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Re: Kawai ES920 VS Yamaha P515
onaiplatigid #3024816 09/13/20 11:15 PM
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I don't know if this was mentioned already, but the ES920 only weighs 37.5 lbs vs 50-52 lbs for the MP7SE or ES8.


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Re: Kawai ES920 VS Yamaha P515
Sweelinck #3025059 09/14/20 02:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Sweelinck
I don't know if this was mentioned already, but the ES920 only weighs 37.5 lbs vs 50-52 lbs for the MP7SE or ES8.
P515 is also nearly 50 lbs.


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Re: Kawai ES920 VS Yamaha P515
onaiplatigid #3025065 09/14/20 02:41 PM
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Usually you get coupons on the P-515 (I got mine for 1275 USD).


Finally bought the P515
Re: Kawai ES920 VS Yamaha P515
onaiplatigid #3025097 09/14/20 03:49 PM
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Originally Posted by onaiplatigid
So, how much better is the new ES920 than P515?

At a quick glance:

Yamaha P-515:
- top range sound engine (Binaural CFX Grand used in SH2-tier hybrid pianos)
- mid-range Clavinova action (Natural Wood X, previously top range from CLP-575)

Kawai ES920:
- mid range sound module (Kawai CA59 tier)
- bottom range plastic action (Kawai CN29 tier)

Here in Europe P-515 is sold substantially cheaper than ES920.

Kawai's new slab isn't really an answer to Yamaha's offer.


Richwood RD-17C-CE | LaMancha Rubi CM-N | Yamaha P-515
Re: Kawai ES920 VS Yamaha P515
onaiplatigid #3025100 09/14/20 03:57 PM
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I preferred the SK-EX on the Kawai HI-XL sound engine to any piano on the P-515 hands down. Others may feel differently, but it was not ambiguous for me when I auditioned them.


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Re: Kawai ES920 VS Yamaha P515
onaiplatigid #3025545 09/16/20 08:29 AM
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Near ‘Californee-Way’?

Well, I have a present for you: used P-515 with stand/pedal-board for $800.

Assuming it’s in excellent condition, get it down to $700 and you have yourself a good deal.



P.S.

Triple-check the action for any abnormalities; including but not limited to ‘loud/odd’ sounding notes.

Don’t blame Pete if you end up buying a lemon. It is your responsibility to make sure everything works perfectly fine!



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Re: Kawai ES920 VS Yamaha P515
JoeT #3025566 09/16/20 09:15 AM
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Originally Posted by JoeT
[...]
Kawai ES920:
- mid range sound module (Kawai CA59 tier)
- bottom range plastic action (Kawai CN29 tier)
RHIII is not a "bottom range plastic action". Actually it's the top range of the Kawai plastic actions. Their bottom range plastic action is the RHC used in the ES110.

Re: Kawai ES920 VS Yamaha P515
JoeT #3025583 09/16/20 09:58 AM
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Originally Posted by JoeT
Originally Posted by onaiplatigid
So, how much better is the new ES920 than P515?

At a quick glance:

Yamaha P-515:
- top range sound engine (Binaural CFX Grand used in SH2-tier hybrid pianos)
- mid-range Clavinova action (Natural Wood X, previously top range from CLP-575)

Kawai ES920:
- mid range sound module (Kawai CA59 tier)
- bottom range plastic action (Kawai CN29 tier)

Here in Europe P-515 is sold substantially cheaper than ES920.

Kawai's new slab isn't really an answer to Yamaha's offer.

The biggest guff about digital pianos ever. You don't even know the names of keybeds (NWX and RHIII) and emulation technologies (VRM vs Harmonic Imaging XL).

and Binaural samples are just an advertisement trick and nothing related to the sound engine's capabilities.


So the wood sticks inside NWX is going to make it a better action?

Let's see how P-515 isn't better than es-8 even as of today!

ES-8 was introduced 2016, P-515 was intruduced in 2018.

In 2016 ES-8 was beating every single portable digital piano Yamaha had (emulation, better key action and better implementation).

As of writing this post today, ES-8 still offers better emulation of an acoustic piano! It is more detailed. Little things such as hammer release (release velocity) are non-existant in P-515. ES-8 has 88-key's samples. Yamaha never disclouses this informatino and it is very unlikely that all the 88 keys are sampled. 88-key sampling is something unique to Yamaha's premium lines. It never shows up in CLP series.

Action-wise, RHIII has a better hardware/software integration and resembles to an acoustic better. The weight distribution along the key is better than NWX. NWX's escapement is subtle compared to an acoustic piano which is not the case for RHIII.

