came to the descend- ing C before the quaver rest at the end of the semiquaver group (fourth bar, third beat); the C was either too short or too long. I found a way out by 'combing' this with the thumb, that is by sliding the finger along the key and releas- ing it only upon reaching the outer edge. This way the end of the phrase at last satisfied him; but that was nothing beside Chopin's own playing ...
Quote
The sliding finger said by Jean Kleczyfiski to be used by Chopin, but anathema for years on the piano, was the true eighteenth-century touch for the keyboards of that period, and it was this soft, sliding touch that gave, that still gives, to the old keyboards their charming legato. Modern pianists are quite out of their depth when confronted by instruments of that period. Through the development of piano technique, this touch has become obsolete, and eludes the present-day enthusiasts, who 'dig' for it with the greatest perseverance, and are no nearer the mystery.
Quote
It is true, however, that caressing the keys pre-dated Chopin, and it seems that it was largely associated with musicians of the Parisian school. A prime example is Frederic (born Friedrich) Kalkbrenner, one of the most famous and productive students of the first major instructor of piano at the Paris Conservatory, Louis Adam. In his method Kalkbrenner is clear but brief about the touch: " The manner of striking the note must be infinitely varied, according to the different sentiments one wants to express; now caressing the key, now hurling oneself on it like a lion seizing his prey."
Quote
The individual who codified the carezzando style had, like Chopin, been reared in a provincial Polish environment, and thus originally schooled in a non- Parisian tradition. Antoine de Kontski (1817-1899), born Anton Kotski in Krakow, was a musical prodigy, and his family (he had four similarly preco- cious siblings) moved to Warsaw when he was six or seven.17 From there, he followed the prodigy's tradi- tional track of performances, teaching and composi- tion, taking lessons with John Field in Moscow (1829-30) and later settling in Paris. ... Kontski's pianism was quiet, like that of Adam, Kalkbrenner and Chopin. Like Kalkbrenner, he felt that one should never play from the arm (that is, the whole arm), and that the forearm should be used only in certain circumstances, such as in playing vigorous chordal passages, or in phrasing 'when one wants to sing, caressing the keys'. Kontski is more explicit about the carezzando touch than any other author (indeed, he seems to have coined the term for it), and it is mostly for this that he is remembered by historians of piano technique. For him, carezzando depended on both finger and forearm; not only did the finger draw inward after striking the key, but the forearm drew back as well.


Moderated by  Brendan, Kreisler 

Link Copied to Clipboard
(ad)
Pianoteq
Steinway Spiro Layering
(ad)
PianoDisc

PianoDisc
(ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad)
Mason & Hamlin Pianos
(ad) SWEETWATER Cyber Sale
New Topics - Multiple Forums
playing by ear
by Manne janne - 11/30/20 09:49 AM
what is an extra metallic sound there?
by Maximillyan - 11/30/20 08:25 AM
Hailun 218 vs Feurich 218
by Sonepica - 11/30/20 03:03 AM
The Search Continues--thoughts on Round Three?
by jmiley97302 - 11/29/20 11:15 PM
Why no enough like for Casio GP?
by Harpuia - 11/29/20 11:12 PM
Download Sheet Music
Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads
Forum Statistics
Forums41
Topics203,156
Posts3,028,771
Members99,429
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Please Support Our Advertisers


Faust Harrison 100+ Steinways

Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver

 Best of Piano Buyer

PianoTeq Bechstein
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads



 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter |


copyright 1997 - 2020 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.4