2017 was our 20th year online!

Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 3 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Shop our online store for music lovers
SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Wessell Nickel & Gross
PianoForAll
(ad)
Best of Piano Buyer
 Best of Piano Buyer
(ad)
Faust Harrison Pianos
Faust Harrison 100+ Steinway pianos
Who's Online Now
29 members (EVC2017, dcbluepiano, Burkey, dannylux, doremi, CyberGene, ejlamas, EB5AGV, 6 invisible), 409 guests, and 446 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Page 2 of 3 1 2 3
Re: Counting 1234
Nahum #3026810 09/19/20 02:20 PM
Joined: Mar 2015
Posts: 346
S
Sebs Offline OP
Full Member
OP Offline
Full Member
S
Joined: Mar 2015
Posts: 346
Originally Posted by Nahum
Originally Posted by Sebs
I was looking for what phrases are for each note value and found this (link below) is this correct? Can you use whatever one you prefer as I see numerous charts. If you have 2 eighth notes tied I do you say "Too" or "Ti-Ti"?

Sebs, I love that you are not content with what you get on the forum, but are actively looking for additional material. And that's what the Internet is for! I have never seen a blog under your link. Its author tries to honestly state what he knows, comparing the pros and cons of each syllabic counting system. Unfortunately, he does not create a complete picture at all (just like me - this requires a group of researchers associated with different genres and with different musical cultures). But here's what's missing IMO :

1. Ancient Karnat rhythmic language Konnakol;

Bambara as a rhythmic language in West Africa;

Jazz scat of American origin with roots in bambara;

Beatbox;

Australian Dibidibi;

Diligili - rhythmic language for young children from Germany ;

There are probably more.


2. Takadimi appeared in the 90s, when it became clear to young music teachers that the independent study of pop - rock music by hook or by crook by students had taken root massively into wide musical education. There, the most important problem was ( and remained) the reading of a rhythm that was not associated with classical music no in patterns , no in in their sound . In any case, the sound of the syllabic languages ​​of the past, with the possible exception of the Gordon system, does not correspond to the percussive nature of modern music. Diligili, invented for young children by Valery Brainin, is aimed at acquaintance with classical music of the 18-19 centuries. In our discussion with him, he convinced me that in accordance with the purpose, his language is best suited. By the way: his rhythmic patterns are called dragons . For those who have not heard: Valery Brainin is one of the outstanding music educators in Europe.

Quote
It also says that many shift to using numbers to count rhythm after using this for a while, I wonder why that would be?
In the absence of strict statistics, taking into account general music education, specific jazz education, traditions of oral folklore education, this phrase cannot be taken seriously. My son uses beatbox to create his own music on his computer.

When I actively look it's not that I don't trust in the sources here, but I like to learn more and try to find answers on my own rather than always asking for help. However, this method you show me I can't find it. Do you have a chart of what phrases equal what note value? Or if you can just list them? I'd like to experiment with it. Also this is highlighting my need to work on rhythm more as I'm struggling just to play that bar and have it sound well.

(ad)
Piano & Music Accessories
piano accessories music gifts tuning and moving equipment
Re: Counting 1234
Sebs #3026815 09/19/20 02:31 PM
Joined: Mar 2015
Posts: 346
S
Sebs Offline OP
Full Member
OP Offline
Full Member
S
Joined: Mar 2015
Posts: 346
How should I tackle getting this part down? Should I break it down in smaller pieces. Such as half or a third of the bar then piece together? I was able to get the intro down which was much easier as RH always landed on note with the LH. Once I get those notes in between my hands and brain seem to quit working and then it's time for to drink a mi-mo-sa. When you have notes in RH in between notes on LH is that syncopation? Is it normal for this to be challenging?

Thank you all for the support and help.

Re: Counting 1234
Sebs #3026855 09/19/20 04:11 PM
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 5,958
C
5000 Post Club Member
Offline
5000 Post Club Member
C
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 5,958
Quote
How should I tackle getting this part down? . . .

Modified suggestion:

1. Learn the LH part (even rhythm) until you can play it eyes-closed by memory. Practice it against a metronome, to ensure that it's even.

2. Using a metronome, learn the RH part, playing _very slowly_. You can have the metronome tick at the 1/16-note level ( 1-e-and-e-2-e-and-e), so that every RH note falls on a tick), if you need that.

