2017 was our 20th year online!

Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 3 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Shop our online store for music lovers
SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Petrof Pianos
Petrof Pianos
(ad)
Best of Piano Buyer
 Best of Piano Buyer
(ad)
Faust Harrison Pianos
Faust Harrison 100+ Steinway pianos
Who's Online Now
48 members (computerpro3, adamjh, anotherscott, 36251, CLM Piano Learner, cmb13, bounced, ElaineAllegro, 11 invisible), 416 guests, and 310 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Schulte tables with notes
#3024152 09/12/20 03:09 AM
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 3,665
N
Nahum Offline OP
3000 Post Club Member
OP Offline
3000 Post Club Member
N
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 3,665
Everyone knows Schulte tables with numbers and letters, used to improve the reading process. I wonder if there is a similar one containing notes?

Something in this spirit:

[Linked Image]

(ad)
Piano & Music Accessories
piano accessories music gifts tuning and moving equipment
Re: Schulte tables with notes
Nahum #3024269 09/12/20 11:36 AM
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 3,665
N
Nahum Offline OP
3000 Post Club Member
OP Offline
3000 Post Club Member
N
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 3,665
I wonder if speed reading is studied in modern general education schools? I read about this for the first time only in the early 80s (in the Soviet Union, this technique was used only in the judicial system and intelligence agencies ;but not for mere mortals ).However, if we compare the need for speed reading of numbers, letters and notes, then for a musician the last thing has much more weight than the rest. And just this topic ... isn't studied at all, there is no scientifically substantiated methodology; and each teacher racks his brains and solves the student's problems, as far as he understands.

Last edited by Nahum; 09/12/20 11:37 AM.
Re: Schulte tables with notes
Nahum #3024326 09/12/20 01:45 PM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 18,006
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 18,006
Originally Posted by Nahum
Everyone knows Schulte tables with numbers and letters, used to improve the reading process.
I never heard of it. Looked it up.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schulte_table

Quote
I wonder if there is a similar one containing notes?

Something in this spirit:

[Linked Image]
Except for the one with the treble clef, any of the others could be one of two things. The first to the left could be D or F for example. If associating with a place on the keyboard (another aspect of reading music which is not shared in reading words or numbers), it is either the key right in front of me, or to the left near my shoulder sort of.

Re: Schulte tables with notes
Nahum #3024335 09/12/20 02:11 PM
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 3,665
N
Nahum Offline OP
3000 Post Club Member
OP Offline
3000 Post Club Member
N
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 3,665
Originally Posted by keystring
Except for the one with the treble clef, any of the others could be one of two things. The first to the left could be D or F for example. If associating with a place on the keyboard (another aspect of reading music which is not shared in reading words or numbers), it is either the key right in front of me, or to the left near my shoulder sort of.

I know all this. I presented the idea, not the finished product of the idea. Not sure if you get the idea; this is not just reading notes, but speed reading, which requires a different control of looking at the text : not anticipating eye movement with each note, but simultaneous coverage of a group of notes with the transition to the next group. Thus, the number of eye movements is reduced. Clearly this first requires training outside the instrument.

Re: Schulte tables with notes
Nahum #3024511 09/13/20 02:36 AM
Joined: Apr 2020
Posts: 8
B
Junior Member
Offline
Junior Member
B
Joined: Apr 2020
Posts: 8
Nahum, I'm not sure what you are trying to suggest about this. I'm quite certain the Schulte table was originally designed to measure specific attentional properties in human cognition. I suggest you look into the fields of Psychology relating specifically to cognition and sensations/perceptions if you haven't already.

Attention isn't something that can be trained as far as I know. In my opinion, it is a inherent trait. You can enhance it with stimulants but that's about it. If we could train people to pay attention, then attentional deficits in humans would have been solved without resorting to stimulants.

Last edited by barc; 09/13/20 02:37 AM.
Re: Schulte tables with notes
Nahum #3024526 09/13/20 03:41 AM
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 3,665
N
Nahum Offline OP
3000 Post Club Member
OP Offline
3000 Post Club Member
N
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 3,665
This is according about to the Schulte design pattern:

[Linked Image]

Re: Schulte tables with notes
Nahum #3024536 09/13/20 04:27 AM
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 3,665
N
Nahum Offline OP
3000 Post Club Member
OP Offline
3000 Post Club Member
N
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 3,665
Originally Posted by barc
Nahum, I'm not sure what you are trying to suggest about this. I'm quite certain the Schulte table was originally designed to measure specific attentional properties in human cognition.
It was at the beginning, but has changed - full of examples of inventions for one purpose, which are used for a completely different. For example, melodica was created as an instrument for children; I turned it into an auxiliary tool for the development of musical and harmonic hearing, as well as a sense of rhythm.
However, take a look at wikipedia in different languages about Schulte tables.

