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question on teachers
#3027139 09/20/20 10:55 AM
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Some months ago I analyzed the patterns of the different scales when playing them two octaves. What i found was that all use two different patterns: 1-2-3 and 1-2-3-4(-5).
I have never had a teacher telling me that scales use the same finger patterns but start the pattern on different notes. The analysis I did has helped me a lot. Most teachers probably just say that different scales might have different fingerings which is true but they never teach students about the simple patterns.
Do teacher forget to tell their students all the basics of playing scales or is it that I am the only one who need this analysis?
I want to find a good piano teacher who can help me go deep into the basics of playing the piano. This is why I asked this question.

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Re: question on teachers
Manne janne #3027185 09/20/20 01:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Manne janne
Some months ago I analyzed the patterns of the different scales when playing them two octaves. What i found was that all use two different patterns: 1-2-3 and 1-2-3-4(-5).
I have never had a teacher telling me that scales use the same finger patterns but start the pattern on different notes. ....
My apologies if I have misunderstood you to say they all start 123 1234 etc. but just on different notes. They use 123 and 1234(5), but they don't all start on finger 1, e.g. Bb major (and many others).


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Re: question on teachers
Manne janne #3027196 09/20/20 02:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Manne janne
Some months ago I analyzed the patterns of the different scales when playing them two octaves. What i found was that all use two different patterns: 1-2-3 and 1-2-3-4(-5).
I have never had a teacher telling me that scales use the same finger patterns but start the pattern on different notes. The analysis I did has helped me a lot. Most teachers probably just say that different scales might have different fingerings which is true but they never teach students about the simple patterns.
Do teacher forget to tell their students all the basics of playing scales or is it that I am the only one who need this analysis?
I want to find a good piano teacher who can help me go deep into the basics of playing the piano. This is why I asked this question.

There are so many things wrong with this post, I don't know where to start.

You might need to pay more $$ and find yourself a more qualified teacher who can suit your special needs.


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Re: question on teachers
Manne janne #3027237 09/20/20 03:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Manne janne
Some months ago I analyzed the patterns of the different scales when playing them two octaves. What i found was that all use two different patterns: 1-2-3 and 1-2-3-4(-5).
I have never had a teacher telling me that scales use the same finger patterns but start the pattern on different notes. The analysis I did has helped me a lot. Most teachers probably just say that different scales might have different fingerings which is true but they never teach students about the simple patterns.
Do teacher forget to tell their students all the basics of playing scales or is it that I am the only one who need this analysis?
I want to find a good piano teacher who can help me go deep into the basics of playing the piano. This is why I asked this question.

This is not correct for all keys. You definitely need a different teacher. All competent, trained teachers will indeed teach the proper fingering patterns for scales - that is a basic thing any half-decent teacher should know.

Re: question on teachers
joplinlover #3027293 09/20/20 07:27 PM
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Originally Posted by joplinlover
Originally Posted by Manne janne
Some months ago I analyzed the patterns of the different scales when playing them two octaves. What i found was that all use two different patterns: 1-2-3 and 1-2-3-4(-5).
I have never had a teacher telling me that scales use the same finger patterns but start the pattern on different notes. The analysis I did has helped me a lot. Most teachers probably just say that different scales might have different fingerings which is true but they never teach students about the simple patterns.
Do teacher forget to tell their students all the basics of playing scales or is it that I am the only one who need this analysis?
I want to find a good piano teacher who can help me go deep into the basics of playing the piano. This is why I asked this question.

This is not correct for all keys. You definitely need a different teacher. All competent, trained teachers will indeed teach the proper fingering patterns for scales - that is a basic thing any half-decent teacher should know.
It was not the teacher telling the OP that, it was the OP's conclusion.


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Re: question on teachers
Manne janne #3027303 09/20/20 08:13 PM
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Thanks Stubbie. I didn't catch that.

Re: question on teachers
Stubbie #3027305 09/20/20 08:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Stubbie
It was not the teacher telling the OP that, it was the OP's conclusion.

In my experience, these are telltale signs of a Transfer Wreck. It's actually harder to teach these students than those with absolutely no prior experience or prejudice. And sometimes it's impossible to undo the misinformation.


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Re: question on teachers
Manne janne #3027308 09/20/20 08:38 PM
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Manne
I’m not sure how you came to your fingering conclusion, but it seems you might not have looked at scales designated as xsharp or xflat. Look at the attached link and see if you see a pattern

https://wsmta.org/bmta/styled/files/piano-fingering-chart.pdf


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Re: question on teachers
Manne janne #3027351 09/21/20 03:23 AM
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So Eb does not have the 123-1234 pattern?
To me it seems like the fingerings for the right hand should be 3-1-2-3-4-1-2-3.
Here the patterns are 1-2-3-4 and 1-2-3. But you say that these two patterns do not exist the Eb major scale. Thus my fingerings must be wrong.
Did you simply missunderstood me as you could not see the patterns yourself? Not all teacher can see the fundamental patterns. Even teacher miss the fundamental patterns, I guess. Teachers are not perfect.