3. When the RH is solid, add the LH. Keep the metronome running.

4. _Gradually_ speed up both hands. At some speed, you'll want to switch the metronome to ticking on 1/8 notes (1-and-2-and), and then on 1/4 notes (1-2-3-4).

By this time, you should be _hearing_ the rhythmic interplay of the parts. keep speeding it up, gradually, until it's as fast as you want it.

The problem you'll have:

. . . You can't let yourself concentrate on just one hand!

This is a problem for all pianists, when they start. It disappears, as you gain experience, and can let one hand (or the other) go on "automatic pilot". Its muscles have enough practice to play without a lot of brain intervention.

Any of the free smartphone metronome apps (and any electronic stand-alone metronome) will let you specify a "beat", so the sound goes:

. . . ting-click-click-click ting-click-click-click

to remind you where beat 1 is.


. Charles
---------------------------
PX-350 / microKorg XL+ / Pianoteq / Lounge Lizard / EV ZXA1 speaker
Re: Counting 1234
Nahum #3026880 09/19/20 05:05 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 8,949
8000 Post Club Member
Offline
8000 Post Club Member
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 8,949
Originally Posted by Nahum
Originally Posted by AZNpiano
Some people are visual learners. Some people have to see proportions.
Musical performance is an auditory art for 100% of performers. Another thing is the transformation of notation into real sounds; there are different options: some solve problems for the moment, others - for a lifetime. For example, the introduction of the graph paper factor makes the process of reading notes heavier and prolongs, but in the end it solves a specific problem - until the next one appears.
But there is another possibility: the decomposition of the musical notation into elementary rhythmic patterns inside and around the fourth, and their verbalization through a constant combination of syllables that can be written under the notes ; with the subsequent memorization forever. This method has been used for over 4,000 years and has proven its worth. Tens of millions of Hindu musicians are not wrong!

What

did

I

just

read

???


Private Piano Teacher and MTAC Member
Re: Counting 1234
Charles Cohen #3026886 09/19/20 05:34 PM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 18,155
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 18,155
Originally Posted by Charles Cohen
Modified suggestion:

1. Learn the LH part (even rhythm) until you can play it eyes-closed by memory. ....
In general I like your ideas, and in particular I agree with doing it in stages with various strategies.

I was fooling around with it yesterday. I prefer to pull up the version of the RH I wrote out yesterday with a better distribution of the notes.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/5985r40xtuv433t/20.09.18c%20notes.jpg?dl=0

I was tapping it out and yes, I do happen to like using numbers. It's not that hard to get the RH going by itself. But the LH comes on every beat once, which is exactly when the RH has an extended note, so I guess that's syncopated. You talked of the metronome to keep it even. I think for the RH alone, I'd have the clicks go for every 16h note because for every quarter note I think it gets messy. What do you think?

I also went to tapping on the table, rather than trying to play the notes in rhythm, to make it less complex. First the RH notes by themselves, then tapping the LH on the beat. I also used a different object to tap, so I had two different sounds.

I'm thinking -- practise the notes separately so you have them down pat, without worrying about rhythm. Then when you've got the rhythm through tapping, do the same with the notes, which are now solid, with the rhythm, that you got solid by tapping. Start slowly.

Re: Counting 1234
Sebs #3026934 09/19/20 08:19 PM
Joined: Mar 2015
Posts: 346
S
Sebs Offline OP
Full Member
OP Offline
Full Member
S
Joined: Mar 2015
Posts: 346
Thanks! I need to quit thinking I can get it down in minutes. I need to be patient but also dont want to waste time and want to get better at learning and also learn methods. Might sound silly but I still need to get better at practicing. Such as, saying ok only work on first half of bar 9 for 10 min. Then work on second half and tomorrow try full bar. I get too anxious, impatient and give up with songs but then I can play technique and work on sight reading for hours...

Re: Counting 1234
Sebs #3026943 09/19/20 08:55 PM
Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 2,329
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 2,329
I second keystring's idea. Tap the bass rhythm with left and treble with right. Then silently play the measure on the table top with the intended fingering. Then try on a piano.

You'll eventually get to the point you'll just play it. In the picture above, last note with right hand, G. Left hand plays it too. Which do you use?

My first teacher had me do rhythmic exercises in the beginning, tapping left and right separately. It was helpful I think.


