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Re: Mac vs PC?
MacMacMac #3024942 09/14/20 10:35 AM
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That's good to know - have you compared wasapi to the asio4all driver?

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Re: Mac vs PC?
OzarkCDN #3024962 09/14/20 11:21 AM
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Originally Posted by OzarkCDN
That's good to know - have you compared wasapi to the asio4all driver?

I've not used ASIO4All since I got the Presonus box around ten years ago. The latter came with its own ASIO driver, so there was no longer a need to use ASIO4All.

Re: Mac vs PC?
MacMacMac #3024986 09/14/20 12:09 PM
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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
The days of poor latency are fading into history.
Originally Posted by anotherscott
"I had latency I couldn't get rid of, but it was fine with an external interface" is not Dell-specific... it seems to be the case with most (maybe all) PCs... and not Macs. That's one of the things we've been talking about.

Years ago I had terrible latency using the internal audio on my 2005-era Dell laptop. That's why I bought an external interface.
I assumed I'd always need one. And anyway I needed the MIDI ports, too, because USB/MIDI was a bit wonky in Windows XP.

Recently I discovered that the WASAPI (Whuzzzzup!) interface works just fine.
Even with this Dell desktop's internal Realtek-based audio, the latency is good.
Not as good as with the Presonus with ASIO. But quite acceptable, and far better than what I got in my my XP-based no-WASAPI days.

Had I started into this today instead of in 2009 I'd likely not buy the external interface at all.

External interfaces are not just manufactured to just have better latency. There are many other advantages. better ADC/DAC, better amplifier for both headphones and speakers, MIDI I/O better mic pre amps.

You can't have decent amp and ADC/DAC in a laptop that have direct influence on the latency!

Last edited by Abdol; 09/14/20 12:11 PM.

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Re: Mac vs PC?
OzarkCDN #3024999 09/14/20 12:41 PM
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I've been using my vpc1 via usb... and didn't even think about using the midi connections for my UMC204hd. I'm still pretty green around music technology - but if I used the vpc1 with the midi instead of usb (having to power the vpc1 with an external ps right?? or can I leave usb connected for power?) would I just use the vpc1 -> midi out -> behringer -> usb to pc/mac? I'm not quite sure if there would be any reason to use the vpc1's midi input, is there (ie, connecting behringer midi out -> vpc1 midi in)

Re: Mac vs PC?
OzarkCDN #3025021 09/14/20 01:07 PM
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WASAPI driver latency is usually so high, because general purpose WASAPI drivers use Shared Mode. However if AI maker offers proprietary WASAPI Exclusive or WDM-KS (Kernel Streaming) driver - these can deliver latency similar to ASIO.
By the way, ASIO4ALL is wrapper around WDM-KS driver - it can't be used without WDM, this is why it never worked with Win95 or NT.


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Re: Mac vs PC?
OzarkCDN #3025032 09/14/20 01:33 PM
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It is not the driver which decides if the WASAPI is shared or exclusive. It is the application. With Reaper, we have the choice. But we can have applications which don’t propose the exclusive mode.


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Re: Mac vs PC?
OzarkCDN #3025058 09/14/20 02:21 PM
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Quote
Remember that MacOS is built on a "monolithic OS", namely Unix, which dates back to the '60s and operation of telephone switches and networking gear - updated to be sure, but so has Windows.
Multi-tasking and asynchronous I/O were well understood by the 1970's. If you look at the typical features of a state-of-the-art operating system in the 1970's as implemented in Unix systems and DEC proprietary operating systems, I think NT4 was when Windows caught up to that, and Windows 2000 was the first with widespread usage.


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Re: Mac vs PC?
OzarkCDN #3025103 09/14/20 04:10 PM
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I would add that the design center of Unix was software development, not control of telephone switches.


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Re: Mac vs PC?
OzarkCDN #3025105 09/14/20 04:29 PM
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UNIX is just a set of API the OS must conform to, implementations can be very different.
UNIX-RT and UNIX-RTR both were true real time OSes with UNIX layer.


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Re: Mac vs PC?
VladK #3025133 09/14/20 06:33 PM
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Originally Posted by VladK
UNIX is just a set of API the OS must conform to, implementations can be very different.
That may be true today, but was not true in the 1970's.


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Re: Mac vs PC?
OzarkCDN #3025162 09/14/20 08:04 PM
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Yes, IEEE POSIX standardization began in 80th. Before that all versions of UNIX were based on the source code licensed by AT&T to other vendors, and all major version updates were from AT&T.
The first major split happened only when free BSD NET/1 was released, and this was 1989, right after the first IEEE standard was published.

Last edited by VladK; 09/14/20 08:05 PM.

