2017 was our 20th year online!

Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 3 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Shop our online store for music lovers
SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Wessell Nickel & Gross
PianoForAll
(ad)
Best of Piano Buyer
 Best of Piano Buyer
(ad)
Faust Harrison Pianos
Faust Harrison 100+ Steinway pianos
Who's Online Now
40 members (chopinetto, CyberGene, clothearednincompo, Frédéric L, Beowulf, 11 invisible), 417 guests, and 466 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Page 2 of 9 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
Re: Modeling vs Sampling
CyberGene #3026659 09/19/20 06:42 AM
Joined: Oct 2018
Posts: 381
N
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
N
Joined: Oct 2018
Posts: 381
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Originally Posted by FloRi89
Because nobody outside the industry can tell the difference between the recording of a Steinway and a VST (or Pianoteq for that matter). That’s exactly the point I was making.
Not true about Pianoteq. It’s a very recognizable metallic sound.


Not sure why we discuss such controversial topics over and over.

Both things have their benefits, theres no better or worse.
And you don't have to forget, that it's really dependent on the velocity, how it will sound.
Digital Pianos with integrated sounds seem to aim for the sweet spot, masking the sensing inaccuracies.

Although it gets less obvious with models like a Yamaha N1X.

(ad)
Sweetwater Sale
Sweetwater Sale
Re: Modeling vs Sampling
CyberGene #3026661 09/19/20 06:44 AM
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 2,198
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 2,198
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Originally Posted by FloRi89
Because nobody outside the industry can tell the difference between the recording of a Steinway and a VST (or Pianoteq for that matter). That’s exactly the point I was making.
Not true about Pianoteq. It’s a very recognizable metallic sound.

Yeah, Pianoteq is right in the middle of the uncanny valley. As is Roland.


Richwood RD-17C-CE | LaMancha Rubi CM-N | Yamaha P-515
Re: Modeling vs Sampling
JoeT #3026664 09/19/20 06:53 AM
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 8,584
8000 Post Club Member
Offline
8000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 8,584
Originally Posted by JoeT
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Originally Posted by FloRi89
Because nobody outside the industry can tell the difference between the recording of a Steinway and a VST (or Pianoteq for that matter). That’s exactly the point I was making.
Not true about Pianoteq. It’s a very recognizable metallic sound.

Yeah, Pianoteq is right in the middle of the uncanny valley. As is Roland.

You can de-metalicise it you know . . . .


"I am not a man. I am a free number"

"[Linked Image]"
Re: Modeling vs Sampling
Vikendios #3026667 09/19/20 07:08 AM
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 12,639
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 12,639
Does a photo of a pizza taste as good as a pizza?

Re: Modeling vs Sampling
Vikendios #3026669 09/19/20 07:10 AM
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 13,902
B
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
B
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 13,902
Ask not what your piano can do for you; ask what you can do with your piano - Herr Hammerflügel (after JFK)

I can do lots with my V-Piano........because it's modeled smirk .

"All else is gaslight" - Herbert von Karajan grin


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
Re: Modeling vs Sampling
CyberGene #3026671 09/19/20 07:14 AM
Joined: Aug 2020
Posts: 123
F
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
F
Joined: Aug 2020
Posts: 123
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Originally Posted by FloRi89
Because nobody outside the industry can tell the difference between the recording of a Steinway and a VST (or Pianoteq for that matter). That’s exactly the point I was making.
Not true about Pianoteq. It’s a very recognizable metallic sound.

The people on this subforum are hardly representative of the rest of the world. It also depends a lot, if you have a direct comparison of the unedited “recording” or if we are talking about a produced part in a mix.

Re: Modeling vs Sampling
Vikendios #3026684 09/19/20 08:18 AM
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 3,287
P
3000 Post Club Member
Offline
3000 Post Club Member
P
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 3,287
With all due respect, Flo, this ‘subforum’ is indeed representative of the rest of the world.

This is why Yamaha, Roland, Kawai, etc.. have spies infiltrating this forum on a daily basis!