Quote
I suggest you look into the fields of Psychology relating specifically to cognition and sensations/perceptions if you haven't already.
You, apparently, have not read my other posts in other threads. For 48 years, my profession as a teacher has always obliged to do this.


Quote
Attention isn't something that can be trained as far as I know.
I would be glad to see specific studies on this topic.

Re: Schulte tables with notes
barc #3024641 09/13/20 11:58 AM
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 2,418
2000 Post Club Member
Online Content
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 2,418
Originally Posted by barc
Attention isn't something that can be trained as far as I know.
Some kind Korean friends at university showed me some secrets to boost attention.

In a nutshell, they recommended allocating say 55 minutes to focused study followed by 5 minutes break. During the 55 minutes:

- No distractions were allowed (turn off the phone, close the computer, no talking, no eating, no gum, no going to the rest-room, etc.

- Glued to the chair. No getting up for any reason.

- Drinking water or unsweetened beverages was permitted.

- They also recommended using earplugs and a baseball cap to reduce audio & visual distractions.

They told me to start with a shorter time span, even 15 min regimen and ramp up to say 2 hours after a few weeks.

These techniques revolutionized my education. I also try to eat well (including reduced sugar & salt intake), sleep a regular pattern, get some exercise, use high quality low flicker lighting, study in a low-activity environment. A university library packed 24/7 with focused premed students is motivating but not required.

I haven't looked for scientific studies behind these techniques so YMMV.

Re: Schulte tables with notes
Nahum #3024644 09/13/20 12:04 PM
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 2,418
2000 Post Club Member
Online Content
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 2,418
Originally Posted by Nahum
Everyone knows Schulte tables with numbers and letters, used to improve the reading process. I wonder if there is a similar one containing notes?
Never heard of the Schulte tables. This is a fantastic idea Nahum. Much more engaging than basic flashcards.

Re: Schulte tables with notes
newer player #3024676 09/13/20 01:16 PM
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 3,665
N
Nahum Offline OP
3000 Post Club Member
OP Offline
3000 Post Club Member
N
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 3,665
Originally Posted by newer player
Originally Posted by Nahum
Everyone knows Schulte tables with numbers and letters, used to improve the reading process. I wonder if there is a similar one containing notes?
Never heard of the Schulte tables. This is a fantastic idea Nahum. Much more engaging than basic flashcards.
The pianist Ilan Rechtman told me that his first teacher taught him to read notes, covering the rest of the text around with two white sheets, and then gradually pushed them apart ( already wrote about the patent here); from here my idea was born.

Re: Schulte tables with notes
Nahum #3025496 09/16/20 03:23 AM
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 3,665
N
Nahum Offline OP
3000 Post Club Member
OP Offline
3000 Post Club Member
N
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 3,665
The main problem in reading music is what to read and where to look. The natural reaction is to see a note, read it and play it right there. This is an accurate reflection of reading the letters out loud; and later, after training, you can accelerate the pace of the process. But this is the mistake: to increase the rate of reading letters-notes, instead of combining them into groups, and reading in large fragments.
In school reading lessons, this happens instinctively and uncontrollably (unfortunately). Instinctively: we read words or two or three words at a glance; uncontrollable: no one asks for more; and everyone is left to himself - what he grabs, he grabs! The golden age of learning unfamiliar skills is leaving forever; and with growing up, the process of reading a text imperceptibly begins to be accompanied by a sense of pleasure from having a skill; and this is a strong brake on the restructuring of the skill to look between words and over phrases and sentences.
It is for this purpose that Schulte tables are used; although they were originally created for research purposes. I propose to re-transpose the principle of working with Schulte to the musical text; where there are the same problems: horizontal reading and vertical reading. Improving reading skills occurs due to the gradual expansion of peripheral vision, allowing you to read a large portion of the text at a time. In the examples, red crosses indicate where to look.

[Linked Image]


Moderated by  Ken Knapp 

Link Copied to Clipboard
(ad)
Pianoteq
PianoTeq Karsten Collection
(ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
Download Sheet Music
Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Favorite mass?
by chopinetto - 09/23/20 06:51 PM
Dilemma-help
by Cutec - 09/23/20 05:35 PM
Vose & Sons Serial Number(s)
by piperbill - 09/23/20 05:03 PM
Buying first piano - Kawai 506n
by hmm2135 - 09/23/20 03:45 PM
What's Hot!!
News from the Piano World
3,000,000+!
------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums RULES & HELP
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
Forum Statistics
Forums41
Topics201,783
Posts3,006,179
Members98,650
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Please Support Our Advertisers


Faust Harrison 100+ Steinways

Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver

 Best of Piano Buyer

PianoTeq Bechstein
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads



 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter |


copyright 1997 - 2020 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.4