Last edited by Manne janne; 09/21/20 03:27 AM.
Re: question on teachers
Manne janne #3027358 09/21/20 04:08 AM
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Manne
I can see the patterns myself, but I wanted you to find it. I know how scales are constructed

Yes, your fingerings are wrong and I provided the fingerings from a teachers’ reference. I wanted you to look at why these fingerings were used. I suggest you look at a theory reference for the pattern in all scales and the theory behind different scale fingering.


"Music, rich, full of feeling, not soulless, is like a crystal on which the sun falls and brings forth from it a whole rainbow" - F. Chopin
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Re: question on teachers
dogperson #3027359 09/21/20 04:13 AM
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Originally Posted by dogperson
Manne
I can see the patterns myself, but I wanted you to find it. I know how scales are constructed

Yes, your fingerings are wrong and I provided the fingerings from a teachers’ reference. I wanted you to look at why these fingerings were used. I suggest you look at a theory reference for the pattern in all scales and the theory behind different scale fingering.
ok I was wrong. my finger for Eb scales (2 octaves ascending) are 3-1-2-3-4-1-2-3-1-2-3-4-1-2-3. This is wrong!
the pdf says 3 1 2 3 4 1 2 3 1 2 3 4 1 2 3 which is much better! I am sacrastic as the figers are exactly the same. If my fingerings are wrong then then the pdf is a bad pdf with wrong fingerings!
You really were not even trying to understand me at all. many teachers just never try to understand people at all.
Perhaps they have missunderstood the fundamentals themselves! Not even expert always know the fundamentals.

Last edited by Manne janne; 09/21/20 04:18 AM.
Re: question on teachers
Manne janne #3027360 09/21/20 04:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Manne janne
Originally Posted by dogperson
Manne
I can see the patterns myself, but I wanted you to find it. I know how scales are constructed

Yes, your fingerings are wrong and I provided the fingerings from a teachers’ reference. I wanted you to look at why these fingerings were used. I suggest you look at a theory reference for the pattern in all scales and the theory behind different scale fingering.
ok I was wrong. my finger for Eb scales (2 octaves ascending) are 3-1-2-3-4-1-2-3-1-2-3-4-1-2-3. This is wrong!
the pdf says 3 1 2 3 4 1 2 3 1 2 3 4 1 2 3 which is much better! I am sacrastic as the figers are exactly the same. If my fingerings are wrong then then the pdf is a bad pdf with wrong fingerings!
You really were not even trying to understand me at all. many teachers just never try to understand people at all.
Perhaps they have missunderstood the fundamentals themselves! Not even expert always know the fundamentals.


Save your sarcasm for someone else. I’m done.


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"I never dreamt with my own two hands I could touch the sky" - Sappho

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Re: question on teachers
Manne janne #3027380 09/21/20 07:08 AM
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But the OP is not totally wrong.

1231234 does work for major scales if and only if you start on the right finger, not necessarily 1, and avoid thumb on black keys where possible. I think that's what he/she intended.

And working this out for yourself is a good exercise.

It does sound like the teacher could have explained better.


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Re: question on teachers
TimR #3027418 09/21/20 09:13 AM
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Originally Posted by TimR
But the OP is not totally wrong.

1231234 does work for major scales if and only if you start on the right finger, not necessarily 1, and avoid thumb on black keys where possible. I think that's what he/she intended.

And working this out for yourself is a good exercise.

It does sound like the teacher could have explained better.

+1, except than you can _always_ avoid using the thumb on a black key.

When I re-started playing, I had forgotten the standard fingerings, and I had to re-learn them. My yellowed, brittle copy of Cooke's "Learning the Scales and Arpeggios" had the pattern rule that the OP worked out for himself.


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Re: question on teachers
Manne janne #3027478 09/21/20 11:20 AM
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The original post sounds like a rant about teachers and their shortcomings veiled in a question about scale fingerings. OP isn’t asking about proper scale fingering. He’s already figured that out on his own, according to his post. He’s asking for agreement that teachers have shortcomings. Why would anyone post something like that in the Teacher’s Forum but to get a (negative) reaction from members/teachers? Even the title of this thread is “question on teachers”, not “question on scale fingerings”.

Last edited by WeakLeftHand; 09/21/20 11:21 AM.

