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Alive.

Argerich? Kissin?

In terms of awards and global recognition.

Last edited by onaiplatigid; 09/16/20 06:27 PM.

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If you take piano as the totality of the stage experience. Then it's one of those guys from the popular list.

If we remove the stage experience part, and only look at what is Objectively possible in terms of musical capability , it's likely one of those musical-savants.

They all have severe brain damage/ rewiring which disproportionately appropriates the brain's processing power towards functions that translate into musical ability..

For example, they can't button a button, but they can dissect the notes of 10s of instruments played simultaneously.

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Originally Posted by onaiplatigid
Alive.

Argerich? Kissin?

In terms of awards and global recognition.

Some of the most recognised, like Agerich Brendel and Barenboim, are past their best on the concert platform and have stopped performing.

Of those I have heard in concert I rate Yuja Wang and Garrick Ohlsson as top notch. But they part of a leading group.

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Originally Posted by terentius
Originally Posted by onaiplatigid
Alive.

Argerich? Kissin?

In terms of awards and global recognition.

Some of the most recognised, like Agerich Brendel and Barenboim, are past their best on the concert platform and have stopped performing.

Of those I have heard in concert I rate Yuja Wang and Garrick Ohlsson as top notch. But they part of a leading group.

Argerich still performs at a very high level.

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Originally Posted by terentius
Originally Posted by onaiplatigid
Alive.

Argerich? Kissin?

In terms of awards and global recognition.

Some of the most recognised, like Agerich Brendel and Barenboim, are past their best on the concert platform and have stopped performing.

Of those I have heard in concert I rate Yuja Wang and Garrick Ohlsson as top notch. But they part of a leading group.

I attended two Martha Argerich concerts in 2019. Her playing was breathtaking. I was expecting to be disappointed, being a huge fan for many decades of the recordings from her youth. However, it was probably the best piano playing I've ever heard, along with Grigory Sokolov the previous year.

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Originally Posted by jeffcat
If we remove the stage experience part, and only look at what is Objectively possible in terms of musical capability , it's likely one of those musical-savants.
In terms of classical piano, I don't know of a single musical savant who is a top pianist.

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Saw Kissin in concert. Meh.

Valentina was quite incredible at the concert she gave here and my SO felt the same (and she is a piano teacher since 20 years).

But Hamelin is IMHO above everyone else.

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I believe Joyce Hatto meets all your requirements...



On a more (or less) serious note, in objective terms, Peter Bence holds the Guinness World Record for "most piano key hits in one minute".



He has certainly mastered this instrument and grown beyond it as a musician.




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Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Originally Posted by jeffcat
If we remove the stage experience part, and only look at what is Objectively possible in terms of musical capability , it's likely one of those musical-savants.
In terms of classical piano, I don't know of a single musical savant who is a top pianist.

They're not top pianists by the Common definition YOU and I would use.

HOWEVER, that's a form of prejudice.

There are multiple dimensions to music. The addition OR subtraction of such dimensions does not fundamentally constitute better or worse.

The savants understand and relate to "their respective anomalous talent" typically in a form of synthesia, which is a far more intimate comprehension that no normally-emotional being can achieve (without psychedelics). Seeing/ Tasting sound, how are we <from the outside> suppose to understand that. Savant memory/recall is statistically 7 standard deviations above. How does a person who has a strong recollection of Hundreds of pages differ from someone who recalls hundreds of thousands of pages.

They are completely different and God-like.
If you build RPG characters.

Generally Great Pianist
+10 dexterity
+10 empathy
+10 memory

Savant
+8 dexterity
-10 empathy
+xx synthesia
+999 memory

The music of a savant may well exceed our own ability to truly grasp, because of the differences. The fact that they can't win a normal human piano competition or be judged like every other pianist means little.

For example, there are mathematical geniuses around who produce works which approximately only 200 people on the planet can understand. It doesn't look like great writing or much of anything to 99.999% of humans, but for anyone who could read whatever the pages state, it's monolithic.