Re: Modeling vs Sampling
Pete14 #3026694 09/19/20 08:45 AM
Joined: Aug 2020
Posts: 123
F
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
F
Joined: Aug 2020
Posts: 123
Originally Posted by Pete14
With all due respect, Flo, this ‘subforum’ is indeed representative of the rest of the world.

This is why Yamaha, Roland, Kawai, etc.. have spies infiltrating this forum on a daily basis!

We are talking about people who play the piano in the first place, on a digital in the second and then are tech savy enough to go into a forum on the Internet.

I guarantee you, 90% of people who own a digital piano won’t be able to answer you what a VST is.

Nevertheless this is a very interesting target group for manufacturers, that doesn’t mean its representing anything else then the target group.

In marketing terms, we are some kind of persona like “John Doe, tech savy, mostly male” or something like that.

Trust me, they are analyzing the other personas like “Jane Doe, cares mostly about how the piano looks like in her living room as well”

(Please excuse the gender stereotypes, but unfortunately the that’s how the marketing world works)

Re: Modeling vs Sampling
CyberGene #3026696 09/19/20 08:58 AM
Joined: Jan 2020
Posts: 16
X
Junior Member
Offline
Junior Member
X
Joined: Jan 2020
Posts: 16
Originally Posted by CyberGene
The conclusion is that modeling is still not very convincing because of missing features in the model as well as inability to understand and model dissipation.

That wasn't the conclusion! That was just the end of section 3 describing the current state of pure "physics all the way down" theoretical piano modelling where you run a simulation for 24 hours and get a couple of seconds of inaccurate audio for your trouble.

Section 4 goes on to describe more practical modelling methods for real world synthesis.

W.R.T. dissipation for example: It might be difficult to make a finite element model of a soundboard that does accurate dissipation, but that doesn't matter because practical real world implementations don't model the soundboard like that anyway. Instead they use soundboard models which are computationally much simpler, but are more accurate because they are based on the measured responses of actual real soundboards.

Re: Modeling vs Sampling
Vikendios #3026698 09/19/20 09:02 AM
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 3,287
P
3000 Post Club Member
Offline
3000 Post Club Member
P
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 3,287
I guarantee you, 95% of people save 15% or more by switching to Geico!

Re: Modeling vs Sampling
xooorx #3026699 09/19/20 09:06 AM
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 2,198
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 2,198
Originally Posted by xooorx
Section 4 goes on to describe more practical modelling methods for real world synthesis.

W.R.T. dissipation for example: It might be difficult to make a finite element model of a soundboard that does accurate dissipation, but that doesn't matter because practical real world implementations don't model the soundboard like that anyway. Instead they use soundboard models which are computationally much simpler, but are more accurate because they are based on the measured responses of actual real soundboards.

"Measured responses of actual real soundboards" is just a convoluted term for "sampling" BTW.

And that's the truth in it: All "physical modeling" approaches in real world use are based around samples of certain real world piano models. They approximate those samples, but don't get anywhere close.


Richwood RD-17C-CE | LaMancha Rubi CM-N | Yamaha P-515
Re: Modeling vs Sampling
xooorx #3026701 09/19/20 09:11 AM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 6,237
6000 Post Club Member
Online Content
6000 Post Club Member
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 6,237
Originally Posted by xooorx
Originally Posted by CyberGene
The conclusion is that modeling is still not very convincing because of missing features in the model as well as inability to understand and model dissipation.

That wasn't the conclusion! That was just the end of section 3 describing the current state of pure "physics all the way down" theoretical piano modelling where you run a simulation for 24 hours and get a couple of seconds of inaccurate audio for your trouble.

Section 4 goes on to describe more practical modelling methods for real world synthesis.

W.R.T. dissipation for example: It might be difficult to make a finite element model of a soundboard that does accurate dissipation, but that doesn't matter because practical real world implementations don't model the soundboard like that anyway. Instead they use soundboard models which are computationally much simpler, but are more accurate because they are based on the measured responses of actual real soundboards.