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Re: Mac vs PC?
VladK #3025174 09/14/20 08:58 PM
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Originally Posted by VladK
The first major split happened only when free BSD NET/1 was released, and this was 1989, right after the first IEEE standard was published.
Also about the same time, the unix-based OS for NeXT was released (which became the foundation for Mac OS X), based on Mach that originated in 1985.

Re: Mac vs PC?
OzarkCDN #3025187 09/14/20 09:27 PM
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I remember those NeXT computers - square black desktop cubes. Almost like the original mac.

Last edited by OzarkCDN; 09/14/20 09:27 PM.
Re: Mac vs PC?
VladK #3025203 09/14/20 10:59 PM
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Originally Posted by VladK
Yes, IEEE POSIX standardization began in 80th. Before that all versions of UNIX were based on the source code licensed by AT&T to other vendors, and all major version updates were from AT&T.
The first major split happened only when free BSD NET/1 was released, and this was 1989, right after the first IEEE standard was published.
That's not historically correct. The first major split was when UC Berkeley implemented what became BSD (Berkeley Standard Distribution) in the late 1970's. There was Bell Unix and Berkeley Unix. Posix started as a result of that split, as an attempt to provide a uniform platform for software portability across Unix platforms.


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Re: Mac vs PC?
Sweelinck #3025209 09/14/20 11:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Sweelinck
Originally Posted by VladK
Yes, IEEE POSIX standardization began in 80th. Before that all versions of UNIX were based on the source code licensed by AT&T to other vendors, and all major version updates were from AT&T.
The first major split happened only when free BSD NET/1 was released, and this was 1989, right after the first IEEE standard was published.
That's not historically correct. The first major split was when UC Berkeley implemented what became BSD (Berkeley Standard Distribution) in the late 1970's. There was Bell Unix and Berkeley Unix. Posix started as a result of that split, as an attempt to provide a uniform platform for software portability across Unix platforms.

Nope, intially BSD was just PDP/VAX software distribution package (Berkeley Software Distribution - Pascal compiler, ex, vi, c shell, tty, etc) built on top of AT&T Unix code when Thompson worked in Berkeley. BSD added new utilities, its own networking stack, and still used but slowly replaced AT&T code until Net/2 which was first BSD competely free from AT&T code.

You are right though that POSIX was needed because System V and BSD became technically completely independent, both were widely used by big guns (System V - IBM, HP; BSD - DEC, Sun) and there was risk of application incompatibility nobody was interested in.

Last edited by VladK; 09/14/20 11:41 PM.

Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools because they have to say something. (falsely attributed to Plato)
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Re: Mac vs PC?
OzarkCDN #3025220 09/15/20 01:44 AM
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I believe the original BSD implementation included a denand page virtual memory system that was lacking in Bell Unix at the tine. By the time of 4.1BSD and Bell System III around 1980, Berkeley and Bell Unix were not compatible platforms for running software. Bell System V just made it worse.


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Re: Mac vs PC?
OzarkCDN #3025243 09/15/20 05:10 AM
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Is there any particular reason why some computer geek cannot develop a replacement for ASIO4ALL (which is ancient and single-client)? As in a multi-client application with a modern interface? I don't need an external box interface for piano gigs as not recording saxophone. Having to not bring a box would be great.


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Re: Mac vs PC?
OzarkCDN #3025244 09/15/20 05:12 AM
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AnotherScott, are you achieving good results with your Surface Pro? I'd like to bring VSTs to a gig without bringing my 17" day gig work laptop. Thanks...


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Re: Mac vs PC?
Skyscrapersax #3025281 09/15/20 08:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Skyscrapersax
AnotherScott, are you achieving good results with your Surface Pro? I'd like to bring VSTs to a gig without bringing my 17" day gig work laptop.
I was happy with the results in my limited experimentation, but never actually gigged with it or stressed it much. I added an Alesis Control Hub to get the latency down, which worked well since it was a small, inexpensive box that gave me audio out AND the MIDI in jacks (which is important because the SP only has one USB port). I ended up adding a small USB hub anyway because I had to connect an iLok, but that's not always necessary, there are lots of VSTs that don't need iLok, and even those that do can now often work without the physical dongle.

BTW, I had previously briefly experimented with the first Surface Pro, but found its screen was too small (it's 10.6" instead of the SP4's 12.3"). Too many Windows apps just don't scale down well, and that was below my threshold of usability. If you need something super small to enhance your rig, I'd give up on proper VSTs and stick with an iPad (even the iPad Mini's 7.9" works).

Last edited by anotherscott; 09/15/20 08:32 AM.
Re: Mac vs PC?
OzarkCDN #3025293 09/15/20 09:12 AM
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Robin Vincent designs computers for professional audio studios in the UK.

He also has a series of videos on the SurfacePro for homegamers, with recommended tweaks. He recommends certain SurfacePro models below.

http://surfaceproaudio.com/

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