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Negotiate
#3025597 09/16/20 11:33 AM
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I am wondering if someone can help me
understand fair price for A Yamaha. MSRP
for a C2X is around 45k, it is listed on sale for 36k and the salesman let me know he has room on price. I want to pay a fair price but I have no idea what that is.


Lbrady
Re: Negotiate
BradyL #3025600 09/16/20 11:50 AM
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So I calculated a discount rate of 20% off SMP and here’s what I come up with for US dollars using Larry Fine’s pricing guide:
MSRP; SMP 20% discount

$43,999 $40,198 $32,158

There is quite a bit of difference in pricing depending on the local market and the local dealers pricing methods.

In my book the only thing better than a new C2X is a C3X!
Best Wishes on your search.

Last edited by j&j; 09/16/20 11:52 AM.

J & J
Estonia L190 Hidden Beauty
Casio Privia PX-330
I don’t play well but I play far better than I sing.
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Re: Negotiate
j&j #3025609 09/16/20 12:10 PM
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j&j is giving helpful advice, but if you are not familiar with Fine's publication - look around on this page for an ad link to The Piano Buyer. It is the best place to start for pricing information taken directly from the manufacturers and the industry.

Originally Posted by j&j
In my book the only thing better than a new C2X is a C3X!
The only thing? wink. I wonder how much a new something else would be? smile

Reported prices vary significantly, and are often imprecise on details about sales tax %, delivery costs, included follow up services, trade values, payment method, and sometimes circumstances specific to the sale (was it aging inventory, special financing program, used in some sort of demo prior to sale, etc.).

It sounds like your sales professional is waiting for you to take some additional initiative in hopes of closing the sale. They are good pianos.


Sam Bennett
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Re: Negotiate
PianoWorksATL #3025621 09/16/20 12:29 PM
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Originally Posted by PianoWorksATL
j&j is giving helpful advice, but if you are not familiar with Fine's publication - look around on this page for an ad link to The Piano Buyer. It is the best place to start for pricing information taken directly from the manufacturers and the industry.

Originally Posted by j&j
In my book the only thing better than a new C2X is a C3X!
The only thing? wink. I wonder how much a new something else would be? smile

Reported prices vary significantly, and are often imprecise on details about sales tax %, delivery costs, included follow up services, trade values, payment method, and sometimes circumstances specific to the sale (was it aging inventory, special financing program, used in some sort of demo prior to sale, etc.).

It sounds like your sales professional is waiting for you to take some additional initiative in hopes of closing the sale. They are good pianos.

Thanks for the clarification. I am a jaded and biased Yamaha fan and Estonia fan to be sure. What I really meant was the Yamaha CX series is great quality for price and are rather consistent straight from the factory. Whenever I sit down to a new CX I enjoy playing it. Yamaha does indeed make higher line pianos but all at a higher price. Plus I love the Yamaha ivorite key surface, which comes with most if not all the Yamaha grands. It doesn’t stain or fade but has a natural finish which adds a bit of grip to the key surface.


J & J
Estonia L190 Hidden Beauty
Casio Privia PX-330
I don’t play well but I play far better than I sing.
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Re: Negotiate
BradyL #3025627 09/16/20 12:42 PM
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I'd start at 29000 and go from there.


Lisa

Playing RCM 8 repertoire
Kawai UST-9, Yamaha CLP565GP & CLP645

"I tell my piano the things I used to tell you." - Frederic Chopin
Re: Negotiate
BradyL #3025702 09/16/20 03:51 PM
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Originally Posted by BradyL
I am wondering if someone can help me
understand fair price for A Yamaha. MSRP
for a C2X is around 45k, it is listed on sale for 36k and the salesman let me know he has room on price. I want to pay a fair price but I have no idea what that is.
My rule of thumb for Yamaha and Kawai (at least in the USA) is that you shouldn't have to pay more than 2/3 of MSRP, and "good deal" territory is about 60%.

The longer the piano has been in the showroom, the closer you should be able to get to the 60% level. If it's been there for an extraordinarily long time, like 5 years, you might even get close to 50%.