Well, then it means even real kick-ass modeling is far from perfect for even offline rendering, hence current modeling approaches are not exactly what many people imagine is going on but rather a simplified approximation of a pre-recorded sound?


My YouTube, My Soundcloud
Currently: Yamaha N1X, DIY hybrid controller -> Garritan CFX
Previously: NU1X, ES7, MP6, CA63, RD-700SX, CDP-100, FP-5, P90, SP-200
Re: Modeling vs Sampling
Vikendios #3026704 09/19/20 09:15 AM
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 12,639
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 12,639
Input: fingers ... and it had better feel right.
Output: sound ... and it had better sound good.

In between input and output: who cares?

Re: Modeling vs Sampling
CyberGene #3026711 09/19/20 09:29 AM
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 2,198
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 2,198
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Well, then it means even real kick-ass modeling is far from perfect for even offline rendering, hence current modeling approaches are not exactly what many people imagine is going on but rather a simplified approximation of a pre-recorded sound?
That's pretty much what is it: "You get an approximation of samples we took so you save the storage space for those samples."

But storage space hasn't been an issue for more than a decade now. There is no advantage to this approach.


Richwood RD-17C-CE | LaMancha Rubi CM-N | Yamaha P-515
Re: Modeling vs Sampling
CyberGene #3026722 09/19/20 10:01 AM
Joined: Jan 2020
Posts: 16
X
Junior Member
Offline
Junior Member
X
Joined: Jan 2020
Posts: 16
Originally Posted by CyberGene
hence current modeling approaches are not exactly what many people imagine is going on
Indeed, as can sometimes be observed in the forums of certain modelling softwares.

Originally Posted by CyberGene
but rather a simplified approximation of a pre-recorded sound?
No, it's a computationally efficient model of a known response. It's a model. It responds. So you're listening to what a soundboard would do *now* given what the string models are all doing *now*, rather than listening to a sound collage cobbled together from a bunch of recordings of different strings sounding at different times like you get from a sampled piano.

Re: Modeling vs Sampling
JoeT #3026723 09/19/20 10:02 AM
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,228
E
EPW Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
E
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,228
Originally Posted by JoeT
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Well, then it means even real kick-ass modeling is far from perfect for even offline rendering, hence current modeling approaches are not exactly what many people imagine is going on but rather a simplified approximation of a pre-recorded sound?
That's pretty much what is it: "You get an approximation of samples we took so you save the storage space for those samples."

But storage space hasn't been an issue for more than a decade now. There is no advantage to this approach.

You can't make blanket statement like that. The advantage if the play-ability of the modeled engine compared to the sampled one. Now granted the super-mega sample size pianos do sound great and I would use Garritan if I was recording solo piano. But for practice playing I 100% prefer to use Pianoteq modeled piano for it play-ability. Especially if I knew I was going to be playing on a acoustic piano the piece. IMHO, see it is my opinion not making a blanket statement as fact, both have a place in the vsti world. Choice is good.

Peace


All these years playing and I still consider myself a novice.
Re: Modeling vs Sampling
EPW #3026730 09/19/20 10:19 AM
Joined: Aug 2020
Posts: 123
F
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
F
Joined: Aug 2020
Posts: 123
Originally Posted by EPW
Originally Posted by JoeT
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Well, then it means even real kick-ass modeling is far from perfect for even offline rendering, hence current modeling approaches are not exactly what many people imagine is going on but rather a simplified approximation of a pre-recorded sound?
That's pretty much what is it: "You get an approximation of samples we took so you save the storage space for those samples."

But storage space hasn't been an issue for more than a decade now. There is no advantage to this approach.

You can't make blanket statement like that. The advantage if the play-ability of the modeled engine compared to the sampled one. Now granted the super-mega sample size pianos do sound great and I would use Garritan if I was recording solo piano. But for practice playing I 100% prefer to use Pianoteq modeled piano for it play-ability. Especially if I knew I was going to be playing on a acoustic piano the piece. IMHO, see it is my opinion not making a blanket statement as fact, both have a place in the vsti world. Choice is good.