Sound is completely subjective but Harmonic Imaging XL and samples in ES-8 sounds closer to a Kawai piano than P-515 to a Yamaha piano due to better sampling (if you like Kawai acoustics of course).

That being said, ES-8 was introduced way before P-515! P-515 being intruduced later it still can't out-spec ES-8. Even today!


Cheaper means more affordable means higher sales. It doesn't mean it is better whatsoever.

And there is a reason why P-515 is cheaper!

Last edited by Abdol; 09/16/20 10:01 AM.

Kawai MP7SE, Yamaha MOTF XF6, Yamaha WX5, Yamaha Pacifica 112v
Re: Kawai ES920 VS Yamaha P515
magicpiano #3025598 09/16/20 10:36 AM
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Originally Posted by magicpiano
Originally Posted by JoeT
[...]
Kawai ES920:
- mid range sound module (Kawai CA59 tier)
- bottom range plastic action (Kawai CN29 tier)
RHIII is not a "bottom range plastic action". Actually it's the top range of the Kawai plastic actions. Their bottom range plastic action is the RHC used in the ES110.

The "bottom-range" moniker was considering the entire range of actions. All plastic actions are in bottom range, as you find them in bottom range digital pianos like the Kawai CN series. The mid range of Kawai digital pianos (CA) is all fully wooden actions, so no Kawai ES contains a mid range action as matter of fact. And that's simply what my quick assessment was about.


Richwood RD-17C-CE | LaMancha Rubi CM-N | Yamaha P-515
Re: Kawai ES920 VS Yamaha P515
Abdol #3025605 09/16/20 10:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Abdol
and Binaural samples are just an advertisement trick and nothing related to the sound engine's capabilities.

The "advertisement trick" is an extra separate sample recording. That means a current Yamaha digital contains at least three premium concert grand piano samples: Stereo CFX Grand, Binaural CFX Grand, Stereo Bösendorfer Grand. These are from three separate sampling sessions and not recycled older samples, which are available additionally (like C3 Studio Grand).

Quote
So the wood sticks inside NWX is going to make it a better action?

As a matter of fact it's leaps and bounds ahead of any plastic action. Which is no wonder, it comes from a previously top of the line Clavinova.

Quote
As of writing this post today, ES-8 still offers better emulation of an acoustic piano! It is more detailed. Little things such as hammer release (release velocity) are non-existant in P-515. ES-8 has 88-key's samples. Yamaha never disclouses this informatino and it is very unlikely that all the 88 keys are sampled. 88-key sampling is something unique to Yamaha's premium lines. It never shows up in CLP series.

Your guesswork is entirely wrong. The P-515 features release velocity. Both in the sound engine and via MIDI. And no CFX digital piano was ever sample-stretched. May I remind you, that a P-515 is essentially a Clavinova CLP-575 slab edition with additional features like the USB audio interface?

The latter is two generations back now, but was a great deal in 2018. If Kawai wants a slab competitive with a P-515 it needs to surpass the ex-premium (now midrange) Clavinova model.


Richwood RD-17C-CE | LaMancha Rubi CM-N | Yamaha P-515
Re: Kawai ES920 VS Yamaha P515
JoeT #3025633 09/16/20 12:01 PM
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Originally Posted by JoeT
The "bottom-range" moniker was considering the entire range of actions. All plastic actions are in bottom range, as you find them in bottom range digital pianos like the Kawai CN series. The mid range of Kawai digital pianos (CA) is all fully wooden actions, so no Kawai ES contains a mid range action as matter of fact. And that's simply what my quick assessment was about.

Who said that? Is the wood stick going to make it a better action?

Quote
The "advertisement trick" is an extra separate sample recording. That means a current Yamaha digital contains at least three premium concert grand piano samples: Stereo CFX Grand, Binaural CFX Grand, Stereo Bösendorfer Grand. These are from three separate sampling sessions and not recycled older samples, which are available additionally (like C3 Studio Grand).

Like I said: Binaural has nothing to do with having a better sound engine. It is not of everyone's interest and these samples are only "partially" decent through headphones. For live performance they sound awkward. They don't sit nice in the mix and no professional will ever record any audio tracks with binaural samples.

Binaural is targeting home users.

Quote
As a matter of fact it's leaps and bounds ahead of any plastic action. Which is no wonder, it comes from a previously top of the line Clavinova.

Don't get emotional. The wood inside the keys only contribute to quiter keys. Hallow keys amplify finger impacts. The mechanics and the action has nothing to do with having wood inside the keys.

