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Counting 1234
#3026207 09/18/20 12:56 AM
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Is this a good way to count for this? It's in 4/4

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Re: Counting 1234
Sebs #3026214 09/18/20 01:25 AM
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typical way would be 1-E-and-Ah-2-E-and-Ah-3-E-and-Ah-4-E-and-Ah

I sometimes count 1-2-3-4-2-2-3-4-3-2-3-4-4-2-3-4 but it can be easier to get lost.

Re: Counting 1234
Sebs #3026218 09/18/20 02:29 AM
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1234 - in this case, useless counting: you do not need so much to know the ratio of notes and beats in a measure, but the ratio of note durations to each other. For this, the rhythmic language Takadimi is used (the rhythmic unit is sixteenth):

|| Taaa -tu'u- ka-taa'a - ka- taa ' n-n-n-n ||

Commas separate quarters from each other ; and in order not to count them, you can use a talking metronome:

http://www.metronomebot.com/talking-metronome-in-four.html

Re: Counting 1234
Sebs #3026220 09/18/20 02:44 AM
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Yes, the 1-2-3-4 system works perfectly fine.

However, the rhythm of the piano part is actually very simple because the L.H. is subdividing the beats for you. All you need to do is to keep a steady L.H. beat (in 8th notes) and vertically align the R.H. notes to the L.H. beats. You can even draw the line from the R.H. notes to where they meet the L.H. notes, or wedge right in the middle of two L.H. notes. That way, no counting is necessary.


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Re: Counting 1234
Sebs #3026245 09/18/20 04:26 AM
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Sebs, you did that correctly. I think that 1-E-and-Ah-2-E-and-Ah is not a very fluent and easy way to count. I count in Dutch e-ne-ma-le which also works fine when it is done a bit fast. You can use any word that suits you, for instance pea-nut-but-ter. For triplets I use mi-mo-sa. cool


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Re: Counting 1234
Animisha #3026355 09/18/20 11:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Nahum
1234 - in this case, useless counting: you do not need so much to know the ratio of notes and beats in a measure, but the ratio of note durations to each other. For this, the rhythmic language Takadimi is used (the rhythmic unit is sixteenth):

|| Taaa -tu'u- ka-taa'a - ka- taa ' n-n-n-n ||

Commas separate quarters from each other ; and in order not to count them, you can use a talking metronome:

http://www.metronomebot.com/talking-metronome-in-four.html

I have never heard or seen this and I must say it looks very confusing.


Originally Posted by AZNpiano
Yes, the 1-2-3-4 system works perfectly fine.

However, the rhythm of the piano part is actually very simple because the L.H. is subdividing the beats for you. All you need to do is to keep a steady L.H. beat (in 8th notes) and vertically align the R.H. notes to the L.H. beats. You can even draw the line from the R.H. notes to where they meet the L.H. notes, or wedge right in the middle of two L.H. notes. That way, no counting is necessary.

I like this idea and will try this. Are notes always spaces proportionally based on value and time signature? Such as if the "C" in right hand is directly in lined with the C-E in LH you can assume it's always on the same beat.
Originally Posted by rkzhao
typical way would be 1-E-and-Ah-2-E-and-Ah-3-E-and-Ah-4-E-and-Ah

I sometimes count 1-2-3-4-2-2-3-4-3-2-3-4-4-2-3-4 but it can be easier to get lost.

I knew that was a traditional way but for some reason I just don't like it. I prefer to avoid the "E-and-ah" I find my brain resonates with a 1,2,3,4 better. Such as a queue for me LH play on "3" then RH comes in at "4".


Originally Posted by Animisha
Sebs, you did that correctly. I think that 1-E-and-Ah-2-E-and-Ah is not a very fluent and easy way to count. I count in Dutch e-ne-ma-le which also works fine when it is done a bit fast. You can use any word that suits you, for instance pea-nut-but-ter. For triplets I use mi-mo-sa. cool

You had me at mi-mo-sa! lol sold.

Re: Counting 1234
Sebs #3026362 09/18/20 12:10 PM
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Are notes always spaces proportionally based on value and time signature?

No. It depends on the score/music and also on the actual layout/format of the score you happen to be using.

In the case of the music you've shared here, the LH happens to be all 8th notes and as AZNPiano said, that makes it very easy to play this piece without actually counting. But many pieces are not like that at all, and do require counting (at least initially).

Before so many scores were produced digitally, move of the time sheet music would be laid out (notes lined up between LH and RH) to facilitate really seeing those connections. But if one hand has a lot of notes per measure it sometimes doesn't work that way. And also, for digitally produced scores (and esp. scores produced by amateurs like you find on MuseScore), sometimes the layout is preset (like if you're using a free notation software) and it's hard to get everything to line up well.

So counting it out initially is helpful, and then, also as AZNPiano suggested, don't hesitate to draw lines between the upper staff and the lower staff to give you some visual cues.


