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Re: Dissecting the Tone of Piano Hammers
Chernobieff Piano #3025965 09/17/20 10:54 AM
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Just for the fun of it, i posed the question to Todd, here is what he said:

"Scrub the surface back and forth from hammer to hammer to get the hard spots off the surface. Evens out tone from note to note."

I'll throw in that it should be thought of as a sugar-coating tool. I found it's not needed with the b-72 so much, but will be needed with the Hairspray. I think its also a good idea to have and use both hardeners as each has a different effect.

-chris

Last edited by Chernobieff Piano; 09/17/20 10:55 AM.

Chernobieff Piano Restorations
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Re: Dissecting the Tone of Piano Hammers
Chernobieff Piano #3025977 09/17/20 11:37 AM
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My question is what your customers' reactions are when you pull out that big red bottle of Big & Sexy hairspray. I imagine it would be either "cool, rock on dude" or "wait a minute, are you sure you're a real piano technician?" wink


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Re: Dissecting the Tone of Piano Hammers
Chernobieff Piano #3026003 09/17/20 12:56 PM
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Use the hairspray only when the customer left the room 😂

Re: Dissecting the Tone of Piano Hammers
Chernobieff Piano #3026008 09/17/20 01:11 PM
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I listened to Emery's recording, but if I closed my eyes, I do not think that I could tell where the "before" recording became the "after."


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Re: Dissecting the Tone of Piano Hammers
BDB #3026078 09/17/20 03:32 PM
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Must be my piano playing skilz made me subconsciously alter my playing so that the change is less noticeable cool


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Re: Dissecting the Tone of Piano Hammers
Chernobieff Piano #3026087 09/17/20 03:58 PM
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When I voice pianos, I use a copious amount of chromatic scales, to highlight differences between individual notes. Evenness is my primary concern. A remarkable number of pianos sound bad due to just a few notes standing out among the rest.


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Re: Dissecting the Tone of Piano Hammers
Chernobieff Piano #3026107 09/17/20 04:39 PM
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Emery, thank you very mucn for recording your lovely playing. I have listened through my HiFi with good speakers, and can definitely hear the improvement; the hard 'edge' has gone, but the richness is there. That beautiful piece is from a Morricone film score isn't it? Cinema Paradiso I think.

Re: Dissecting the Tone of Piano Hammers
BDB #3026115 09/17/20 05:03 PM
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Originally Posted by BDB
When I voice pianos, I use a copious amount of chromatic scales, to highlight differences between individual notes. Evenness is my primary concern. A remarkable number of pianos sound bad due to just a few notes standing out among the rest.

Agreed. A few of the notes in the middle register of my piano are a little loud/odd sounding. I plan to do an indecent amount of massaging of these hammers with the 1:2 per Toni's recommendations.

Last edited by Emery Wang; 09/17/20 05:04 PM.

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Re: Dissecting the Tone of Piano Hammers
David Boyce #3026116 09/17/20 05:05 PM
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Originally Posted by David Boyce
Emery, thank you very mucn for recording your lovely playing. I have listened through my HiFi with good speakers, and can definitely hear the improvement; the hard 'edge' has gone, but the richness is there. That beautiful piece is from a Morricone film score isn't it? Cinema Paradiso I think.

Thanks David. Still working on that piece. Yes, it is the theme song of Cinema Paradiso.


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Re: Dissecting the Tone of Piano Hammers
Chernobieff Piano #3026150 09/17/20 07:11 PM
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I'm currently working on Jurassic Park at the moment, the Patrick Peitschmen piano arrangement is so beautiful. Over the years i have added many movie themes to the rep.

I received my spray bottles today and they are perfect. I believe Todd is also getting them. One thing though, be careful if you use them with the b-72 and always run just pure alcohol afterwards to clean them out, otherwise they would clog up quickly.

-chris


Chernobieff Piano Restorations
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www.chernobieffpiano.com
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Re: Dissecting the Tone of Piano Hammers
Chernobieff Piano #3026153 09/17/20 07:14 PM
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Indeed they do. Sometimes the button is wonky, however, and you think they're clogged when you just need to wiggle the button when pushing. But yes, I always run just alcohol thru them at the end.

Glad they're working out for you Chris.

Last edited by Emery Wang; 09/17/20 07:14 PM.