If you want to sound like someone serious and knowledgeable, discuss about the lenght of the keys, the weight distrubtions, the levers etc.


Quote
Your guesswork is entirely wrong. The P-515 features release velocity. Both in the sound engine and via MIDI. And no CFX digital piano was ever sample-stretched. May I remind you, that a P-515 is essentially a Clavinova CLP-575 slab edition with additional features like the USB audio interface?

There was a discussion about this issue here and you participated in it pretty much like the way you posted here:

http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2836114/yamaha-p515-note-off-velocity.html

Instead of posting imaginary responses I highly suggest you to use a software like pocketMIDI

pocket midi link

and use to observe the midi signals generated by (potentially your) P-515 when you release the keys.


USB audio interface is only nice if you are cheap and you don't want to spend money on it. I prefer external interface and to me a professional scenario is to have spdif or toslink outputs. I don't care about the audio interface.

An example:

If I buy the best and most expensive an all-in-one scanner, printer fax machine or will it produce the same out put as if I buey the best of these separeately? Nope.

Quote
The latter is two generations back now, but was a great deal in 2018. If Kawai wants a slab competitive with a P-515 it needs to surpass the ex-premium (now midrange) Clavinova model.


I think owning a Kawai requires a higher levels of understanding of ones needs. If you don't know what you're looking for, P-515 is always a better option.


Kawai MP7SE, Yamaha MOTF XF6, Yamaha WX5, Yamaha Pacifica 112v
Re: Kawai ES920 VS Yamaha P515
JoeT #3025638 09/16/20 12:18 PM
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Originally Posted by JoeT
The latter is two generations back now, but was a great deal in 2018. If Kawai wants a slab competitive with a P-515 it needs to surpass the ex-premium (now midrange) Clavinova model.

It's natural to "root" for what you bought, but this level of self-induced confirmation bias is bordering on ridiculous.
They all have their pros and cons.

If you can't see positives AND negatives for each of the "big 3" slabs (the P515, FP90, and now the ES920) you are incapable of objectivity.


Pianist, teacher, apprentice technician, internet addict.
Piano Review Editor - Acoustic and Digital Piano Buyer
Re: Kawai ES920 VS Yamaha P515
onaiplatigid #3025640 09/16/20 12:19 PM
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The ES 920 is a stage piano. It should not have a wooden action for all kinds of reasons, not least of which is weight, but also resistance to sudden changes in heat, humidity, and other accidents of frequent transportation. I played on a Yamaha console with wooden keys, but didn't notice any practical difference (honestly, I couldn't get past the synthetic metallic tones in the piano samples as rendered by the built-in speakers).

I'm happy with my ES8, but am starting to drool over the light weight of the ES 520 as a gigging instrument (18 lbs lighter than the ES8 is very significant). I don't need the auto accompaniment or USB features for gigs: just a good solid keybed, convincing piano samples, robust internal speakers, and 1/4-inch line outs. But I would love to have it easier to get into and out of my car.


Rodney Sauer
Kawai KG-2E • Kawai ES8
Re: Kawai ES920 VS Yamaha P515
JoeT #3025645 09/16/20 12:37 PM
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Originally Posted by JoeT
Originally Posted by magicpiano
Originally Posted by JoeT
[...]
Kawai ES920:
- mid range sound module (Kawai CA59 tier)
- bottom range plastic action (Kawai CN29 tier)
RHIII is not a "bottom range plastic action". Actually it's the top range of the Kawai plastic actions. Their bottom range plastic action is the RHC used in the ES110.

The "bottom-range" moniker was considering the entire range of actions. All plastic actions are in bottom range, as you find them in bottom range digital pianos like the Kawai CN series. The mid range of Kawai digital pianos (CA) is all fully wooden actions, so no Kawai ES contains a mid range action as matter of fact. And that's simply what my quick assessment was about.
IMHO the CN series is middle-range. CA series is high-range (apart from the CA49 which is a strange hybrid thing: a CA29 with wooden keys, so it has the action of the superior models, but the engine/features of the cheapest DP of the CN series).

That's my classification based on both the action and the piano engine:

low-range DPs (HI engine): ES110, KDP110
middle-range DPs (PHI engine): ES520, CN29, CN39, CA49
high-range DPs (HI-XL engine): ES920, MP7SE, MP11SE, CA59
top-range DPs (SK-EX Rendering engine): CA79, CA99, NOVUS series

Re: Kawai ES920 VS Yamaha P515
terminaldegree #3025647 09/16/20 12:39 PM
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Originally Posted by ColoRodney
The ES 920 is a stage piano.