First love: Kawai GX-6
Yamaha Motif XF8
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Re: Negotiate
MarianneØ #3025706 09/16/20 04:02 PM
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Originally Posted by MarianneØ
Originally Posted by BradyL
I am wondering if someone can help me
understand fair price for A Yamaha. MSRP
for a C2X is around 45k, it is listed on sale for 36k and the salesman let me know he has room on price. I want to pay a fair price but I have no idea what that is.
My rule of thumb for Yamaha and Kawai (at least in the USA) is that you shouldn't have to pay more than 2/3 of MSRP, and "good deal" territory is about 60%.

The longer the piano has been in the showroom, the closer you should be able to get to the 60% level. If it's been there for an extraordinarily long time, like 5 years, you might even get close to 50%.

If you can get the serial number of the piano, you should be able to find out the date of manufacture. That might give some indication of how long the dealer may have had the piano on the floor.

Regards,

Last edited by BruceD; 09/16/20 04:03 PM.

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Re: Negotiate
MarianneØ #3025749 09/16/20 05:57 PM
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Originally Posted by MarianneØ
Originally Posted by BradyL
I am wondering if someone can help me
understand fair price for A Yamaha. MSRP
for a C2X is around 45k, it is listed on sale for 36k and the salesman let me know he has room on price. I want to pay a fair price but I have no idea what that is.
My rule of thumb for Yamaha and Kawai (at least in the USA) is that you shouldn't have to pay more than 2/3 of MSRP, and "good deal" territory is about 60%.

The longer the piano has been in the showroom, the closer you should be able to get to the 60% level. If it's been there for an extraordinarily long time, like 5 years, you might even get close to 50%.

We recently purchased a C2X that had been sitting at the dealer for several years and Marianne's recommendations were spot on to our experience as well.

The only resource I could find that included the serial numbers for newer Yamaha pianos was a website in Australia.

https://www.prestigepianos.com.au/resources/pianos/yamaha-piano-1.aspx

If you decide to purchase the C2X, you likely will not be disappointed. For the price, it has a very clear sound that we enjoy immensely.

One note of interest (no pun intended): Ours was made in 2017. After purchasing it, I happened to stop in at another dealer that had a C2X made in 2014 and did not care for the sound at all. Rather, it sounded muffled compared to ours. Stopped back in about a month later and getting more familiar with ours to double check the sound, with the same results. Perhaps there were differing builds between years, dealer prep, room acoustics, YMMV.


Yamaha C2X
Yamaha P-125
Re: Negotiate
BradyL #3026050 09/17/20 03:38 PM
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It's interesting to read these US prices.

On a side note, here in Denmark, a C2X is listed at USD 31,580 on the Danish Yamaha homepage (for comparison, I paid around USD 32,650 for an SK-2 almost three years ago after some negotiation). A dealer has a list price on his homepage of USD 28,350 for the C2X. I expect these numbers to be negotiable, albeit not by much.


Schubert, Beethoven, Brahms, Bach and Berg
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Re: Negotiate
BradyL #3026053 09/17/20 03:47 PM
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This site has been so helpful to me! So I tried a c3 from 2000. Loved it - and less $ than a new c2x. Can my 18x15 room accommodate a 6’1” piano?.
How much louder are grand pianos as they increase in size? If it matters, one side of the room is about 8 feet of windows and another side has double glass french doors.


Lbrady
Re: Negotiate
BradyL #3026055 09/17/20 03:53 PM
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Originally Posted by BradyL
So I tried a c3 from 2000. Loved it - and less $ than a new c2x.

Awesome!! I am super excited for you!!

Quote
Can my 18x15 room accommodate a 6’1” piano?.
How much louder are grand pianos as they increase in size? If it matters, one side of the room is about 8 feet of windows and another side has double glass french doors.

I have a Yamaha C2 in an 11 x 18 room. I could fit a C3 in here, but it would be a tad crowded, as it is I can slide around the back of the piano's tail to access lighting, curtains etc. (BTW my C2 is from 2000 also!)

So given the fact that your room is a good bit bigger than mine, I think you should be fine with a C3 in there. Do see if the dealer can lend you a floor template though, that's always super helpful! (Wait, are you buying from a dealer?)

Re the question of loudness.... I think more than the difference between a C2 and a C3, the issue for you will be the hard surfaces in the room. Do you have curtains on either the windows or the french doors? If you don't, could you get some?

Does the room have a carpet or area rug?