♯ ♮ ♭ ø ° Δ ♩ ♪ ♫ ♬
Yamaha C3X
YouTube
[Linked Image]
Re: Counting 1234
Sebs #3027020 09/20/20 05:04 AM
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 3,770
N
3000 Post Club Member
Offline
3000 Post Club Member
N
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 3,770
Originally Posted by Sebs
[. Do you have a chart of what phrases equal what note value? Or if you can just list them? I'd like to experiment with it. Also this is highlighting my need to work on rhythm more as I'm struggling just to play that bar and have it sound well.

https://yadi.sk/i/zhab86Y0G0wV4g

This is a personal interpretation. Everyone can find their own; but there are some rhythm-articulatory principles:

Since the set of syllables refers to music that is percussive in nature, preference is given to the consonants T-D, B - P.

Of the vowels, A, U, I are mainly used; sometimes for a closed sound O.

For isolated short notes, closed syllables are used: Tat, Dat, Bap, Dab, Dut, Dib, Dit, etc.

For For consecutive notes , open syllables are used: similar, but without consonants at the end: Ba ,Da, Tu ,Du etc.

In longer notes, the consonants at the end of the syllable are repeated, in accordance with the smallest rhythmic unit in the bar (but without exaggeration, like a whole note in sixteenths - Taaaa-aaaa-aaaa-aaaa ) .

On unstressed notes, Ka\Ku is used; Fa can be used on soft, unstressed notes.

Traditional classical La-La-La in this general context sounds completely foreign.

For pauses, M and N are suitable; and longer ones Mmm, Nnn.

For typical in jazz ghost notes, Ts is used : (triplet )Ta - ts- du dat- n-n.

According to these principles, everyone is looking for combinations of syllables that are convenient for pronouncing.

Axiom: The execution of the rhythm is always, consciously or unconsciously, preceded by internal verbalization - lyrics or spontaneous rhythmic language.

Errors in rhythm execution are the result of not understanding it and errors in internal verbalization. Therefore, internal verbalization must be done aloud; my students often found mistakes themselves, after pronouncing the rhythm out loud .

Re: Counting 1234
Sebs #3027026 09/20/20 05:32 AM
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 3,770
N
3000 Post Club Member
Offline
3000 Post Club Member
N
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 3,770
Originally Posted by Sebs
. Such as, saying ok only work on first half of bar 9 for 10 min. Then work on second half and tomorrow try full bar.

Why 10 minutes? Write the appropriate syllables over the notes and start working on the pronunciation штышву every quarter: after four or five repetitions, you will already know; and then move on. However, I recommend the following: since rhythms are made up of patterns, and these patterns will inevitably repeat themselves in the song (this must be sought, discovered, and noted); it is worth writing them separately together with the syllables, and even numbering them.
Quote
[/I get too anxious, impatient and give up with songs but then I can play technique and work on sight reading for hours...

This is really a problem, but its solution: love the rhythm, cherish the rhythm, treat it with great respect, enjoy it - and then no drugs are needed! Don't be like many classical musicians for whom "phrasing" stands high above rhythm.

Last edited by Nahum; 09/20/20 05:34 AM.
Re: Counting 1234
Nahum #3027290 09/20/20 07:18 PM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 18,155
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 18,155
Originally Posted by Nahum
... start working on the pronunciation штышву ...
I don't think too many people can read Cyrrilic. Shtishvoo?

Re: Counting 1234
keystring #3027325 09/20/20 11:33 PM
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 5,958
C
5000 Post Club Member
Offline
5000 Post Club Member
C
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 5,958
Originally Posted by keystring
Originally Posted by Charles Cohen
Modified suggestion:

1. Learn the LH part (even rhythm) until you can play it eyes-closed by memory. ....
In general I like your ideas, and in particular I agree with doing it in stages with various strategies.

I was fooling around with it yesterday. I prefer to pull up the version of the RH I wrote out yesterday with a better distribution of the notes.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/5985r40xtuv433t/20.09.18c%20notes.jpg?dl=0

I was tapping it out and yes, I do happen to like using numbers. It's not that hard to get the RH going by itself. But the LH comes on every beat once, which is exactly when the RH has an extended note, so I guess that's syncopated. You talked of the metronome to keep it even. I think for the RH alone, I'd have the clicks go for every 16h note because for every quarter note I think it gets messy. What do you think?