It's a slab piano.

Quote
It should not have a wooden action for all kinds of reasons, not least of which is weight, but also resistance to sudden changes in heat, humidity, and other accidents of frequent transportation.

For actual stage pianos, they are pretty standard now. The Roland RD-2000, Yamaha CP88 and Kawai MP11SE all have wood in their actions. These trickled down to slabs like Roland FP-90 and Yamaha P-515.

Originally Posted by terminaldegree
If you can't see positives AND negatives for each of the "big 3" slabs (the P515, FP90, and now the ES920) you are incapable of objectivity.

Thankfully as a customer, I'm not obliged to any objectivity. The deal-breaker on the FP-90 (which is the most expensive of the bunch) is the "modeled" sound. I can't stand it.


Richwood RD-17C-CE | LaMancha Rubi CM-N | Yamaha P-515
Re: Kawai ES920 VS Yamaha P515
onaiplatigid #3025649 09/16/20 12:49 PM
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Funny because I'm one of the ones that likes the modeled sound of Roland. That is why I always say you need to try before you buy smile


All these years playing and I still consider myself a novice.
Re: Kawai ES920 VS Yamaha P515
magicpiano #3025654 09/16/20 12:56 PM
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Originally Posted by "magicpiano"
IMHO the CN series is middle-range.
There is no "range" below the CN series, it's the lowest end of Kawai's digital piano offerings, starting with the Kawai CN17 model at below $1000.

Quote
CA series is high-range (apart from the CA49 which is a strange hybrid thing: a CA29 with wooden keys, so it has the action of the superior models, but the engine/features of the cheapest DP of the CN series).

The top range is now the Novus (NV) series. Concert Artist (CA) sits right in the middle. It has a lower and a higher tier with two models in each.


Richwood RD-17C-CE | LaMancha Rubi CM-N | Yamaha P-515
Re: Kawai ES920 VS Yamaha P515
JoeT #3025656 09/16/20 12:58 PM
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Originally Posted by JoeT
Originally Posted by ColoRodney
For actual stage pianos, they are pretty standard now. The Roland RD-2000, Yamaha CP88 and Kawai MP11SE all have wood in their actions. These trickled down to slabs like Roland FP-90 and Yamaha P-515.

[quote=terminaldegree]If you can't see positives AND negatives for each of the "big 3" slabs (the P515, FP90, and now the ES920) you are incapable of objectivity.

Thankfully as a customer, I'm not obliged to any objectivity. The deal-breaker on the FP-90 (which is the most expensive of the bunch) is the "modeled" sound. I can't stand it.

Your impression of "pretty standard" is only meaningful to you!

CP88 has the worst action in its class and its the same as NWX without the escapement (X means escapement). All of these have folded action except MP11SE. MP11SE has long keys and its action is totally different. MP7SE is the direct competitor of RD-2000 and has plastic keys (RHIII same as ES-8).


From CLP-575 and P-515 user manual:

Quote
Key Off Sample (Setting display):

Determines the volume of the key-off sound (the subtle
sound that occurs when you release a key) which is
available only for some Voices. For Voices to which this
effect is applied, refer to the Voice List (page 107).

It's range is between 0-10 and it is a static value. This is different from the release velocity in ES-8 which triggers the hammer noise. The quicker you release the keys the louder the hammer noise gets. The volume is dynamically set based on the release velocity. This doesn't exist in P-515 and specifically CLP-575.


Sure you're not obliged to any objectivity but sounding like a fool is the direct result of participating in an argument without being objective.


Kawai MP7SE, Yamaha MOTF XF6, Yamaha WX5, Yamaha Pacifica 112v
Re: Kawai ES920 VS Yamaha P515
EPW #3025657 09/16/20 01:00 PM
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Originally Posted by EPW
Funny because I'm one of the ones that likes the modeled sound of Roland. That is why I always say you need to try before you buy smile

I did in late 2018. I tried almost all Yamaha, Kawai, Roland and Casio digital piano models in one store, including the Novus NV-10.


Richwood RD-17C-CE | LaMancha Rubi CM-N | Yamaha P-515
Re: Kawai ES920 VS Yamaha P515
onaiplatigid #3025676 09/16/20 01:36 PM
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I have a Casio PX5s for quite a few years and even with the short pivot I love the versatility of the 24lb baby. I've been looking for a new console piano and will go check out the new Yamaha series but I'm in no rush with Covid. If I was replacing my slab I would definitely take a close look at the Yamaha P515.

Peace


All these years playing and I still consider myself a novice.
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