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Re: Modeling vs Sampling
EPW #3026746 09/19/20 10:59 AM
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Originally Posted by EPW
[/quote]

Or you could record yourself using Pianoteq because of the better playability and then render it out in a different VST of your liking. I there are hardly any limits in the digital world I guess.

Some have luck with that approach and some not. But you are right in the digital world there are quite a lot of different approaches to get the job done. I just don't like the fighting that you have to be in one camp or the other. I use what works for me at the time. After all the software is just a tool to help get the job done IMO.[/quote]

Maybe that’s the biggest thing about this. Software and digitals are tools. They can be great, but I’m not really emotionally attached. Acoustic pianos feel like they are a lot more then that. They are almost like a human being that is part of the family. At least that’s how it feels to me.

I’m quite fond of my digital piano, but I doubt I will ever have the same connection as to the two grands of my parents. (Could be just nostalgia talking, but the piano players I know feel the same)

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Re: Modeling vs Sampling
Vikendios #3026750 09/19/20 11:07 AM
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Network upgrades will permit us access to massive centralised processing with very low latency in the coming years, beginning in the biggest cities. This could provide a big catalyst to modeled VIs. Processing costs and better physical models will be challenges.

There are gaming platforms that use this now but the infrastructure is not quite there so glitchy and laggy (and silly terms like Google's "negative latency" are hurting the cause).

Re: Modeling vs Sampling
newer player #3026771 09/19/20 12:11 PM
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Originally Posted by newer player
(and silly terms like Google's "negative latency" are hurting the cause).

It's not so silly. All you need is a *tiny* bit of time travel to accomplish this.


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50, Kawai MP11 || Kawai NV-10
Re: Modeling vs Sampling
Gombessa #3026774 09/19/20 12:25 PM
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"negative latency" is marketing wankery imho. Possibilities of science aside.

Re: Modeling vs Sampling
newer player #3026777 09/19/20 12:33 PM
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Originally Posted by newer player
"negative latency" is marketing wankery imho. Possibilities of science aside.

Lol I was just joking if it wasn't clear. "Negative latency" is a silly term to promote.


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50, Kawai MP11 || Kawai NV-10
Re: Modeling vs Sampling
Vikendios #3026779 09/19/20 12:37 PM
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Sorry that joke flew over my head! I'll say that is language barrier on my part.

Re: Modeling vs Sampling
nicknameTaken #3026782 09/19/20 12:49 PM
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Originally Posted by peterws
You can de-metalicise it you know . . . .

At the risk of advertising that I did not RTFM (really, RTFForum), can you point me in the way of some tips for this? I really want to like Pianoteq, but the metallic sound draws me away. The idea of responsiveness and "now" simulation is appealing.

Originally Posted by MacMacMac
Does a photo of a pizza taste as good as a pizza?

I think a more accurate comparison would be a frozen pizza, a delivered pizza, and one I made myself at home.
They all have their use cases, tastes, 'health' profiles, and budgets (in terms of both dollars and time).

I myself am guilty of overindulgence in any case, even as my use case has changed over the years. smile

Originally Posted by nicknameTaken
Not sure why we discuss such controversial topics over and over.

Indeed, sir. Indeed.


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Re: Modeling vs Sampling
Vikendios #3026786 09/19/20 01:12 PM
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Thanks Kimby now you made me hungry for a pizza. A homemade pizza. So what time is dinner?
I can bring a nice salad smile

I like the idea of negative latency. Will that fix my mistakes before I make them?


All these years playing and I still consider myself a novice.
Re: Modeling vs Sampling
Vikendios #3026788 09/19/20 01:15 PM
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For what it's worth, ill add my 2 cents.

I think in the current state of both technology's modelling isn't anywhere close to sampling, and I don't see this changing anytime soon. Of course modelling has great potential, but progress is very slow.

Personally a sound like pianoteq takes the joy out of playing for me, even if the playability is great. But I think it's great that it has many fans, this way the program can evolve.

Isn't it about time for something like audio machine learning? Say an AI capable computer listens to a piano, and then creates the modelled piano by itself, to make it sound like the original. That would possibly be the end of sampling. smile

Re: Modeling vs Sampling
Gombessa #3026812 09/19/20 02:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Gombessa
Originally Posted by newer player
(and silly terms like Google's "negative latency" are hurting the cause).

It's not so silly. All you need is a *tiny* bit of time travel to accomplish this.

I think that the day https://www.bestservice.fr/try-sound.html will be playable, I will trust negative latency. wink


Yamaha CLP150, Bechstein Digital Grand, Garritan CFX, Ivory II pianos, Galaxy pianos, EWQL Pianos, Native-Instrument The Definitive Piano Collection, Soniccouture Hammersmith, Truekeys, Pianoteq
Re: Modeling vs Sampling
Vikendios #3026818 09/19/20 02:43 PM
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Have I got this right?

Modelled Dp - A 'real' instrument in its own right... it effectively creates (synthesises) its own sound (whether we like the sound or not is another matter). Akin to older e-pianos but the technology wasn't available to synthesise something more convincing (yet those sounds are now deemed as classic sounds... and bundled as samples or 'recordings' on modelled DPs). So we've gone full circle here... then:

Sampled DP - Plays a recording of a 'real' instrument. Whether it's a real piano... or e-piano sounds of old.

(Yes, it's an over-simplification because sampled DPs can apply some synthesis to sampled sounds for resonance etc).

Seems to me that they're both in bed with each other!


Learning to play. Consciously incompetent, which apparently is a good starting point. smirk
Re: Modeling vs Sampling
Vikendios #3026822 09/19/20 02:52 PM
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Quote
Seems to me that they're both in bed with each other!