Peace

Or you could record yourself using Pianoteq because of the better playability and then render it out in a different VST of your liking. I there are hardly any limits in the digital world I guess.

Re: Modeling vs Sampling
EPW #3026737 09/19/20 10:29 AM
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 2,198
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 2,198
Originally Posted by EPW
Originally Posted by JoeT
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Well, then it means even real kick-ass modeling is far from perfect for even offline rendering, hence current modeling approaches are not exactly what many people imagine is going on but rather a simplified approximation of a pre-recorded sound?
That's pretty much what is it: "You get an approximation of samples we took so you save the storage space for those samples."

But storage space hasn't been an issue for more than a decade now. There is no advantage to this approach.

You can't make blanket statement like that. The advantage if the play-ability of the modeled engine compared to the sampled one.
There is no advantage in "play-ability" anymore. You can apply the same algorithms to simplified approximations of samples as you can to actual samples.

Quote
Now granted the super-mega sample size pianos do sound great and I would use Garritan if I was recording solo piano.
These are not the competition, because PC software doesn't represent state of the art technology. It's behind both approximation modeling and sample-processing hardware.


Richwood RD-17C-CE | LaMancha Rubi CM-N | Yamaha P-515
Re: Modeling vs Sampling
Vikendios #3026739 09/19/20 10:29 AM
Joined: Aug 2020
Posts: 130
V
Full Member
OP Offline
Full Member
V
Joined: Aug 2020
Posts: 130
An aside : Marketing wise, it is obviously in the interest of the makers of Yamaha (also owner of Bosendorfer) or Kawai to condone sampling of their own excellent acoustics. Roland has no such choice, and its ADN is in synths.

Long term, my bets are on modeling. It may be fashion, but also the best brains are always more attracted to creating than to copying, and I think the best mathematicians are now working for Roland and Pianoteq.

On the other hand, you can argue that even perfect modeling tools are designed to the purpose of duplicating nature. It always struck me as ironic that some of the best efforts of IT geniuses were directed, in the end, at exchanging baby pictures or facilitating teen-age mating rituals.



Steinway "A". Roland LX 706. Viscount Sonus 45 hybrid organ with 165 real pipes. Harpsichord by Marc Fontaine.
Re: Modeling vs Sampling
FloRi89 #3026741 09/19/20 10:35 AM
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,228
E
EPW Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
E
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,228
[/quote]

Or you could record yourself using Pianoteq because of the better playability and then render it out in a different VST of your liking. I there are hardly any limits in the digital world I guess.[/quote]

Some have luck with that approach and some not. But you are right in the digital world there are quite a lot of different approaches to get the job done. I just don't like the fighting that you have to be in one camp or the other. I use what works for me at the time. After all the software is just a tool to help get the job done IMO.


All these years playing and I still consider myself a novice.
Page 2 of 9 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9

Moderated by  Piano World 

Link Copied to Clipboard
(ad)
Pianoteq
Steinway Spiro Layering
(ad)
PianoDisc

PianoDisc
(ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad)
Mason & Hamlin Pianos
What's Hot!!
News from the Piano World
Our October 2020 Free Piano Newsletter is Here!
---------------------
3,000,000+!
------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums RULES & HELP
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Mixing VST audio with external hardware audio
by Andrew_G - 11/28/20 02:42 AM
File, sand and/or needle inside my Baldwin?
by DanD - 11/28/20 01:18 AM
Hybrid piano too loud for my neighbor :(
by kiwibd - 11/27/20 07:19 PM
White noise
by QuasarPiano - 11/27/20 05:40 PM
Im Strolling Along With You
by Claude56 - 11/27/20 05:12 PM
Download Sheet Music
Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads
Forum Statistics
Forums41
Topics203,088
Posts3,027,979
Members99,391
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Please Support Our Advertisers


Faust Harrison 100+ Steinways

Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver

 Best of Piano Buyer

PianoTeq Bechstein
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads



 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter |


copyright 1997 - 2020 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.4