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Modeling vs Sampling
#3026462 09/18/20 03:18 PM
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There seems to be quite a few misunderstandings about the difference between Modeling and Sampling, which are quite different technologies for Digital Pianos. Today, full modeling is only offered by Roland and Viscount/Physis (originally developed by the latter for their organs)

If you want to know more read this : Digital Modeling of Piano Physics

It will quickly test your mathematics, but the first pages are enough to get a clear picture of the issues.



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Re: Modeling vs Sampling
Vikendios #3026472 09/18/20 03:30 PM
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Interesting. Thanks for the link. The conclusion is that modeling is still not very convincing because of missing features in the model as well as inability to understand and model dissipation.


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Re: Modeling vs Sampling
Vikendios #3026480 09/18/20 03:47 PM
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A fellow user of Lyx, too! smile

(It's the best tool yet invented for structured writing.)


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Re: Modeling vs Sampling
Vikendios #3026483 09/18/20 04:17 PM
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Hopefully pianophil read this paper 2 years ago! smile

Re: Modeling vs Sampling
Vikendios #3026488 09/18/20 04:29 PM
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I think the Pianoteq guys have made a lot of progress since that paper was written, and of course we know nothing of the equations Roland are using. Anyway, I am sold on my Roland LX 706 engine.



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Re: Modeling vs Sampling
Vikendios #3026490 09/18/20 04:34 PM
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Modeling VS sampling battle reminds me of old Sega helicopter games, "LHX Attack Chopper" and "Desert Strike".

LHX - ugly picture, but 3D and closer to reality



Desert Strike - better picture, but no real 3D, no imitation of real chopper




The choice is yours.


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Re: Modeling vs Sampling
Vikendios #3026503 09/18/20 05:08 PM
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Modeled piano sound is like Pixar movie - cool but you can see (yet) it is not real.

Sampled piano sound is more real, but there is no full immersion (yet), and how cool it is depends on how good the team and the script are.

Acoustic piano sound is real like your life is, but you have to pay the real price, agree that it is what it is, and it will grow older and take a lot of beating.

Last edited by VladK; 09/18/20 05:16 PM.

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Re: Modeling vs Sampling
Vikendios #3026541 09/18/20 06:57 PM
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What we need is for modeling to get to Microsoft Flight Simulator 2020 levels.



Wait, are we still talking about pianos?


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Re: Modeling vs Sampling
FrankCox #3026606 09/19/20 02:51 AM
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Originally Posted by FrankCox
A fellow user of Lyx, too! smile

(It's the best tool yet invented for structured writing.)
The article may be written directly with LaTeX. With some tools like StudioTeX or www.overleaf.com, it is more practical than it used to be.


About piano synthesis, both approaches have their advantages, and people won’t agree on which is better. The comparison of helicopters game is quite nice.

Last edited by Frédéric L; 09/19/20 02:55 AM.

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Re: Modeling vs Sampling
Vikendios #3026611 09/19/20 03:47 AM
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I have listened to a bunch of comparisons recently, and I can tell you that 90% of the people wouldn’t hear the difference of a recorded Steinway D, a good sample library and Pianoteq.

In reality though it doesn’t really matter. If you want the real model D sound, cough up the 200k an buy one. If you are like me and that’s a bit much, you will have to make a compromise of some kind.

Re: Modeling vs Sampling
Vikendios #3026619 09/19/20 03:57 AM
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That's a false comparison. With a digital you listen to a recording.
But when you buy a Steinway (or any acoustic piano) you listen to the piano, not to a recording.
Approximately 100% of people can hear the difference.

Re: Modeling vs Sampling
CyberGene #3026625 09/19/20 04:09 AM
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Originally Posted by CyberGene
Interesting. Thanks for the link. The conclusion is that modeling is still not very convincing because of missing features in the model as well as inability to understand and model dissipation.

Within the constraints of consumer (and professional) products, there is nothing that surpassed wave memory synthesis based on sample recordings so far.

The only thing "pure physical modeling" had going was memory constraints of past wave memory synthesis technologies, but memory became cheap and plenty now, so that issue is a thing of the past now. Even flash memory became so cheap now, that people store hundreds of gigabytes of VSTi libraries on it.