Okay I have to ask, who is on top blush

I'll get my coat eek


All these years playing and I still consider myself a novice.
Re: Modeling vs Sampling
EPW #3026823 09/19/20 02:53 PM
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Originally Posted by EPW
Quote
Seems to me that they're both in bed with each other!

Okay I have to ask, who is on top blush

I'll get my coat eek

🤣

It's just plain incest... but if it weren't for the parents (the real instruments), sampled would just have nothing to sample in the first place. 🤓

Last edited by OscarRamsey; 09/19/20 02:59 PM.

Learning to play. Consciously incompetent, which apparently is a good starting point. smirk
Re: Modeling vs Sampling
Vikendios #3026824 09/19/20 02:57 PM
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@OscarRamsey : At the time of E-piano, the purpose was to provide a compact replacement of a piano and the e-piano was the best thing we could do.

Nowadays, we have the choice : two approches designed to imitate the piano. But when Pianoteq proposes a Petrof piano, it is expected we have something which imitates well an acoustic Petrof Piano and not an « instrument of its own right »

But I have to admit Roland’s piano doesn’t pretend to imitate a Steinway, Bösendorfer or what ever else. Even more, some V-Piano proposed silver strings which hasn’t been used on an acoustic piano !

Last edited by Frédéric L; 09/19/20 02:59 PM.

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Re: Modeling vs Sampling
Vikendios #3026826 09/19/20 03:02 PM
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I think when Pianoteq came out with version 6 and especially the C. Bechstein Digital Grand it really had me go wow getting closer and closer to what I want it to be. Maybe Pianoteq won't make it there in version 7 but I'm thinking it will be another tick in the right direction. So for me I keep supporting them as I like the modeling approach. We should all be happy we have the choices to choose what works for our needs.


All these years playing and I still consider myself a novice.
Re: Modeling vs Sampling
Vikendios #3026836 09/19/20 03:23 PM
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On the vane of Roland, why don't they come out with a software version of their modeled piano?


All these years playing and I still consider myself a novice.
Re: Modeling vs Sampling
Frédéric L #3026839 09/19/20 03:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Frédéric L
@OscarRamsey : At the time of E-piano, the purpose was to provide a compact replacement of a piano and the e-piano was the best thing we could do.

I do love it. The gift of desperation inspiring creative solutions.

Instead of ditching pianos/pianists, the solution created a whole new type of instrument and player.

Music of that era would have been rather different without it.

A super invention which is constantly evolving. 👍

Originally Posted by EPW
On the vane of Roland, why don't they come out with a software version of their modeled piano?

Yes...or even a midi-box for a plug-in solution (if they're worried about piracy).

Last edited by OscarRamsey; 09/19/20 03:37 PM.

Learning to play. Consciously incompetent, which apparently is a good starting point. smirk
Re: Modeling vs Sampling
Frédéric L #3026870 09/19/20 04:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Frédéric L
@OscarRamsey : At the time of E-piano, the purpose was to provide a compact replacement of a piano and the e-piano was the best thing we could do.
The electric piano was the logical followup to the electric guitar. Which wasn't intended to replace the acoustic guitar, just allow better amplification of a rather quiet instrument. The latter was never a problem with concert grand pianos with their huge sound boards, instead they created a logistics problem.

Both didn't sound quite like their acoustic counterparts and evolved into their own instrument category.

Quote
Nowadays, we have the choice : two approches designed to imitate the piano. But when Pianoteq proposes a Petrof piano, it is expected we have something which imitates well an acoustic Petrof Piano and not an « instrument of its own right »
Pianoteq is very well an instrument of its own right - when it imitates harpsichords...


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Re: Modeling vs Sampling
JoeT #3026882 09/19/20 05:12 PM
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Originally Posted by JoeT
Within the constraints of consumer (and professional) products, there is nothing that surpassed wave memory synthesis based on sample recordings so far.

The only thing "pure physical modeling" had going was memory constraints of past wave memory synthesis technologies, but memory became cheap and plenty now, so that issue is a thing of the past now. Even flash memory became so cheap now, that people store hundreds of gigabytes of VSTi libraries on it.

For leading manufacturers of synthesizer hardware sample transformation is on par with "pure physical modeling", as they obviously employ modeling algorithms as well. (VSTi sample libraries are behind there, but they don't represent the state of the art. Just as Pianoteq doesn't represent the state of the art of "pure physical modeling".)

There is no way that samples can sound the same as virtual analog or an actual FM synthesis. This is only applicable to acoustic instruments and emulation always sounds better than look up tables.

There are two things here:

1- Simulation: Simulation is reproducing the sound of an acoustic instrument using mathematical models of the acoustic instrument
2- Emulation: Mimicing the sound of an acoustic instrument using a combination of synthesis mothods. VSTs and almost any decent and modern sounding digital instrument uses this method to mimic the sound of acoustic instruments.

Using sample based synthesis to reproduce synth sounds is indeed very stupid and will always sound bad. Also, sample based synthesis has its own drawbacks: smooth portamento is impossible in pure sample playback. Ptich shifting cannot sound natural and more...


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Re: Modeling vs Sampling
EPW #3026884 09/19/20 05:22 PM
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I'm beginning to think that Pete14 has taken on a protégé. smile
Originally Posted by EPW
Thanks Kimby now you made me hungry for a pizza. A homemade pizza. So what time is dinner?
I can bring a nice salad smile

I like the idea of negative latency. Will that fix my mistakes before I make them?

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