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Re: Does the country of manufacturing matter to you?
PianoStartsAt33 #3026751 09/19/20 11:07 AM
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Re: Does the country of manufacturing matter to you?
PianoStartsAt33 #3026755 09/19/20 11:28 AM
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Re: Does the country of manufacturing matter to you?
PianoStartsAt33 #3026760 09/19/20 11:31 AM
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Not anymore because even Japan made products now are same bad quality as everything else smile

Re: Does the country of manufacturing matter to you?
Nordomus #3026770 09/19/20 12:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Nordomus
Not anymore because even Japan made products now are same bad quality as everything else
That is not my experience overall. Japan still makes some superb industrial and consumer goods; a lot of these are uber-expensive, so not exported. Like the $1,000+ rice cookers. Or the $100,000+ Lexus minivan just for Asia.

Of course there are some bad quality items out of every country.

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Re: Does the country of manufacturing matter to you?
PianoStartsAt33 #3027118 09/20/20 09:51 AM
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Maybe the question would better be like


Does the way humans are treated in manufacturing matter to you?

In many cases people are exploited in the manufacturing process. In some countries this happens more than in others. And the way these people are exploited is also different.

The question of 'country' is kind if in the background: sometimes exploitation is backed up / approved/supported by government , sometimes it's the government deliberately ignoring the issue, sometimes mafia is completely overruling the government, etc.


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Re: Does the country of manufacturing matter to you?
PianoStartsAt33 #3027125 09/20/20 10:13 AM
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All this kind of stuff is pretty nuanced, though. One may say that people get the government that they deserve. True? Perhaps in a macro sense, but I have a friend both of whose parents died in the cultural revolution. I doubt he got what he deserved.

Having hung out with people from over there, the factory workers are people like anyone else, and I would also believe the article that I read, where an iphone factory worker said something to the effect of "We put a lot of work into these phones. We hope you value them."

There's more than just the government... And even the government is not all bad. Can you imagine trying to take care of a billion people? Trying to provide for their needs forty years from now?

Two cents on a very uncomfortable topic.


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Re: Does the country of manufacturing matter to you?
Melving #3027168 09/20/20 12:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Melving
[...]I would also believe the article that I read, where an iphone factory worker said something to the effect of "We put a lot of work into these phones. We hope you value them."
IMHO that's just marketing.

I would ask that worker the value of those phones after 3+ years. The manufacturer wants you to get rid of the "obsolete" model and buy a new one. So the manufacturer makes an update of the os that makes your "old" phone slower and more sluggish than before. Other manufacturers use a different strategy: after a few years they don't update anymore the os of the "old" phone, so some new (or updated) apps just don't work anymore because they require some new software component, not present on the old os.

So, our answer to that slogan should be: "We put a lot of MONEY into these phones. We hope you support them for more than just 2-3 years".

Re: Does the country of manufacturing matter to you?
magicpiano #3027172 09/20/20 12:32 PM
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Originally Posted by magicpiano
So the manufacturer makes an update of the os that makes your "old" phone slower and more sluggish than before.
Making me very reluctant to purchase another iPhone. Lesson learned.

Re: Does the country of manufacturing matter to you?
wouter79 #3027209 09/20/20 02:48 PM
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Originally Posted by wouter79
Maybe the question would better be like

Does the way humans are treated in manufacturing matter to you?

In many cases people are exploited in the manufacturing process. In some countries this happens more than in others. And the way these people are exploited is also different.

It's not really fair to assume any equivalence in manufacturing cost when compared to degree of exploitation (also that would be exploitation by the company, not the government, though in some cases they may be one and the same).

Capitalism across the world really isn't that different. Regardless of where the country of manufacturing is, the work labor cost is going to be proportional to the skillset required along with the cost of living.

I've visited tech factories in China and Korea. I would venture to say that none of the workers feel particularly exploited. They're quality of life is certainly well above poverty level for the area. Their cleanliness and efficiency is also quite impressive.

We're not exactly talking sweat shops and undocumented labor here with pianos.

Re: Does the country of manufacturing matter to you?
Melving #3027226 09/20/20 03:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Melving
All this kind of stuff is pretty nuanced, though. One may say that people get the government that they deserve. True? Perhaps in a macro sense, but I have a friend both of whose parents died in the cultural revolution. I doubt he got what he deserved.

Having hung out with people from over there, the factory workers are people like anyone else, and I would also believe the article that I read, where an iphone factory worker said something to the effect of "We put a lot of work into these phones. We hope you value them."

There's more than just the government... And even the government is not all bad. Can you imagine trying to take care of a billion people? Trying to provide for their needs forty years from now?

Two cents on a very uncomfortable topic.

OT, but the world is far from being fair. There are three ways you can ask others to change: do nothing, punish, and encourage.

I do not want to discuss issues of China here - I am not Chinese, and form my opinion only from what I read and watch. And when, for example, I see how mainland Chinese fight with Hong Kong Chinese over who is right, I can have my own opinion, but I am not the right person to judge them. They have to resolve this, not me. This is what sovereignty mean.