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Re: Counting 1234
Sebs #3026364 09/18/20 12:11 PM
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Originally Posted by AZNpiano
Yes, the 1-2-3-4 system works perfectly fine.

However, the rhythm of the piano part is actually very simple because the L.H. is subdividing the beats for you. All you need to do is to keep a steady L.H. beat (in 8th notes) and vertically align the R.H. notes to the L.H. beats. You can even draw the line from the R.H. notes to where they meet the L.H. notes, or wedge right in the middle of two L.H. notes. That way, no counting is necessary.

+1.

Graph paper (if you can find such a thing -- if not, print some out) is a appropriate tool, if you need it.

The key is _keeping a steady LH beat_. Start playing _really_ slowly, and get a feel for where the RH notes fit, in that steady pulse.


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Re: Counting 1234
Sebs #3026365 09/18/20 12:13 PM
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Originally Posted by AZNpiano
Yes, the 1-2-3-4 system works perfectly fine.

However, the rhythm of the piano part is actually very simple because the L.H. is subdividing the beats for you. All you need to do is to keep a steady L.H. beat (in 8th notes) and vertically align the R.H. notes to the L.H. beats. You can even draw the line from the R.H. notes to where they meet the L.H. notes, or wedge right in the middle of two L.H. notes. That way, no counting is necessary.

+1.

Graph paper (if you can find such a thing -- if not, print some out) is a appropriate tool, if you need it.

The key is _keeping a steady LH beat_. Start playing _really_ slowly, and get a feel for where the RH notes fit, in that steady pulse.


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Re: Counting 1234
Charles Cohen #3026370 09/18/20 12:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Charles Cohen
Originally Posted by AZNpiano
Yes, the 1-2-3-4 system works perfectly fine.

However, the rhythm of the piano part is actually very simple because the L.H. is subdividing the beats for you. All you need to do is to keep a steady L.H. beat (in 8th notes) and vertically align the R.H. notes to the L.H. beats. You can even draw the line from the R.H. notes to where they meet the L.H. notes, or wedge right in the middle of two L.H. notes. That way, no counting is necessary.

+1.

Graph paper (if you can find such a thing -- if not, print some out) is a appropriate tool, if you need it.

The key is _keeping a steady LH beat_. Start playing _really_ slowly, and get a feel for where the RH notes fit, in that steady pulse.

I’ve always just drawn a vertical line on the actual score that links the notes that are played together. In addition. If a note in one clef is played between two notes in the other clef, I have occasionally drawn a vertical line to between the two notes

I’ve never needed graph paper.


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Re: Counting 1234
Sebs #3026528 09/18/20 07:13 PM
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Thanks, all! This so helpful and a lot of great tips. Also happy to hear that using 1234 is acceptable.

Re: Counting 1234
Sebs #3026531 09/18/20 07:31 PM
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. . .
I like this idea and will try this. Are notes always spaces proportionally based on value and time signature? Such as if the "C" in right hand is directly in lined with the C-E in LH you can assume it's always on the same beat.

That's _usually_ true.

If you want to see the notes represented, so that each note-image has a length on the page, that corresponds to its length in time:

That's where graph paper comes in handy -- each square horizontally represents (for example) a 1/16 note:

. . . a quarter-note occupies 4 squares horizontally;

. . . an eighth-note occupies 2 squares horizontally,


Score-writers like to make efficient use of the space on the page. If a 4/4 measure has only quarter notes, they will be written fairly close together.

If a 4/4 measure has only 1/16 notes, they will each occupy (on the page) a length convenient for _reading_ them. So that measure will be longer (on the page) that the measure with only 1/4 notes:

. . . but each measure takes _the same time to play_.

I hope this isn't even more confusing that the preceeding discussion!

Last edited by Charles Cohen; 09/18/20 07:33 PM.

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Re: Counting 1234
Sebs #3026558 09/18/20 09:40 PM
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I never tried graph paper. I see what you mean.

This rhythm looks simple but I struggle to make it sound musical. Do I need to work half of the bar at first?

Re: Counting 1234
Sebs #3026560 09/18/20 10:12 PM
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The spacing of the notes is wonky, which also makes it harder to feel the proportional length of the notes. It would be better like this:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/5985r40xtuv433t/20.09.18c%20notes.jpg?dl=0

Re: Counting 1234
Sebs #3026584 09/19/20 01:26 AM
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Atomize music into millimeters? This is crazy !

Re: Counting 1234
Nahum #3026591 09/19/20 02:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Nahum
Atomize music into millimeters? This is crazy !

Some people are visual learners. Some people have to see proportions.

Songbooks are notoriously awful for shrinking and expanding the distance between notes, so that they can squeeze in song lyrics, matching syllables with notes. The little snippet provided by the OP is just that: Look at how uneven the L.H. 8th notes are spaced apart.