Last edited by jeffcat; 09/16/20 11:08 PM.
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None of these are "best" and the last 2 aren't classical. That belongs in another room.


Originally Posted by navindra
I believe Joyce Hatto meets all your requirements...



On a more (or less) serious note, in objective terms, Peter Bence holds the Guinness World Record for "most piano key hits in one minute".



He has certainly mastered this instrument and grown beyond it as a musician.





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Originally Posted by jeffcat
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Originally Posted by jeffcat
If we remove the stage experience part, and only look at what is Objectively possible in terms of musical capability , it's likely one of those musical-savants.
In terms of classical piano, I don't know of a single musical savant who is a top pianist.

They're not top pianists by the Common definition YOU and I would use.

HOWEVER, that's a form of prejudice.

There are multiple dimensions to music. The addition OR subtraction of such dimensions does not fundamentally constitute better or worse.

The savants understand and relate to "their respective anomalous talent" typically in a form of synthesia, which is a far more intimate comprehension that no normally-emotional being can achieve (without psychedelics). Seeing/ Tasting sound, how are we <from the outside> suppose to understand that. Savant memory/recall is statistically 7 standard deviations above. How does a person who has a strong recollection of Hundreds of pages differ from someone who recalls hundreds of thousands of pages.

They are completely different and God-like.
If you build RPG characters.

Generally Great Pianist
+10 dexterity
+10 empathy
+10 memory

Savant
+8 dexterity
-10 empathy
+xx synthesia
+999 memory

The music of a savant may well exceed our own ability to truly grasp, because of the differences. The fact that they can't win a normal human piano competition or be judged like every other pianist means little.

For example, there are mathematical geniuses around who produce works which approximately only 200 people on the planet can understand. It doesn't look like great writing or much of anything to 99.999% of humans, but for anyone who could read whatever the pages state, it's monolithic.


or one with extra finger on each hand, but like you said, not really the definition we're talking about.


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Check out Rousseau on YouTube.

His identity is unknown but he can certainly play, and play anything!

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Where exactly are the "classical" constraints coming from? Just curious -- you may be right, but I haven't see any "classical" constraints advertised anywhere.

My post was largely in jest, but Peter Bence is no joke -- he's a virtuoso pianist to my knowledge with classical background, and he has certainly mastered his instrument and graduated beyond.

Originally Posted by onaiplatigid
None of these are "best" and the last 2 aren't classical. That belongs in another room.


Originally Posted by navindra
I believe Joyce Hatto meets all your requirements...



On a more (or less) serious note, in objective terms, Peter Bence holds the Guinness World Record for "most piano key hits in one minute".



He has certainly mastered this instrument and grown beyond it as a musician.




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Yeah he's awesome. I posted those videos you posted in other rooms and threads before.


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Originally Posted by jeffcat
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Originally Posted by jeffcat
If we remove the stage experience part, and only look at what is Objectively possible in terms of musical capability , it's likely one of those musical-savants.
In terms of classical piano, I don't know of a single musical savant who is a top pianist.

They're not top pianists by the Common definition YOU and I would use.

HOWEVER, that's a form of prejudice.

There are multiple dimensions to music. The addition OR subtraction of such dimensions does not fundamentally constitute better or worse.

The savants understand and relate to "their respective anomalous talent" typically in a form of synthesia, which is a far more intimate comprehension that no normally-emotional being can achieve (without psychedelics). Seeing/ Tasting sound, how are we <from the outside> suppose to understand that. Savant memory/recall is statistically 7 standard deviations above. How does a person who has a strong recollection of Hundreds of pages differ from someone who recalls hundreds of thousands of pages.

They are completely different and God-like.
If you build RPG characters.

Generally Great Pianist
+10 dexterity
+10 empathy
+10 memory

Savant
+8 dexterity
-10 empathy
+xx synthesia
+999 memory

The music of a savant may well exceed our own ability to truly grasp, because of the differences. The fact that they can't win a normal human piano competition or be judged like every other pianist means little.
Very hard to figure out what you mean here. It's not just you and me who would not rate these pianists highly, it's all knowledgeable people.