Started piano June 1999.
Proud owner of a Yamaha C2

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Re: Negotiate
BradyL #3026080 09/17/20 04:36 PM
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Thanks! The rock
It has hardwood floors with a thin carpet that covers maybe 75% of floor. It has a sofa and two upholstered chairs. No curtains.


Lbrady
Re: Negotiate
BradyL #3026117 09/17/20 06:06 PM
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Originally Posted by BradyL
Thanks! The rock
It has hardwood floors with a thin carpet that covers maybe 75% of floor. It has a sofa and two upholstered chairs. No curtains.

You may want to put a rug under the piano if it's going to be on hardwood.

Hard surfaces reflect sound (echo-y) and soft surfaces absorb sound. With a grand piano, the sound board gets projected towards to floor and towards the lid. Another question to consider would be whether you plan on playing more with the lid open or closed.

A fun experiment with acoustic is just try talking inside a closet . All the clothes will essentially emulate the effect of the sound foam in a recording studio. It'll immediately absorb the sound waves and your voice will sound different and quieter.

Re: Negotiate
BradyL #3026124 09/17/20 06:18 PM
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Originally Posted by BradyL
Thanks! The rock
It has hardwood floors with a thin carpet that covers maybe 75% of floor. It has a sofa and two upholstered chairs. No curtains.

The furniture will help, as will the rug. If you wanted to, you could buy a felt carpet pad to go under the rug.... Actually, you should do that any way! We did that before the grand was delivered, and it made the carpet so much nicer, we wished we had done it before.

In any case, I imagine it will be fine, that's a good sized room and a C3 is not a huge piano. Once you get the piano in the room, you can see how it sounds and decide whether you want to add curtains or not.

On the topic of playing with the lid up or not... IMO the whole point of getting a grand is to be able to enjoy playing with the lid up. But you don't have to play with the lid on the full stick, putting it on the short stick allows you to enjoy the open acoustics without being overpowering.

Can you tell that I really hope you get the C3? whome


Started piano June 1999.
Proud owner of a Yamaha C2

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Re: Negotiate
BradyL #3026944 09/19/20 09:57 PM
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FYI, glass amplifies (reflects greatly) sound. You have two walls with glass a d a hardwood floor? You may need to wear earplugs.

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Re: Negotiate
BradyL #3026992 09/20/20 01:42 AM
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Some c3(and other Yamaha) are brighter especially in the treble section. You can ask the piano technician to voice it down somewhat in addition to placing sound absorbing materials in the room such as rugs and curtains. 15’x18’ room should be ok to house a c3 especially if you have openings to other parts of your home.

Last edited by K8KT; 09/20/20 01:44 AM.
Re: Negotiate
BradyL #3027233 09/20/20 04:39 PM
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Originally Posted by BradyL
I am wondering if someone can help me
understand fair price for A Yamaha. MSRP
for a C2X is around 45k, it is listed on sale for 36k and the salesman let me know he has room on price. I want to pay a fair price but I have no idea what that is.

In addition to the helpful advice people above have given, I try the following exercise:

Starting at $0.00 and going up to e.g., $200,000, I ask myself: "would I rather have the cash than the piano/house/car/etc.?"

Going up in 50% increments with each round of inquiry, I try to find the price (or narrow price range) whereat my choice starts to flip -- where I'd rather have the money than the piano. To me, that represents a personal notion of "fair price" and value.

I then compare that figure or range against the market data I can get to see if any adjustments are necessary...i.e., I need to abandon my hopes or I'm treated to good news that I value something greater than the market -- a kind of an arbitrage opportunity for a buyer.

Re: Negotiate
BradyL #3027247 09/20/20 05:22 PM
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I hope we will hear back from Brady —- did he buy a piano???


"Music, rich, full of feeling, not soulless, is like a crystal on which the sun falls and brings forth from it a whole rainbow" - F. Chopin
"I never dreamt with my own two hands I could touch the sky" - Sappho

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Re: Negotiate
BradyL #3027905 09/22/20 02:37 PM
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So I’m down to the end in my search. Am looking at a 1982 C3 for 11 or a 2010 c3 for 16,500. Both are pristine condition and sound great. I have no meaningful playing preference. Is it worth the extra $5,500 for the newer model?


Lbrady
Re: Negotiate
BradyL #3027909 09/22/20 02:48 PM
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Ceteris paribus I'd go with the newer one. That pricing for the 1982 seems odd and high.

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