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Re: Counting 1234
Sebs #3026624 09/19/20 05:07 AM
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Originally Posted by AZNpiano
Some people are visual learners. Some people have to see proportions.
Musical performance is an auditory art for 100% of performers. Another thing is the transformation of notation into real sounds; there are different options: some solve problems for the moment, others - for a lifetime. For example, the introduction of the graph paper factor makes the process of reading notes heavier and prolongs, but in the end it solves a specific problem - until the next one appears.
But there is another possibility: the decomposition of the musical notation into elementary rhythmic patterns inside and around the fourth, and their verbalization through a constant combination of syllables that can be written under the notes ; with the subsequent memorization forever. This method has been used for over 4,000 years and has proven its worth. Tens of millions of Hindu musicians are not wrong!

Last edited by Nahum; 09/19/20 05:07 AM.
Re: Counting 1234
Sebs #3026660 09/19/20 07:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Sebs
I have never heard or seen this
You must say thanks to Eurocentric method of reading the rhythm.


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I must say it looks very confusing.
This is not how it looks like, but how it sounds. I would say quite the opposite: there is no connection between the sound of the melodic rhythm and the sound of "1-E-and-Ah-2-E-and-Ah-3-E-and-Ah-4-E-and-Ah". At the same time, the verbalization "Taaa -tu '(u)" instantly reflects the rhythm of the first fourth. It remains to repeat this pattern several times until it is memorized, and then move on to pronouncing the next pattern in the second quarter, including syncopation, and also turn it into a riff. After that, connect the pronunciation of both patterns in a chain; and when it starts to work, you can add a playing simultaneously.

Re: Counting 1234
Nahum #3026685 09/19/20 09:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Nahum
Originally Posted by AZNpiano
Some people are visual learners. Some people have to see proportions.
Musical performance is an auditory art for 100% of performers. Another thing is the transformation of notation into real sounds; there are different options: some solve problems for the moment, others - for a lifetime. For example, the introduction of the graph paper factor makes the process of reading notes heavier and prolongs, but in the end it solves a specific problem - until the next one appears.
But there is another possibility: the decomposition of the musical notation into elementary rhythmic patterns inside and around the fourth, and their verbalization through a constant combination of syllables that can be written under the notes ; with the subsequent memorization forever. This method has been used for over 4,000 years and has proven its worth. Tens of millions of Hindu musicians are not wrong!

I was looking for what phrases are for each note value and found this (link below) is this correct? Can you use whatever one you prefer as I see numerous charts. If you have 2 eighth notes tied I do you say "Too" or "Ti-Ti"? It also says that many shift to using numbers to count rhythm after using this for a while, I wonder why that would be?

https://makemomentsmatter.org/classroom-ideas/rhythm-syllable-systems-what-to-use-and-why/#:~:text=Every%20quarter%20note%20is%20called,and%20flowed%20better%20with%20the

Last edited by Sebs; 09/19/20 09:24 AM.
Re: Counting 1234
Sebs #3026756 09/19/20 12:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Sebs
I was looking for what phrases are for each note value and found this (link below) is this correct? Can you use whatever one you prefer as I see numerous charts. If you have 2 eighth notes tied I do you say "Too" or "Ti-Ti"?

Sebs, I love that you are not content with what you get on the forum, but are actively looking for additional material. And that's what the Internet is for! I have never seen a blog under your link. Its author tries to honestly state what he knows, comparing the pros and cons of each syllabic counting system. Unfortunately, he does not create a complete picture at all (just like me - this requires a group of researchers associated with different genres and with different musical cultures). But here's what's missing IMO :

1. Ancient Karnat rhythmic language Konnakol;

Bambara as a rhythmic language in West Africa;

Jazz scat of American origin with roots in bambara;

Beatbox;

Australian Dibidibi;

Diligili - rhythmic language for young children from Germany ;

There are probably more.


2. Takadimi appeared in the 90s, when it became clear to young music teachers that the independent study of pop - rock music by hook or by crook by students had taken root massively into wide musical education. There, the most important problem was ( and remained) the reading of a rhythm that was not associated with classical music no in patterns , no in in their sound . In any case, the sound of the syllabic languages ​​of the past, with the possible exception of the Gordon system, does not correspond to the percussive nature of modern music. Diligili, invented for young children by Valery Brainin, is aimed at acquaintance with classical music of the 18-19 centuries. In our discussion with him, he convinced me that in accordance with the purpose, his language is best suited. By the way: his rhythmic patterns are called dragons . For those who have not heard: Valery Brainin is one of the outstanding music educators in Europe.

Quote
It also says that many shift to using numbers to count rhythm after using this for a while, I wonder why that would be?
In the absence of strict statistics, taking into account general music education, specific jazz education, traditions of oral folklore education, this phrase cannot be taken seriously. My son uses beatbox to create his own music on his computer.

Last edited by Nahum; 09/19/20 12:31 PM.
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