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Re: question on teachers
Manne janne #3027480 09/21/20 11:22 AM
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I never owned any book on scales & arpeggios (my teachers lent me theirs when I was doing grade exams) but once I learnt the principles, I never forgot any of them. Their notes, the fingerings.

Principally, no thumbs on black notes in scales. (Thumbs on black notes required of course in all-black-notes arpeggios wink ). All other fingers take that as the premise, and fingerings will sort themselves out.

Fingers usually know when they're required thumb wow yippie


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Re: question on teachers
TimR #3027503 09/21/20 12:45 PM
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Originally Posted by TimR
But the OP is not totally wrong.

1231234 does work for major scales if and only if you start on the right finger, not necessarily 1, and avoid thumb on black keys where possible. I think that's what he/she intended.

And working this out for yourself is a good exercise.

It does sound like the teacher could have explained better.

Tim, the OP is completely and utterly wrong. There was no mention of starting on a different finger. Thus, it would be natural to assume that whatever 1231234 is given, 1 is the first finger to be used.

Telltale signs of a Transfer Wreck.


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Re: question on teachers
AZNpiano #3027511 09/21/20 01:15 PM
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Originally Posted by AZNpiano
Tim, the OP is completely and utterly wrong. There was no mention of starting on a different finger. Thus, it would be natural to assume that whatever 1231234 is given, 1 is the first finger to be used.
The OP is not wrong, and definitely not "utterly"or "completely" wrong. What is missing, as usual, is assuming one understands what has been written, instead of asking clarifying questions, and then taking off on those assumptions. it happens often in forums. Part of the original post says:
Quote
I have never had a teacher telling me that scales use the same finger patterns but start the pattern on different notes.

You first have to ASK what is meant by "start on different notes". I don't think that there is an 8-note-in-an-octave (i.e. "standard" scale) that does not have the pattern 1-2-3-1-2-3-4-(5) in it. But the "1" might start on the 3rd, 4th, or whatever degree of the scale. In fact, anything else would be inefficient, or am I wrong?

When you say "start on a different finger" that is going from the point of view of the Tonic, and the first note. If a scale goes up 2, 3 or 4 octaves (which we can assume the OP does, otherwise the (5) would not be in the picture) the pattern is circular or repetitive anyway. What is the starting point of the circle? Thinking in terms of starting the Tonic on a different finger and then getting to that 1 later; or starting the scale on a different degree, or just looking at where the 1 starts, is the same thing, seen from a different angle.

Quote
Telltale signs of a Transfer Wreck.
Let's look at name calling. When people are labeled, the immediate effect is to tell the community that this person is not to be listened to or taken seriously because they are part of whatever group one doesn't listen to. A Wreck must be something terrible. So what "is" a TW really. It is a student who was improperly taught, and now has problems, or misconceptions, or missing information, because of it. A TW who figured out something they were not taught, which is correct ---- that is a thing to be corroborated, rather than name calling. A TW who is confused about a wrong thing that was taught, but senses something else is right, needs to get confirmation, or broughton the right track. What they don't need is a label publicly slapped on them.

If what I surmise is incorrect, please name a regular scale (i.e. not whole tone, octatonic and such) that does not have the 123 1234 pattern regularly within its repetition. I have not looked into this in depth, but did think I had learned this at some point.

Re: question on teachers
keystring #3027519 09/21/20 01:38 PM
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Originally Posted by keystring
You first have to ASK what is meant by "start on different notes".

You answered the question yourself. There's no need to defend the indefensible.


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Re: question on teachers
Manne janne #3027608 09/21/20 05:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Manne janne
Some months ago I analyzed the patterns of the different scales when playing them two octaves. What i found was that all use two different patterns: 1-2-3 and 1-2-3-4(-5).
I have never had a teacher telling me that scales use the same finger patterns but start the pattern on different notes. The analysis I did has helped me a lot. Most teachers probably just say that different scales might have different fingerings which is true but they never teach students about the simple patterns.
Do teacher forget to tell their students all the basics of playing scales or is it that I am the only one who need this analysis?
I want to find a good piano teacher who can help me go deep into the basics of playing the piano. This is why I asked this question.

1. I'm not sure that scale fingerings are considered "deep into the basics of playing the piano."
2. Fingering 3-2-1-4-3-2-1 is not the same as 1-2-3-1-2-3-4-5.
3. I have never heard of and can't imagine anyone ever suggesting scale fingerings that jumped around the fingers, like 4-2-3-2-5-3-1-3. I can't imagine a teacher having to explain why such a fingering would be awkward. 2-2-2-2-2-2-2-2 would be better and would work equally well with either hand in either direction.


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