If I prefer something not Chinese to Chinese - this is usually because of either higher quality, or because of some other product-related concerns (some of which can be influenced by specific actions of Chinese government or its control over Chinese businesses).

The same applies to any other country.

I try to avoid buying anything Russian, for example - any time I buy from Russian business mean that they pay more taxes to Russian government, and I do not want my money to fund the war they continue against Ukraine.


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Re: Does the country of manufacturing matter to you?
PianoStartsAt33 #3027229 09/20/20 03:29 PM
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On a similar note (and I guess this one is not deserving a ban because it's based on non-negative emotions 😉), I had moments when I wanted to purchase goods from countries I respect. And recently that has been the US. I've never been there and I don't care much about the politics of US, however for the last 7 years or so I've been working for a big American IT company and I've been more than happy, it's my perfect job and it has also provided my income which is excellent. So, usually when having a choice between multiple products, I'd try choosing an American brand or product (of course after local ones). Expectedly this is as silly as boycotting products because in the same way Chinese doesn't mean cr*p, American doesn't mean good laugh And I've had my disappointments.

In a conclusion, country of manufacturing used to matter to me for various reasons. Not anymore. I'd rather test products, read reviews and decide based on the product alone.

Last edited by CyberGene; 09/20/20 03:32 PM.

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Re: Does the country of manufacturing matter to you?
PianoStartsAt33 #3027245 09/20/20 04:17 PM
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Originally Posted by CyberGene
Expectedly this is as silly as boycotting products because in the same way Chinese doesn't mean cr*p, American doesn't mean good laugh And I've had my disappointments.

Yup, I'm fairly cynical when it comes to any notion of "good intentions" by any government, politics, or major corporations.

Here in the US, I find that we can be particularly ignorant and self righteous when viewing the world. One moment we can be joking about how North Korean propaganda depicts the US as poverty stricken, and then turn around and believe how the Chinese population is impoverished and exploited by their government.

We can have people complaining about China made products, then commenting the next moment about how you can buy everything you need from Amazon.

It's all just kind of ironic to me.

With acoustic pianos, currently, China just doesn't make anything with the same level of prestige that I would want to shop for in the future. With digital pianos, I'm not sure how much China can be avoided at a component level, but certainly there's less prestige associated with country of origin vs just the brand name prestige of tech components.

Last edited by rkzhao; 09/20/20 04:21 PM.
Re: Does the country of manufacturing matter to you?
rkzhao #3027542 09/21/20 02:21 PM
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Originally Posted by rkzhao
Originally Posted by wouter79
Maybe the question would better be like

Does the way humans are treated in manufacturing matter to you?

In many cases people are exploited in the manufacturing process. In some countries this happens more than in others. And the way these people are exploited is also different.

It's not really fair to assume any equivalence in manufacturing cost when compared to degree of exploitation (also that would be exploitation by the company, not the government, though in some cases they may be one and the same).

Capitalism across the world really isn't that different. Regardless of where the country of manufacturing is, the work labor cost is going to be proportional to the skillset required along with the cost of living.

I've visited tech factories in China and Korea. I would venture to say that none of the workers feel particularly exploited. They're quality of life is certainly well above poverty level for the area. Their cleanliness and efficiency is also quite impressive.

We're not exactly talking sweat shops and undocumented labor here with pianos.


Sure capitalism is not free from investigation.

You also have to check if the factories you check are really representative. Where are the raw materials and components coming from; how are they treated.

Another problem looming then is, suppose you would boycott the factories that exploit their workforce. Would it help the workers, or would they even get deeper in the [censored]. There may be complex relations causing the situation. It may need a well coordinated investigation and actions to fix problems.


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Re: Does the country of manufacturing matter to you?
wouter79 #3027566 09/21/20 03:26 PM
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Originally Posted by wouter79
Sure capitalism is not free from investigation.

You also have to check if the factories you check are really representative. Where are the raw materials and components coming from; how are they treated.

Another problem looming then is, suppose you would boycott the factories that exploit their workforce. Would it help the workers, or would they even get deeper in the [censored]. There may be complex relations causing the situation. It may need a well coordinated investigation and actions to fix problems.

Having seen multiple factories in different countries, I would expect what I've seen to be fairly representative of my industry and factory conditions for that pay grade of work. I would certainly think it more representative than any potential western media depictions.

As for the Piano industry, there is a much higher profit margin per item involved than electronics. There is arguably also more specialize skill involved in manufacturing and finishing of a piano when compared to the mostly automated manufacturing world of electronics. Therefore, I would expect the working conditions to be no worse if not better.

I definitely agree that boycotts really don't solve much other than perhaps for personal gratification. Well, at least if the goal beyond just making the company lose money. I'm just going to look at US corporations since that's where my own experience reside. If a company loses profits, improving working conditions is the last thing on their minds.

They might look at it superficially as part of marketing and PR, but the main focus would be to look at how to cut costs, which normally means layoffs and moving more of the workforce overseas to find cheaper labor. Factories may close altogether and leave thousands of people unemployed with no real thought to their well being.

Last edited by rkzhao; 09/21/20 03:29 PM.
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