I have no idea where you get the numerical ratings you give. Memory is not considered the a criteria for greatness of a pianist. Empathy is not clear at all and impossible to rate. Finally, synthesia is again not a criteria for being a great pianist. So even if those ratings you give comparing a great pianist to a savant are true(where do they come from?), I find them utterly irrelevant and I think close to 100% would agree with me.

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Originally Posted by navindra
My post was largely in jest, but Peter Bence is no joke -- he's a virtuoso pianist to my knowledge with classical background, and he has certainly mastered his instrument and graduated beyond.

On a more (or less) serious note, in objective terms, Peter Bence holds the Guinness World Record for "most piano key hits in one minute".



He has certainly mastered this instrument and grown beyond it as a musician.
Bence shows good technique for a pop musician but the music he plays is frankly elementary compared to the difficult works in the classical piano literature or the jazz pianists with the greatest technique.

The Guinness Record thing has to be rephrased because as you phrased it it's not true. One can clearly hit more keys if one plays chords in both hands. The whole demonstration is quite silly and meaningless.

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Originally Posted by jeffcat
it's likely one of those musical-savants.

Do you have any examples? Who are those?

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It just depends on what you mean by best. In terms of commercial success, there are richest pianists, e.g.

10. Yuja Wang
9 Lang Lang.
8 Yanni.
7 Daniel Barenboim.
6 Bruno Mars.
5 Bob Dylan.
4 Billy Joel.
3 John Williams
2 Elton John
1 Andrew Lloyd Webber
Source: https://www.therichest.com/luxury/pianists-rich-world/

But different lists don't fully agree. Now you will of course tell me that commercial success does not necessarily mean musically best, but it's one of the few non-subjective measures that exist to evaluate your question. Anything else is just personal taste.


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Originally Posted by onaiplatigid
Alive.

Argerich? Kissin?

In terms of awards and global recognition.

How do you measure global recognition ? It is not like tennis players with a ranking based on number of won tournaments.


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Originally Posted by jeffcat
[quote=pianoloverus][quote=jeffcat]
The savants understand and relate to "their respective anomalous talent" typically in a form of synthesia, which is a far more intimate comprehension that no normally-emotional being can achieve (without psychedelics). Seeing/ Tasting sound, how are we <from the outside> suppose to understand that. Savant memory/recall is statistically 7 standard deviations above. How does a person who has a strong recollection of Hundreds of pages differ from someone who recalls hundreds of thousands of pages.

They are completely different and God-like.
If you build RPG characters.

Generally Great Pianist
+10 dexterity
+10 empathy
+10 memory

Savant
+8 dexterity
-10 empathy
+xx synthesia
+999 memory

The music of a savant may well exceed our own ability to truly grasp, because of the differences. The fact that they can't win a normal human piano competition or be judged like every other pianist means little.

For example, there are mathematical geniuses around who produce works which approximately only 200 people on the planet can understand. It doesn't look like great writing or much of anything to 99.999% of humans, but for anyone who could read whatever the pages state, it's monolithic.
I don't think that's true. Think of a savant, and think of a mere genius like Einstein or his contemporaries. You need to distinguish between simply very high intelligence and the savant syndrome.

Understanding does not come from millions of pages of information. By that measure, the best music producing intelligence would be some of the recent deep learning AI algorithms, but as of yet, they don't really produce any music of note.

The real understanding comes from a dense network of associations, common threads and frameworks behind a large body of knowledge. Having seen mathematicians in action (maybe not the very best but still really good ones), what are them apart is their ability to perceive difficult-to-see yet profound analogies and associations, often drawing from disparate bodies of knowledge in an incredible way. However, they do not typically have an extraordinary memory. They are able to do a lot with very little information by applying logic and intuition.

Savants have a very large memory, but less ability to generalize and draw upon their knowledge. That is why you very rarely see savants in mathematics (I'm referring to mathematicians and not human calculators). The same imo holds with musicians. The best musicals are able to master all the common musical concepts and more, and execute it in a way that seems organic and results in listeners perceiving additional layers of depth.

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