Yes, that's _exactly_ the way to write it, so you can see how the two parts coordinate. The original notation was confusing (especially for beginners).

. . . Nahum may disagree.

I have a "visual style" for learning -- seeing things laid out like that, helps me with troublesome passages.

If you need a tick every 1/16 note, then set the metronome up that way. Don't speed it up, until you're solid -- and then, speed it up gradually.

. . . This isn't a ten-minute job to learn, if you've never played it before.

Quote
I also went to tapping on the table, rather than trying to play the notes in rhythm, to make it less complex. First the RH notes by themselves, then tapping the LH on the beat. I also used a different object to tap, so I had two different sounds.[/'quote]

That's a reasonable thing to do. I'd use drums, rather than tapping on the table -- but if you don't have two drums (low and high pitch), tapping will do.

[quote]I'm thinking -- practise the notes separately so you have them down pat, without worrying about rhythm. Then when you've got the rhythm through tapping, do the same with the notes, which are now solid, with the rhythm, that you got solid by tapping. Start slowly.

My gut says that practicing the notes, "without worrying about the rhythm", isn't going to help you much. IMHO, it's better to learn and practice the rhythm first. But I don't teach, and your way might be worth trying.


. Charles
---------------------------
PX-350 / microKorg XL+ / Pianoteq / Lounge Lizard / EV ZXA1 speaker
Re: Counting 1234
keystring #3027326 09/21/20 12:11 AM
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 3,770
N
3000 Post Club Member
Offline
3000 Post Club Member
N
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 3,770
Originally Posted by keystring
Originally Posted by Nahum
... start working on the pronunciation штышву ...
I don't think too many people can read Cyrrilic. Shtishvoo?

Well coded inside)).

Last edited by Nahum; 09/21/20 12:12 AM.
Re: Counting 1234
Charles Cohen #3027334 09/21/20 01:03 AM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 18,155
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 18,155
Originally Posted by Charles Cohen
My gut says that practicing the notes, "without worrying about the rhythm", isn't going to help you much. IMHO, it's better to learn and practice the rhythm first. But I don't teach, and your way might be worth trying.
I had no order to this, whether to tap first, or learn the notes first. Simply that if two things are both difficult (if you're in early stages, for example), then getting a good handle on one, then the other, is one strategy. Trying to learn the notes as well as the rhythm at the same time may be too hard. I learned this as "layering".

Re: Counting 1234
Nahum #3027335 09/21/20 01:07 AM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 18,155
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 18,155
Originally Posted by Nahum
Originally Posted by keystring
Originally Posted by Nahum
... start working on the pronunciation штышву ...
I don't think too many people can read Cyrillic. Shtishvoo?

Well coded inside)).

Sorry, I don't understand what you're saying with "coded inside".

You had written to work on the pronunciation, and then a word in Cyrillic which is pronounced "shtishvoo" - so are you saying to learn to pronounced those two syllables "shtishvoo" - or does the Russian word mean something about pronouncing? What are you saying with this?

Re: Counting 1234
keystring #3027336 09/21/20 01:22 AM
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 3,770
N
3000 Post Club Member
Offline
3000 Post Club Member
N
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 3,770
Originally Posted by keystring
Originally Posted by Nahum
Originally Posted by keystring
Originally Posted by Nahum
... start working on the pronunciation штышву ...
I don't think too many people can read Cyrillic. Shtishvoo?

Well coded inside)).

Sorry, I don't understand what you're saying with "coded inside".
Full phrase : Write the appropriate syllables over the notes and start working on the pronunciation INSIDE every quarter
.This happens when I forget to switch my keyboard from one language to another.
Memory problem.

Re: Counting 1234
Sebs #3027346 09/21/20 02:44 AM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 18,155
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 18,155
Now I understand. Thank you. I thought you were perhaps compatriots. It happens often in the linguist forum I frequent professionally, where colleagues will suddenly slip in another language in the middle if two of them speak the same language.

Re: Counting 1234
Charles Cohen #3027352 09/21/20 03:25 AM
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 3,770
N
3000 Post Club Member
Offline
3000 Post Club Member
N
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 3,770
Originally Posted by Charles Cohen
Yes, that's _exactly_ the way to write it, so you can see how the two parts coordinate. The original notation was confusing (especially for beginners).