For leading manufacturers of synthesizer hardware sample transformation is on par with "pure physical modeling", as they obviously employ modeling algorithms as well. (VSTi sample libraries are behind there, but they don't represent the state of the art. Just as Pianoteq doesn't represent the state of the art of "pure physical modeling".)


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Re: Modeling vs Sampling
MacMacMac #3026626 09/19/20 04:11 AM
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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
That's a false comparison. With a digital you listen to a recording.

It's comparing a real recording of a piano with a recording of a real piano. 🤔

Re: Modeling vs Sampling
MacMacMac #3026628 09/19/20 04:11 AM
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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
That's a false comparison. With a digital you listen to a recording.
But when you buy a Steinway (or any acoustic piano) you listen to the piano, not to a recording.
Approximately 100% of people can hear the difference.

Corona didn't do this forum any good. There is an influx of new accounts, who quickly became self-appointed experts on acoustic and digital pianos. You can read this kind of BS every day now on every thread.


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Re: Modeling vs Sampling
MacMacMac #3026631 09/19/20 04:38 AM
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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
That's a false comparison. With a digital you listen to a recording.
But when you buy a Steinway (or any acoustic piano) you listen to the piano, not to a recording.
Approximately 100% of people can hear the difference.

Not really, because the reason why people use VSTs is because they can’t afford the 200k for a Steinway. So you will have to get the next best thing, and that is a recording.

And it you compare the VST to a real piano it will loose every time. So the only fair comparison is with another recording.

Last edited by FloRi89; 09/19/20 04:39 AM.
Re: Modeling vs Sampling
FloRi89 #3026632 09/19/20 04:56 AM
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Precisely.
Originally Posted by FloRi89
And if you compare the VST to a real piano it will lose every time.

Re: Modeling vs Sampling
FloRi89 #3026636 09/19/20 05:35 AM
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Originally Posted by FloRi89
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
That's a false comparison. With a digital you listen to a recording.
But when you buy a Steinway (or any acoustic piano) you listen to the piano, not to a recording.
Approximately 100% of people can hear the difference.

Not really, because the reason why people use VSTs is because they can’t afford the 200k for a Steinway.

No, this is not the reason why people use VSTi plugins. You don't have a clue what's going on in that market.

The reason why people spend thousands of dollars on a collection sample libraries is because setting up a Steinway grand for recording is a day long hassle and plugins offer a shortcut saving precious time.


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Re: Modeling vs Sampling
JoeT #3026641 09/19/20 05:50 AM
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Originally Posted by JoeT
Originally Posted by FloRi89
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
That's a false comparison. With a digital you listen to a recording.
But when you buy a Steinway (or any acoustic piano) you listen to the piano, not to a recording.
Approximately 100% of people can hear the difference.

Not really, because the reason why people use VSTs is because they can’t afford the 200k for a Steinway.

No, this is not the reason why people use VSTi plugins. You don't have a clue what's going on in that market.

The reason why people spend thousands of dollars on a collection sample libraries is because setting up a Steinway grand for recording is a day long hassle and plugins offer a shortcut saving precious time.

Jupp, and the reason is (surprise): Because nobody outside the industry can tell the difference between the recording of a Steinway and a VST (or Pianoteq for that matter). That’s exactly the point I was making.

Btw., you know nothing about me. Better limit the assumptions of what I know and don’t know a little bit.

Edit: Time in that case of a production is just the same as money. Something that is rather limited for producers that can’t afford Steinways anyway.

Last edited by FloRi89; 09/19/20 05:52 AM.
Re: Modeling vs Sampling
johnstaf #3026654 09/19/20 06:27 AM
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Originally Posted by johnstaf
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
That's a false comparison. With a digital you listen to a recording.

It's comparing a real recording of a piano with a recording of a real piano. 🤔


For the comparison to be good, ou have to compare recording of Steinway to recording of recorded Steinway.
I guess that if you put mic in a room where Steinway and DP stand and record Steinway sound (name it A) and DP's sound (filling the room thru built-in speakers or monitors, no matter, and name it B) most people will prefer A.


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Re: Modeling vs Sampling
FloRi89 #3026657 09/19/20 06:34 AM
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Originally Posted by FloRi89
Because nobody outside the industry can tell the difference between the recording of a Steinway and a VST (or Pianoteq for that matter). That’s exactly the point I was making.
Not true about Pianoteq. It’s a very recognizable metallic sound.


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