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Re: Dissecting the Tone of Piano Hammers
Chernobieff Piano #3026199 09/17/20 11:38 PM
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I have 4 pianos I am restoring right now. 2 Baldwin R's that will be getting Renner Blue points. A Mason and Hamlin AA that will have Ronsen Hammers, and an upright piano that will have Abel hammers installed. All have new boards except the upright will have the original board. All will be voiced with the All Fabric softener/b-72 as needed. Then I will try to make recordings using nice equipment. I'll try to hustle up some local pianists for the recordings. We'll see if the various soundboards and hammers all voiced the same way will give a further testament to this method.
-chris


Chernobieff Piano Restorations
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Lenoir City, Tennessee U.S.A
www.chernobieffpiano.com
grandpianoman@protonmail.com
Re: Dissecting the Tone of Piano Hammers
Chernobieff Piano #3026434 09/18/20 02:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Chernobieff Piano
It would be nice if a chemist would look over those ingredients and offer a natural alternative. After just a brief glance, looks like maybe the the coconut fatty acid salt is coating and softening the fibers?? As the rest of the ingredients seem to be cleaners and surfactants.
-chris

Not a chemist, but I think I understood my chemistry classes...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fabric_softener#Cationic_fabric_softeners
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polydimethylsiloxane

They just lubricate the fibers, there's nothing more to fabric softener as far as I can tell from looking up research papers. I don't think anything "natural" is going to do a better job than those two, and commercial fabric softener should use those chemicals. The differences between brands probably has something to do with concentration.

Re: Dissecting the Tone of Piano Hammers
trigalg693 #3026544 09/18/20 07:20 PM
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trigalg693,
Don't sell yourself short, that was a very helpful post. I followed your two links and it turns out Silicone oil is the ingredient that does ALL the work. I shared this with Todd and as i was talking to him he ordered a gallon of the stuff. Looks like he and I will be experimenting with it and once we come up with a formula we like we'll pass it on to you guys. My thinking is to just use it 100% and add alcohol until it wicks real nice. Then i'll add some lavender essential oil. I have a feeling Todd will add Rosewater.

I'll be in touch.
-chris


Chernobieff Piano Restorations
"Where Tone is Key"
Lenoir City, Tennessee U.S.A
www.chernobieffpiano.com
grandpianoman@protonmail.com
Re: Dissecting the Tone of Piano Hammers
Chernobieff Piano #3026572 09/18/20 10:19 PM
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And the reason we wash clothes is to remove oils. Companies figured out that they could convince people to "oil" their clean clothes just to solve the static electricity issue. Stupid people. I don't allow the stuff in my house.

Companies also figured out they could take filtered tap water and put it in plastic bottles, ship it around the world and sell it to people. Stupid people buy that too.

Last edited by Ed McMorrow, RPT; 09/18/20 10:20 PM.

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Re: Dissecting the Tone of Piano Hammers
Chernobieff Piano #3026676 09/19/20 07:26 AM
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Interesting revelation about silicone. Although I am amazed at how this concoction works, I am now thinking that perhaps the method of atomizing it to apply it might not be such a good idea, particularly right in the vicinity of the piano. Dropper or brush application might be safer (though slower). If the spray application was made far enough away from the body of the piano that might be better.

OTOH I have no PROOF that any harm could result either. Just my .02

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Re: Dissecting the Tone of Piano Hammers
Chernobieff Piano #3026717 09/19/20 09:54 AM
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Good point Peter. Having sprayed hammers a few times in my kitchen, the overspray does make the floor quite slippery. Fortunately the fabric softener is easily cleaned up with a wet rag. I may spray my friend's hammers at his house soon, and I'm thinking that in addition to covering the action to protect it, I may also have him hold a bath towel like a curtain to catch the overspray.


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Re: Dissecting the Tone of Piano Hammers
Chernobieff Piano #3026748 09/19/20 11:03 AM
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The only over spray problem i have had is with the big red sexy. I turned the action around in the action cavity to spray. The over spray went on the finish of the piano and was immediately starting to melt it. So be careful of that one. I do most of my work in a shop, so i'm not as aware of it as you guys are. One thing for sure, the evenness spraying offers voicing is big plus. I use the spraying for sustain building and building tone as in a final pass or two on the tips. But, i use hypos when i want to build dynamics such as in new hammers, because i can apply it from the side directly where its needed.
-chris


Chernobieff Piano Restorations
"Where Tone is Key"
Lenoir City, Tennessee U.S.A
www.chernobieffpiano.com
grandpianoman@protonmail.com
Re: Dissecting the Tone of Piano Hammers
Chernobieff Piano #3029026 09/25/20 05:05 PM
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Unfortunately the big sexy hairspray doesn’t work for me. Somehow I always get these pingy sounds I don’t like. Paraloid b72 is in my case much more controllable and give me the sound quality I prefer.
Lately I came across some very weak high treble hammers and nothing worked to bring them up, means having brilliance and full body. Maybe someone has a good advice for me.
In the meantime I use the 1:2 also for final voicing in and pump sprayer for individual hammer spraying. Varying the distance from the hammers give me the right „strength“ of sugar coating.

Re: Dissecting the Tone of Piano Hammers
Chernobieff Piano #3029065 09/25/20 06:48 PM
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Toni,

I would consider strike point. Have you played around with that? (Of course if it's a vertical that's not so easy).

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