. . . Nahum may disagree.

I have a "visual style" for learning -- seeing things laid out like that, helps me with troublesome passages.


We are talking about two issues : 1. the problem of rhythm recognition in RH and 2. the problem of rhythm coordination between hands (the rhythm problem in LH does not exist in this example). I focused on the first problem. The second problem has several solutions, and for them graph paper is also superfluous.
1. The classic approach is to play each hand individually and then together - slowly at first and gradually accelerating.

2. Draw really straight lines (not like mine) between the RH and LH graphics.

[Linked Image]

It is incomparably more difficult for reading part of Richard Tee. Such things are best taught by ear - like RT himself , although he read sheet music and was a studio musician. .

3.The African percussionist approach : to turn both hand parts into percussion parts, and play together, referring to the SOUND of polyrhythmy and hand relationship. To do this, it is advisable to prepare the music text in an appropriate way, since there are program note editors.

[Linked Image]

Last edited by Nahum; 09/21/20 03:30 AM.
Re: Counting 1234
Sebs #3027362 09/21/20 04:45 AM
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 3,770
N
3000 Post Club Member
Offline
3000 Post Club Member
N
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 3,770
I forgot to add another method related to muscle memory: to play the left hand for a very long time till such a degree of automation that the RH hand don't affect the left .

Re: Counting 1234
Sebs #3027390 09/21/20 07:58 AM
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 459
G
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
G
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 459
*Not a music teacher. *

I’ve found 1234, 1e + a 2 e, and Kodaly Rhythm syllables all helpful for rhythms.

The number systems help to figure out rhythms, but the Kodaly syllables help to feel the rhythm and are easier to verbalize, especially in faster tempos.

Kodaly syllables are related to the Takadimi system, but are simpler, in my opinion. See

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vc2RlRvYCcY

for a basic, accessible introduction.

Keep counting but learn another or two systems.There’s no need to be doctrinaire or exclusive. Use the one(s) that help most in different stages of learning. I also sing my rhythms.

The different systems support each other.

Musical U also provides good on Kodaly syllables.


[Linked Image] [Linked Image]

Hailun HG 178, Charles Walter 1500, Kawai CA63
Re: Counting 1234
Sebs #3027443 09/21/20 10:33 AM
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 3,770
N
3000 Post Club Member
Offline
3000 Post Club Member
N
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 3,770
Originally Posted by gingko2
*

Keep counting but learn another or two systems.There’s no need to be doctrinaire or exclusive. Use the one(s) that help most in different stages of learning. s.

I agree with you, just need to add: that help most better and faster in different stages of learning . And this can only be determined by a teacher who compares the effectiveness of different methods.

Quote
Kodaly syllables are related to the Takadimi system, but are simpler, in my opinion
Take a look at the whole panorama:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counting_(music)#Kod%C3%A1ly_Method

I use a cross between Tikitiki and Gordon, aimed at jazz and pop.

Here's a rhythmic exercise on melodica, learned only by pronunciation :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KcFDyHKVt2s&list=UU6fqDmZ4pyKBMwRtE4VUMvw&index=54


http://discoremoto.cheapnet.it/amssnc/CANTO_SKAT/Scat!%20-%20Bob%20Stoloff.pdf

P.16

Last edited by Nahum; 09/21/20 10:36 AM.
Page 2 of 3 1 2 3

Moderated by  BB Player 

Link Copied to Clipboard
(ad)
Pianoteq
Steinway Spiro Layering
(ad)
PianoDisc

PianoDisc
(ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad)
Mason & Hamlin Pianos
(ad) SWEETWATER Cyber Sale
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Schiff talked about Bartók's style of playing
by symphonicdance - 12/04/20 01:46 AM
The most beautiful tunes of all time
by chopinetto - 12/03/20 09:41 PM
What are the signs of worn-out strings?
by edferris - 12/03/20 09:23 PM
Download Sheet Music
Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads
Forum Statistics
Forums41
Topics203,251
Posts3,030,334
Members99,467
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Please Support Our Advertisers


Faust Harrison 100+ Steinways

Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver

 Best of Piano Buyer

PianoTeq Bechstein
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads



 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter |


copyright 1997 - 2020 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.4